Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Western Australia/Archive 6

Paralympic workshop in Perth
As discussed at the last meetup, I'll be helping out with a workshop in Perth on editing articles about the Paralympics, as part of the project entitled "The History of the Paralympic Movement in Australia". It's on Sunday, 18 September 2011, in the Geographe Room of the State Library of WA, from 10:00AM to 5:00PM. I'm aware that it's the day after Wikipedia Takes Fremantle, where I suppose I could reenact this movie. :-) But seriously, we'd be happy to have some local Wikipedians come alongto the workshop on Sunday. The workshop page is here on Wikiversity. Graham 87 09:52, 13 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Count me in, if you don't mind someone with very little knowledge of sports or paralympics! Sam Wilson 09:59, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Not a problem at all ... TBH, I've learnt most of what I know about these subjects from working on the Paralympics project. Graham 87 12:24, 14 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm not going to make it today after all, I'm afraid. Being sent off to Melbourne tomorrow, and have a few things to do to get ready.  Hope the worshop goes well!  Sam Wilson 01:35, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
 * That's alright. It went well, but unfortunately only two Paralympians attended for the whole day. Graham 87 11:29, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Need an opinion
Does User:Orderinchaos/school navbox look OK? Don't worry about the redlinks, I'm going to fill them as something of a priority. Orderinchaos 15:11, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Maybe make the years small (6-10) . That's all I could suggest. The rest looks ok. Calistemon (talk) 16:04, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Nice work, looks great, the smaller font for years would look tidier. I'll give you a hand trying to fill the redlinks too Hughesdarren (talk) 04:00, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Is the Eastern/NOR/SOR split by official Ed Dept districts or just a "East of the Swan River and Albany Hwy is Eastern" type of allocation? I'm amazed at how many redlinks there are, I always assumed that most high schools would have pages. The-Pope (talk) 05:16, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * It was kind of arbitrary. Education only have "North Metro" and "South Metro", and until the start of this year had four (West Coast, Canning, Fremantle-Peel and Swan). I could use the NM/SM, but they might change at any moment (and for some reason their metro categories contain non-metro locations such as Gingin and Pinjarra.) Orderinchaos 13:23, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * And yes, the redlinks surprise me too. I plan on using a template I developed to fill them (South Fremantle Senior High School is a good demonstration of it in action) - I have the key info about boundaries sitting on my hard disk, and the student figure and special programs are straight from DET Schools Online, a site which is made unnecessarily difficult to reference by its formatting. If you think it's bad for metro, it's even worse for country, btw. Orderinchaos 13:26, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * To answer the question, the navbox looks fine ;-) cygnis insignis 11:20, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Location Map of Perth Metropolitan Area
I've hacked together made a Perth metro location map for suburb infoboxes. At the moment the map is rough and the coordinates aren't 100% accurate. There's some examples in my sandbox. If anyone can assist with coordinates and map skills in general, that'd be great, as I'm a complete amateur at this! Outrune (talk) 11:12, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * You've done well. It looks good in the articles too. Moondyne (talk) 05:12, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks =) Outrune (talk) 00:04, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

inneresting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_official_openings_by_Elizabeth_II_in_Australia#

there is no mention of forrest place and her royal highness - anyone with a good ref for that? SatuSuro 01:47, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Pretty sure she opened Forrest Chase, the shopping complex. I can check the plaque tomorrow. Hack (talk) 14:04, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Merging LGAs
While editing English city and district articles, I've noticed there's a large handful of city articles that cover both the settlement and its local authority in one single, combined article. The rules are that such articles apply if the local authority is considered to cover the same area and boundaries as the actual city itself (see WP:UKDISTRICTS, or Birmingham and Nottingham for examples).

Could this work for Australian city/LGA articles? I think this could very easily be applied to Fremantle and City of Fremantle, possibly Joondalup also. Outrune (talk) 12:13, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't think so, as all WA LGAs other than Peppy Grove cover more than one suburb. The-Pope (talk) 14:33, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Agreed with The-Pope. Like most New World settled countries, Australia heavily relies on constructs in its administration - by constructs I mean, things with a legal definition which are created for administrative purposes but don't really enter the public consciousness in any meaningful way (except maybe when paying their rates, but for example in the case of land districts or townsites, not even then). The fact we are New World settled countries means that what was reality just 50 or 100 years ago is no longer - Kanowna was once a thriving, expansive town but now is gone, every one of the blue markers here was an established town, and so on. Most people wouldn't know that anything south of Stephen Street (a CBD street) in Bunbury is deemed to be outside the gazetted Townsite of Bunbury used for land administration purposes. Meanwhile, anything north of Scarborough Beach Road or south of the Canning River didn't exist until World War II and in many cases much later. That lack of permanency means that urban settlements and the constructs applied to them are often way out of whack - the City of Stirling, for instance, has the boundaries it does because it was initially defined as the entire outer limit of Perth in 1871 (including Wanneroo/Joondalup, Bayswater and a few others in its initial form). The fact Beach Road separates Stirling from Wanneroo was an almost arbitrary decision made in 1902, some 70 years before the road was actually built. The oddly shaped Melville/Canning/Cockburn boundary was an arbitrary line designed to ensure now historic estates all fell under one area of administration, with decisions made in part based on horseback distances - one of those decisions left council boundaries running through people's living rooms in the suburb of Willetton, which was only fixed a year or two ago. Boundaries in rural areas often relate to historic land ownership on estates that no longer exist and in some cases have been abandoned. Boundaries in the Bunbury area date from 1950, before it had its population boom, and one or two of them which seemingly make sense simply happened because one body ran out of money and someone thought merging it with a financially sound neighbour was a good idea. Additionally, in rural areas the district may well be huge compared to the town it's named after - the Shire of Carnarvon is one good example - or may be confusing - the Shire of Dardanup may have been historically based in Dardanup, but since Bunbury's population explosion, the lion's share of the Shire's population actually live in Eaton and adjoining urban estates. So I think it's a good idea to leave towns/suburbs/urban centres on one hand, and LGAs and land districts on the other, as separate. (Sorry that got a bit long :P ) Orderinchaos 19:30, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The Pope and Orderinchaos I concur with, best not to play with such things SatuSuro 22:33, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, & thanks for your essay OIC, once again a fascinating read. Outrune (talk) 22:39, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Urgent photo request
I was wondering if any Perth based editors are able to snap a photo of the last remnants of the Perth Entertainment Centre before it is completely demolished. I tried today, but my phone camera isn't good enough. Best spot is from the overpass to the west of it or from the median strip in Wellington St, with the new arena in the background. Thanks, The-Pope (talk) 08:24, 4 November 2011 (UTC)


 * There's some nice half-demolished photos of it here, if that helps. Outrune (talk) 08:43, 4 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I have a whole bunch of photos taken while it was still only about half demolished, but haven't uploaded them yet (more been a factor of time than anything else). Will go in tomorrow and see what I can get. Orderinchaos 17:47, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Just noting I did get these and will upload them when I get time. Orderinchaos 12:30, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

In dark corners...
Subiaco_Marist_Cricket_Club at is considered a ripe target for afd by tothersiders - worth checking out to see if we can stay them and keep them their side of the nullarbor ... SatuSuro 12:18, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It seems like it could be notable for its women's team... Hack (talk) 13:57, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuart_Hill_Cricket_Club - still at it - ... SatuSuro 04:18, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

New editor/photographer
Theres a new camera in the neighbourhood Raygday he's the owner of http://www.gdaywa.com/ he contacted me for help on how to contribute he also has a commons account is willing to upload photos that are on his webpage as well as fill flower requests. I've seen his stunning collection of images, that arent on his web page so be gentle while he learns, stop by say hi remember to ask if you need images, he's already provided some images at Melburnians request. Gnangarra 07:27, 12 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Awesome :) That's great news. Orderinchaos 12:31, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia Takes Joondalup
Just noting that this event takes place today from 10:30am at the Local History Library, Boas Avenue, Joondalup. (See page for further information.) Orderinchaos 23:09, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Sailing championships
Just started this new article. It'd be good if someone could take a look at it and maybe expand it a bit. I might try to get down and take a few pics sometime before I go overseas, but any pictures would be good. I've posted a similar notice on the WP Sailing noticeboard. Cheers,  I ♦  A  12:31, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Super Pit gold mine
There is a bit of a discussion at Talk:Super Pit gold mine in regards to the proper name for the mine as the current name may not be quite correct. Calistemon (talk) 10:55, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Jarrahdale
I just had to do some hasty work to bring the above up to date, and would welcome any other hands to the pump. Cheers, Bjenks (talk) 02:38, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Articles possible
Going thru my fremantle photographs preparing to upload to Commons and noticed;
 * Halco (fishing gear) has been manufacturing fishing gear since the 1950's in freo, no article yet if anyone looking to do something a little different. Gnangarra 14:19, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Spare Parts Puppet Theatre Gnangarra 14:27, 26 December 2011 (UTC) - ✅ Dan arndt (talk) 03:39, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Fly by Night Club or now the Fly by Night Musicians Club Gnangarra 14:48, 26 December 2011 (UTC) ✅ Dan arndt (talk) 07:27, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Red dog spaming
User:Abloveridge has been adding spam links to a number of articles related to the Red dog story. By the name of the user, it seems to be the owner of the website, Anthony Loveridge. I have sent him a warning but it may pay to keep an eye on it. It is pretty blatant advertising for his comercial website. Calistemon (talk) 21:45, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Wikimedians to the Games
If there are any sport fans lurking around, Wikimedians to the Games is a collaboration drive to improve Australian Paralympic articles, with the most active contributors having an opportunity to go attend the Paralympic Games and to cover the Games behind the scenes with a press pass. The top two contributors will get their airfare and accommodation paid for. :) The drive official starts on 10 January 2012. --LauraHale (talk) 09:59, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Wow how really fair, write one FA get 50 points or you need to get 200 different photographs featured for the same point value, whch isnt even possible as you can only have 2 active nominations oat one time or roughly one nomination per week, see you all in 4 years. Gnangarra 10:35, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
 * This concern is being discussed at w:Wikipedia:Australian_Wikipedians'_notice_board. John Vandenberg (chat) 23:50, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Interested anyone?
The 11th Australasian Urban History/ Planning History Conference is being held in Perth, between 5-8 February, 2012. It is jointly hosted by the State Library and UWA.

The provisional program can be found at http://www.uhph2012.com/programme. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dan arndt (talk • contribs) 04:24, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Possible help
A trove using editor is needed at Water_Corporation SatuSuro 10:55, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Roller Derby
Western Australia Roller Derby appeared on a new page list the other day. I'm just not seeing any notability outside of a couple of local/slow news day/girls in short shorts reports. How is it different from the local suburban squash/bowls/darts/pub quiz/tennis comps that we all compete in and occasionally make the papers? Other opinions welcome. The-Pope (talk) 06:14, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * There is a reasonable level of coverage of bowls in the community papers - it's not implausible that we could give it some coverage. I, for one, would laugh if someone created a pub quiz article. Hack (talk) 06:59, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

meetup 8
see Meetup/Perth/8 Gnangarra 08:23, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

1954 Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2TaLGlj6ig this video was shot in 1954 some very interesting and familiar locations. Gnangarra 13:17, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Buses, trains, ferries – I wish public transport was still like this (not to mention the cars)! Great find :)  I ♦  A  13:50, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Lame box wars
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Emu_War for an example... war being the rather odd item SatuSuro 07:43, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Wikimedians to the Games: Western Australia events
If you're participating or considering in participating in Wikimedians to the Games, you may be interested in attending the events below. They may provide an opportunity to get information to write a Wikinews article or to take pictures for points on Commons. If you're not participating, it would still be great to see people attending these events to take pictures for use on Wikipedia and Wikinews. If you do decide to attend, consider hosting a Wikimedia meetup at the end or the evening of the event, or even just letting HOPAU organisers know you are planning to attend. If you leave a message on my talk page, I can help you promote the meetup. :) If you need help with organising attendance because of transport cost issues or accessibility in terms of wanting press access, again please get in touch. :) --LauraHale (talk) 06:52, 18 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Athletics
 * Friday 16 March 2012   Athletics State Championships
 * Friday 16 March 2012   Athletics State Championships
 * Friday 23 March 2012   Athletics State Championships
 * Friday 30 March 2012   Athletics State Championships


 * Cycling
 * Sunday 18 March 2012   Cycling Super Series Road Race
 * Sunday 08 April 2012   Cycling Super Series Road Race
 * Sunday 13 May 2012   Cycling Super Series Time Trial


 * Disability Football
 * Sunday 26 February WA Paralympic Session (with match) Cambridge
 * Sunday 4 March WA Paralympic Session (Competition preparation) Gibbney Res
 * Sunday 11 March WA Paralympic Session (with match) Gibbney Res
 * Sunday 18 March WA Paralympic Session (Competition preparation) Gibbney Res
 * Sunday 25 March WA Paralympic Session (with match) Gibbney Res
 * Sunday 1 April WA Paralympic Camp TBD
 * Friday 6 April WA Paralympic Camp TBD
 * Saturday 7 April WA Paralympic Camp TBD


 * Wheelchair basketball
 * Tuesday 28 February 2012 Summer Cup Basketball B Grade Location : Herb Graham Recreation Centre
 * Sat 12/May 	 	  	The Be Active Perth Wheelcats 	vs 	Victoria Dandenong Rangers 	  	  	Herb Graham Recreation Centre
 * Sat 21/Apr 	 	  	The Be Active Perth Wheelcats 	vs 	RSL Queensland Spinning Bullets 	  	  	Herb Graham Recreation Centre
 * Sat 26/May 	 	  	The Be Active Perth Wheelcats 	vs 	Wollongong Roller Hawks 	  	  	Herb Graham Recreation Centre
 * Sun 13/May 	 	  	The Be Active Perth Wheelcats 	vs 	Victoria Dandenong Rangers 	  	  	Herb Graham Recreation Centre
 * Sun 27/May 	 	  	The Be Active Perth Wheelcats 	vs 	Wollongong Roller Hawks 	  	  	Herb Graham Recreation Centre
 * Tuesday 17 April 2012 - Saturday 21 April 2012 08:00am - 05:00pm   Wheelchair Basketball Kevin Coombs Cup Location : WA Basketball Stadium, Perth, WA, AUS


 * Wheelchair rugby
 * Thursday 01 March 2012 Time: 7:00pm - 9:00pm Location : Herb Graham Recreation Centre, Mirrabooka


 * Laura what has happened with my request for accreditation for the athletics? Gnangarra 10:38, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Western Australian items
Are located in the current batch at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:CFDS - scroll down they are here and there if you have issue with any of the renames - make a comment soon - speedies do happen rather quickly... SatuSuro 13:06, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Busy weekend
Please note Perth Wikipedians - 2 events this weekend:

-- --
 * Meetup/Perth/8 -- Saturday --  17th March 2012
 * Wikipedia_Takes_Perth_Foreshore -- Sunday -- 18th March  2012

please tell a friend - or make an effort to attend!! - SatuSuro 08:48, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Attention needed to group page on Commons
Australian Architecture on Commons only contains examples from three states. What WA examples should we add? Orderinchaos 13:08, 26 March 2012 (UTC)


 * A good example is Sydney Architecture where they break it down to examples, suburbs and architectural styles. We have quite a few examples of federation, inter-war art deco and 20th century architecture already in Commons. Dan arndt (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah I know the pictures would already be there, just a matter of putting them on such a page in whatever fashion, be it a section under the above, or a separate page like Sydney's. I don't have the expertise to do it though. Orderinchaos 04:43, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
 * If I get the time I'll see what I can do. Dan arndt (talk) 05:16, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I've made a start on adding a Western Australia section to the exising galley page using the existing classification of city/region. Feel free to add, subtract or replace. A separate more detailed gallery page could be created for either Perth architecure or Western Australian architecture classifying by style/era.--Melburnian (talk) 07:24, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Bunbury Bridge
As far as I can tell, the 1930s bridge was intended as a temporary structure (see ref #5), but stayed in place until 1991. Does anyone have any decent references (or even personal knowledge) regarding this? Moondyne (talk) 14:56, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
 * try http://henrietta.liswa.wa.gov.au/record=b2289980~S2 http://henrietta.liswa.wa.gov.au/record=b2289977~S2 and http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/7919231 later than you might think SatuSuro 06:58, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

by R.Court. Moondyne (talk) 15:15, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Foundation Day → Western Australia Day?
Rename Foundation Day (Western Australia) to Western Australia Day, or keep as is, or wait a while?  I ♦  A  09:12, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
 * rename its passed as law, signed ff by the governor, but foundation day stay as redirect and the ifo on foundation day should ultimately become a section ion the day Gnangarra 04:34, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Is it the common name though? Hack (talk) 05:14, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I think the common name for most people* is "oh is there a public holiday next week/month, what's it for and why is it a week before the rest/most of Australia has one"
 * * other than those who go to the Foundation Day Derby. Carn South! The-Pope (talk) 05:21, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I am guessing not yet, but in my opinion moving the article (leaving the redirect of course) upon the official renaming is common sense.-- kelapstick(bainuu) 05:20, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

I suggest that it is more useful to discuss this on the article's talk page. Mitch Ames (talk) 09:35, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
 * contra - there are more likely to be passers by here than there any time - SatuSuro 11:00, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
 * But the discussion really does belong on the talk page of the article that it is about. If only we had some easy way of navigating from one page to another. Mitch Ames (talk) 11:44, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Govt agencies and departments
It seems to me that the distinction between Category:Government agencies of Western Australia and Category:Government departments of Western Australia is blurred, and becoming moreso. The Govt website http://wa.gov.au/departments-agencies no longer makers the distinction where I'm certain it once did. Should we merge the categories? Does anyone have a RS? Moondyne (talk) 14:45, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Do the departments and ministerial portfolios still match or has there been some sort of reform? Hack (talk) 06:50, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep as is - departments are departments and agencies are still different in name - the two categories still mean something quite separate - when in doubt the best RS for what is what is the SRO catalogue - http://aeon.sro.wa.gov.au/Investigator/simple.asp - their brief is that they have to know what is what and are not bound by political fashion.... SatuSuro 07:54, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

and the game is on

 * Perth Oval is moving back and forth SatuSuro 12:26, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Plaques on St Georges Terrace
Does anyone know what the background is to the plaques on St Georges Terrace (see below pic). Was there some sort of inclusion criteria for this? I notice there are two separate series - one for the sesquicentenary and one for after. Hack (talk) 08:32, 19 April 2012 (UTC)


 * The 150th celebration people had a committee that decided who would get a named slab and get walked on... see:

...in all likelihood the series that followed probably was another state government committee during the 175th celebrations... as for inclusion criteria -
 * well we have on this project page at the top http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Western_Australia/100_Most_Influential_Western_Australians - so that was historians supposedly looking at influence. SatuSuro 08:49, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Just came across a City of Perth document detailing every plaque from 1829 to 1989, including a detailed profile... Hack (talk) 09:00, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
 * excellent - would be well worth making a check against 100 Most influential... SatuSuro 09:08, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
 * You interested in the ones that aren't in the top 100 or looking for a correlation? I have done up a list of the ones that aren't in The West list. Hack (talk) 14:20, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

'Snide Cover' on Warwick
(I had to go upstairs about the admirably witty WP vandalism which was reported in today's West.) It's surely worth passing on that this clever spoof edit, which stood in the article for over a fortnight, made it to a suitably inane gossip column on page 2 of The West Australian newspaper today. Alas, because it had appeared for so long, I was unable to jeer at the paper for reporting an overnight flash of vandalism. Yes, I can supply a pic of the coverage if required. Cheers, Bjenks (talk) 05:57, 1 May 2012 (UTC)


 * one only hopes that insidecover has a small, limited and uninteresting watchlist - if they are registered in whatever form... SatuSuro 09:58, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm sure they were tipped off by a reader or another journo who looked up Warwick to see where it was. The vandalism was actually there for 6 weeks, not a fortnight.  Rarely had more than 10 page views per day though.  Until today, probably (although a lack of a spike today (maybe it's lagged?) might indicate how few Inside Cover readers actually know how to use a computer) The-Pope (talk) 12:13, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I looked myself last night, and it was pretty prominent within page 2, although I knew what I was looking for. Page stats shouldn't be available until today/tomorrow. --kelapstick(bainuu) 22:06, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Building names
The article for the building at 125 St Georges Terrace is currently located at


 * The malformed fragment above was posted by Hack. Apparently s/he had something very important to tell us about City Square (skyscraper). I wait with bated breath.... Hesperian 11:20, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm guessing something to do with this, i.e. City Square → Brookfield Place. Obviously attacked by ninjas halfway through an edit. One of the many risks involved with Wikipedia...  I ♦  A  14:07, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
 * ... ninjas? probably a fellow editors reversion that escaped an edit conflict message... as for things that are obvious... thats another story... SatuSuro 15:29, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Didn't realise I had submitted this. Basically it was a question about what to call the building at 125 St Georges Terrace. According to the project's website Brookfield Place refers to the precinct that includes the new building as well as the proposed tower 2 and the old heritage buildings. Hack (talk) 13:52, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Alinta
a conversation about the complex shenanigans that surround WA's gas supply corporate circus is occuring at the alinta article talk page - any help in unravelling the fog/haze and or slippery slope that seems to be the history of wa gas companies would be appreciated SatuSuro 11:14, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Perth airport
It would be very helpful for other eyes to check the latest - it looks like a corporate PR piece - however i didnt revert the edit as there is info that could be useful to retain - however the old problem of not a reliable source in sight... SatuSuro 10:53, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Reverted. The history is always there. Moondyne (talk) 15:50, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the checking and reversion SatuSuro 22:48, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Perth move request
(CC'ing a notification placed elsewhere)

Just a heads-up that someone's requested a page move from Perth, Western Australia to just Perth. I know there have been some heated discussions at Talk:Perth in the past over the primary usage for "Perth", so comment if you like. Orderinchaos 06:48, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Question re photos
Anyone got any photos, no matter how crappy, of the Raine Square shops before their demolishing? (Used to walk through there every single day as an early teen on the way to school... it's almost bizarre not being able to find *anything* online.) Orderinchaos 14:21, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I recall shooting around there in the '80s on Kodachrome. Finding 'em's another matter. I also did some coverage around Forrest Place, Boans demolition, etc. Will hunt around... Bjenks (talk) 17:46, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

List of Perth landmarks
An early article which is incomplete and undefined, contains no sources and is possibly redundant to Category:Landmarks in Perth, Western Australia. The items seem like a random handful plucked out of thin air.

Except for List of attractions in Sydney (which could be merged to Tourism in Sydney), I don't see similar articles for other Australian cities. I might initiate a WP:RM on that.

The counter to this is that we don't have a Tourism in Western Australia or Tourism in Perth, Western Australia.

Does anyone have any views on the Perth list? Moondyne (talk) 05:22, 8 June 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm kind of in agreement with you on the list. There is actually a scope for such a list but it belongs in portal space rather than mainspace. Orderinchaos 09:50, 8 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Agree with both above about the list - it is redundant if stand alone or absorbable into portal if it was more systematic/rigorous


 * Tourism in WA and Perth are desperately needed - not an excuse for attractions lists - but good overviews of numbers and factors encouraging - anyone want to start - I am sure we can find online and print info relatively easily... SatuSuro 10:06, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Perth Stadium requested move
Requested a move from "Perth Stadium" to "New Perth stadium" at Talk:Perth Stadium. Participate if you wish.  I ♦  A  07:43, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

GAN 1962 Commonwealth Paraplegic Games
1962 Commonwealth Paraplegic Games held in Perth has been nominated for Good Article. In the interest of full disclosure, the participant must complete a Good Article in order to be eligible to go to the London Paralympics (see W2G for more details). John Vandenberg (chat) 03:51, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Junctions Table design - Perth Metro major roads
I have made a new table design for major junctions on main roads, which I have used on the Morley Drive page I created yesterday. It is based on the freeway/highways table (as shown on Reid Highway), but with 'Junctions' instead of 'Exits', and a red title bar instead of green. I know Wikipedia says to be bold, but I thought I should ask for some feedback before spending time changing a whole lot of pages. Another issue I would like to raise for discussion is whether suburbs listed with junctions or freeway/highway exits should be destinations after turning/exiting, or the location of the junction (or maybe both?). For example, on Reid Highway, the Tonkin Highway junction lists Perth Airport & Gosnells as destinations, while on Tonkin Highway the junction is listed with Malaga, Noranda, Beechboro - the location of the intersection. Evad37 (talk) 04:29, 12 June 2012 (UTC) You can play around with the table design at the sandbox section of my example page. Evad37 (talk) 04:35, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Please keep in mind WP:RJL, a MOS guideline on road junction tables. --Rschen7754 05:06, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * To be a little more specific, I would suggest cutting down on the icons, as that's a violation of WP:MOSICON - but we typically leave the shields. The white-on-black probably isn't the best idea either. There's a lot of bold and italics, and WP:MOSBOLD and WP:MOSITALICS give guidance as to when those should be used. A lot of it is making sure the Wikipedia site uses consistent formatting, and a lot of it is helping out those with disabilities who try and use the site. --Rschen7754 21:19, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi Rschen7754, thanks for your feedback. I'm new to Wikipedia, so this is the first time I've really looked at these MOS guidelines (as I said previously, I had just modified the table from Reid Highway).
 * I'm currently working on a version of the table design in a sandbox which I hope will fix these issues.
 * Regarding some of the issues you raised:
 * Icons: According to WP:MOSICON: "Icons may be helpful in certain situations: Repeated use of an icon in a table or infobox. This should only be done if the icon has been used previously with an explanation of its purpose." I would think that as long as the intersection icons are explained, eg in a table key, and have appropriate alt tags added, they should be kept - they add significant information to junctions whilst taking up only a small amount of space, and should be still be accessable via alt tags to those with limited access.
 * White on black: This combination is actually WCAG 2 AAA Compliant, according to Snook's color contrast tool (link from WP:COLOR), although I accept it is inconsistent with other Wikipedia and WP:RJL tables
 * Bold and Italics - yes, there's too much
 * I will post a reply here when I have a new design finished. Evad37 (talk) 02:34, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I have posted an example table on Talk:Great Eastern Highway Bypass for my proposal for a uniform style for Perth junction lists. The table is based on the example M5 Table from WP:RJL and the current table at Great Eastern Highway Bypass. I believe this design satisfies the guidelines from WP:RJL, as well as most of the concerns from Rschen7754, except for icons - see my reply above. If this table is to become the preferred design, the legend row (and close of table) should be made into a template. - Evad37 (talk) 05:11, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
 * We don't put intersection control on the junction lists, generally (how would this be sourced? plus, it would be too much detail). Also, we don't need two columns for km, considering that we are starting to put conversions to US units in as well, and that would result in four columns. --Rschen7754 05:17, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Intersection type and traffic light or roundabout control can be sourced from streetmaps. Various Perth articles already have references from various editions of UBD Perth Street Directory and StreetSmart Perth Street Directory, including Ocean Reef Road, Alexander Drive, and Karrinyup, Western Australia. - Evad37 (talk) 05:32, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

I have to say that the example is a step in the right direction. I don't think the M5 example isn't exactly the best to follow. IIRC, it was tacked onto WP:RJL to get support from UK editors who, at the time, didn't care much for collaboration with US editors. Now, we have a suite of templates that can be used to create WP:RJL-approved junction lists. I started working on one for Western Australia last night, but it is a half-assed attempt at a proof-of-concept. It works, but it's far from perfect.

Right now I have two concerns. The first is icon usage, which seems to run afoul of WP:MOSICON. I pulled up the proposal page in Lynx. The alt text works great, but I saw a lot of mentions of state routes and zero links to those articles. Is there an article for National Route 94? State Route 41? The second is the use of two destination columns. In the example, they are virtually identical. Doesn't it seem silly to duplicate content like that? –Fredddie™ 05:40, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
 * There are no articles for routes in the metro area, just a list - Evad37 (talk) 06:10, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but I don't like this at all. The table and headings are too big and bright and the route and intersection icons are too big also (20px). It just overpowers the rest of the article. I was thinking that surely there's a templating system already done for these and found U.S. Route 93 in Arizona (for example). Intersection is a more Australianised term than junction, but other than that, couldn't you use those templates? See Template:Jct. Perhaps there's another intersection template I haven't seen. I hate to dampen your enthusiasm, but best to hear it now rather than later. Moondyne (talk) 05:43, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, 20px is the standard height for route markers used by Jct, but it could be customized. –Fredddie™ 05:48, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I meant that the new table icons were 25px. eg. [Image:Australian traffic lights ahead sign.png|25px]. 20px or even 18px would be better, IMHO. Moondyne (talk) 05:55, 13 June 2012 (UTC)


 * My quick thoughts are that the dual-column set up is a bit inferior and overly duplicative most of the time. For example, as a motorist drives north along U.S. Route 131, the various business loops, which meet the main freeway on either end, are only signed for one junction in each direction. Take the Big Rapids, Michigan, business loop. It meets the mainline at exits 139 and 142, and the notes will indicate that BUS US 131 is not signed at exit 139 for southbound nor at exit 142 northbound. In other cases, like the Hynes Avenue slip ramp, there's only access from northbound US 131, so that restriction is mentioned in the notes. There's no need to use two columns, one for each direction, and duplicate most of the details between the two. Any minor (or major) differences between access or signage at the junction for the two directions can be noted in the notes.


 * The second quick thought is an issue with the two distances. I think that will cause a MOS:DTT/MOS:RJL issue. You'll notice that the US 131 example I mentioned above lists the mile and kilometer distances for one direction only. The templates that create the table actually designate the primary distance unit, which is on the left and in miles for the US, as a row "header". (Compare that to Interstate 19 which is posted in metric, and has the km on the left then.) The column is colored in the same shade of grey as the column headers because each cell for the primary distance is a row header. (The background color for the kilometers is cosmetic to match.) That means that a screen reader or other accessibility software knows that the mileage is the header for each row. With the two distances, which would be the row header? (You really can only have one.) If a reader really wants to know the distance between any two points, s/he can do the arithmetic to figure it.


 * My last quick thought seems to echo others regarding the additional icons. I'd rather see well-crafted and succinct notes in a notes column than the intersection icons. As for if the intersection has the cross road on the left or the right, that's trivial. Roundabouts get mentioned in the US a lot because of their relative rarity/newness, but the other types aren't worth detailing usually. (An at-grade intersection in the middle what is otherwise a full freeway/motorway or a grade-separated junction in the middle of a non-freeway/motorway warrants a mention as an exception to the "rule" for that roadway.) Trying to boil everything down into icons works on the road because drivers don't have time to parse text at highway speeds, but in an article, there are too many possible situations to rely on them. Add to that the international audience; your stoplight signs don't look like ours here although the others match up with the North American signage pretty close. None of those except the stop sign are really duplicated in Europe. For this, best to stick to text, I think  Imzadi 1979   →   06:21, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I'm going to give in to the general consensus. If Australian templates can be created for Template:Jct, I'll help to implement them into articles. I don't really know how to make templates (looking at the US ones in Jct is giving me a headache), but Australian route shields are available on Wikimedia commons | here (national routes, routes, and state routes) and | here (alphanumeric shields). Until the templates are made, perhaps the following articles should be reverted to their previous form? Mitchell Freeway, Reid Highway, Roe Highway, Great Eastern Highway Bypass, Tonkin Highway, Morley Drive - Evad37 (talk) 07:54, 13 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks Evad - your work is appreciated :) As for the other articles, best to leave them as they are until a new template can be implemented. Orderinchaos 08:18, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I've done some experimentation, and it looks like jct will need some adjustments before it can be successfully used with Australian roads. I know that it does use bits of infobox road to do its work, and that template has already been set up for Australia, so that's half of the work done already. What will need to be fixed is that jct sometimes makes boneheaded assumptions; namely, it assumes WA always means Washington and not Western Australia, even when "country=AUS" is specified. (I have not tried NT but I assume it links to the Canadian Northwestern Territories.) Infobox road seems to override Washington to Western Australia if country=AUS. Linking and abbreviation templates will also need to be done. —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 10:00, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Discussion continued at Template talk:Jct - Evad37 (talk) 19:50, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
 * and below in section "Guidelines for intersection tables for WA's freeways/highways/main roads (WP:RJL-compliant)" - Evad37 (talk) 07:04, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

RfC - naming of Murujuga (Burrup Peninsula)
There is an RfC regarding the article name for Murujuga at Talk:Murujuga. Hack (talk) 11:39, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Mary Ann Friend
Lecture and showing at Fremantle on the 28th, possibly of interest: Hesperian 02:55, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Those poor people. I hope Hobart was a bit better. Moondyne (talk) 03:41, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Sounds like their move to Tassie didn't go too well.--Melburnian (talk) 05:00, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hmmm Lonnie politics hasnt changed much over the following 160 years - small town at the best of times SatuSuro 09:55, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Isolation of Perth
Over the years the claim that Perth, Western Australia is the most isolated capital city in the world has floated in and out of the lead paragraph of the article - anyone got a good WP:RS for that? (or not) - SatuSuro 10:50, 19 June 2012 (UTC) ✅ like a dinner - reason for being nuked at is articles talk page SatuSuro 23:11, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * For the tl;dr crowd: Auckland is about 40km more isolated. Orderinchaos 15:59, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Two odd ones - Karragullen and Kiara
Two unrelated questions:


 * 1) Does anyone here live close enough to Karragullen (either via Kalamunda/Lesmurdie or via Armadale/Kelmscott) to get a picture of a wooden sign about 450m NW of the town welcoming people to the Shire of Kalamunda? I'm trying to get a collection of municipal border signs, and this one has no public transport to it.
 * 2) At Kiara (near Lockridge/Morley), there's a site without formal protection at Morley Drive/Bottlebrush Drive which is or was reserved for a TAFE. It seems to have some interesting vegetation at it, none of which have photos at Commons or articles here.  Anyone interested in following this up? Orderinchaos 15:58, 22 June 2012 (UTC)


 * The Kalamunda border sign is located at coords -32.082065, 116.110141 (Google Maps). If anyone does go out to take the pic, Brookton Highway also needs one (tagged since 2006). - Evad37 (talk) 12:22, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Couple of general shots around Karragullen wouldn't hurt too. Orderinchaos 14:42, 25 June 2012 (UTC)


 * That Kiara site link has a full list of plant species present on the site, which would greatly assist plant identification from a spring photo excursion.--Melburnian (talk) 13:22, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah I hoped it would be of use when I found it :) Orderinchaos 14:42, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

While working on a completely unrelated article, I stumbled on the page. Colour me deletionist, but I think that topic is far too narrow to have a Wikipedia article about it ("WTF" was my first reaction to be honest), so I redirected it to Public Transport Authority without trying to merge any of the content. If anybody can do anything more with the old content, feel free. The article was obviously modelled on RailCorp Transit Officer, which isn't half-bad, really, so I haven't touched it ... but it's still quite a weird topic for an article! In any case, the RailCorp one should [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=RailCorp_Transit_Officer&diff=499598944&oldid=496670731 never] have been in Category:Law enforcement occupations. Graham 87 13:18, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is slightly bizarre. Good find, and good fix. Orderinchaos 02:38, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks. :-) I've now fixed the redirect so it goes to Public Transport Authority (Western Australia). Oops. Graham 87 03:01, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Guidelines for intersection tables for WA's freeways/highways/main roads (WP:RJL-compliant)
If you don't feel like reading the previous discussion on road junction table design, here's a brief summary
 * Road intersection/exit lists/tables for WA roads are not uniformly formatted, and some are in violation of a number of MOS guidelines. I have created templates to generate WP:RJL-compliant tables, with the help of Fredddie and Imzadi 1979

Before I start progressively updating tables in WA road articles, I would like to achieve consensus, specificly regarding the points listed below. The only update I've done so far is for the Mitchell Freeway - take a look, then come back and comment. Please leave your suggestions, indicate your support of the current situation, or indicate your support of another editor's suggestion/s. - Evad37 (talk) 15:27, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

WP:RJL has provision for two geographic columns: I chose LGA (local government area) and suburb (but kept the column title as location) when coding the templates. I had in mind that all the local governments with the Perth metro would be categorised together as Metropolitan Perth LGAs (as they are relatively small in area, especially along Stirling Highway), which is why the Mitchell Freeway table does not have an LGA column
 * A state subdivision column for the subdivision of the state within which the junction lies, such as county, district, prefecture, parish (as in Louisiana), borough (as in Alaska), or equivalent
 * A location column for the municipality or equivalent within which the junction lies, whether it be a town, city, or village.
 * If the route passes through an independent city or a consolidated city-county ... have an entry which spans both columns
 * If the roadway only passes through one geographic location, the column(s) should be omitted

Just a quick thought/comment, but for the US, if we drop the "county" column (the subdivision for each state), we have to include a "The entire route/highway/road/byway/whatever is in X County." note per MOS:RJL. Especially when these tables are rolled out in this format to additional articles, readers will eventually come to expect an LGA column, and if it's missing, the note should be provided. The reason we went to dropping the column (which wasn't always the case), is that it was felt that the tables looked bad if the first column spanned ever row of the table. If you look at the two tables on M-553 (Michigan highway), you'll see that since M-553 is only in Marquette County, it has the note. It's former sibling highway, M-554, which is covered in the same article, is only in the City of Marquette in Marquette County, so both county and location columns are dropped in favor of the expanded note, per MOS:RJL.  Imzadi 1979  →   07:06, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Discussion
 * Either the note will have to be added manually, or jcttop/core needs to be modified, because at the moment the notes are looking like:


 * }
 * instead of just Perth Metropolitan Region or Perth Metropolitan Region - Evad37 (talk) 07:59, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Half-Fixed, as shown below. However, it is missing the word "the" after "in". Also, we will need to create 100+ redirects.


 * }


 * }

WP:RJL states that the destination column should contain "locations and roads as presented on guide signs for the junction. Other locations should not be listed unless that location is extremely notable and well known; an entry in the notes column such as "Serves Missouri State University" can be used. Routes not indicated on the guide signs may be included in parentheses"
 * Issue 2.1: There are many guide signs in WA that only list a road name (and route shield if applicable), and some guide signs list only the route shield and no road name
 * My proposal: Where guide signs are complete, list these roads and locations. Where the signs are incomplete or missing, list the intersecting road/s, and major destinations. (Resolve any disputes over what to include via Wikipedia's usual policies for reaching consensus)


 * Issue 2.2: Routes not indicated on the guide signs may be included in parentheses: In my opinion, it is neater and more useful to put other roads in the notes column instead, as they will probably need a note anyway to explain how they are accessed - this is what I did for the Mitchell Freeway page: for Reid Hwy notes: "Modified diamond intersection with southbound entry ramp looped. Balcatta Road joins to the intersection of the southbound entry and exit ramps, and Reid Highway"

This looks fine to me. We attempted to use shall/should/may in the same way that the Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices uses them, namely required is "shall", recommended is "should" and optional is "may". One item of note: using the marker graphics in articles has been debated over the years, with the "anti-icon" types wanting to strip them from highway articles completely. (There was a New York state route article at FAC where reviewers wanted all of the marker graphics removed from the infobox and junction list table, except the one at the top of the infobox for the subject of the article.) The compromise has been that these graphics are only used in two specific places in the articles: the infoboxes and the destinations column of the junction/exit list tables. We don't including the icons for other highways mentioned in the notes column.  Imzadi 1979  →   17:55, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Discussion


 * Street view example at . Note the intersection level contains no guidance whatsoever beyond a single tourist-guide-coloured sign to Hillarys Boat Harbour. Orderinchaos 16:14, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

One of the WP:RJL standard colours is "#ffdddd" for "Incomplete access", meaning that some ramps/movements are missing
 * Current situation: replaced with "No exit", for where there are entrance ramp/s only - there is no exit to this street. For example, the Elder street onramp.
 * Rationale: Colour usage is noted as being optional. On some roads, many interchanges don't have full access. As the table is read as an exit list, it seems more appropriate to highlight and entrance-only interchange. Also "color should not be the only method to impart the information... the Notes or Destination column(s) must include the information", so using the standard "incomplete access" will result in more duplication than using "no exit" (as it would mean every instance of "Northbound exit only" or "Northbound exit and southbound entry only" needs to be prefixed with "Incomplete access:", rather than just listing "no exit" instead of locations in the destinations column for interchanges with entrance ramp/s only)

The US articles that use the "Incomplete access" pink don't preface their notes with "Incomplete access: ", and yet articles using it have passed FAC. The "Northbound exit and southbound entrance" note is understood to be the explanation/information required by MOS:RJL. Ditto "Western end of the X concurrency" is understood to be the explanation/information required for the "concurrency terminus" green color. Limiting Australia to "No exit" is both limiting your options and inconsistent with the MOS. The concept behind the pink to to highlight cases where access to or from all possible movement directions in an intersection or junction is not possible. The prohibition on using colors alone is designed/intended to avoid cases where the color was used and no explanation was included in the notes column.  Imzadi 1979  →   17:08, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Discussion
 * Okay, but I think entry only interchanges in areas where partial access is the norm need to be highlighted to stand out - perhaps #e6dfff (WP:COLOUR-compliant). jct could be modified so that type accepts a colour code, and obviously a custom legend would be needed. - Evad37 (talk) 06:13, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but I disagree. Entry-only interchanges are partial access... traffic from the subject highway can't exit there, which is the restriction on full access to and from the intersecting roadways.  Imzadi 1979  →   06:44, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

WP:RJL: When linking to highways, a commonly used abbreviation should be used for the displayed text for the link. For instance: I-59, A1 rather than Interstate 59 or A1 road (Great Britain) respectively.
 * Issue: There are no abbreviations used, as highways are referred to by name only, except on road signs. Additionally, very few Australian routes have Wikipedia pages - most articles are about roads as distinguished by name.
 * Current situation:Abbreviations are excluded, as they are not commonly used). Instead, the road name links to that road's article. As there will be no text next to route shield,  tags are used with the image for accessibility (with screen readers etc)

ALT text doesn't help the readers not using screen readers... using an unlinked abbreviation so that non-Australians will know what the number is or how it's abbreviated is a good thing. The Australian situation is very similar to that of the US state of Alaska. The Alaska Department of Transportation & Public Facilities only numbers about a dozen of their state highways, and the numbers don't have a 1:1 correspondence with the names. Case in point: the Seward Highway is AK-9 from its southern terminus to its junction with the Sterling Highway (AK-1), and then it's AK-1 the rest of the way to Anchorage. Even with this, Alaskan articles list both the names and the numbers for consistency, and when the highway isn't numbered, just the name.  Imzadi 1979  →   17:19, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Discussion
 * How about including an abbreviation as a Tooltip, with a link to a list of routes? For example, SR76 Morley Drive. I think the tooltip needs to be included as there are no official or common abbreviations. Linking to a list will mean that we don't have to create a heap of pages that are essentially just disambiguation or redirection pages, and readers can go straight to the road article page via the road name link. - Evad37 (talk) 05:39, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * That works too (although you probably want a space in between the letters and numbers...) and that's similar to what I've done with county road articles. State highways in Michigan are maintained by the Michigan Department of Transportation (MDOT) which has an article, but the various county road commissions lack articles, so I've tool tipped the abbreviation in the maintenance line of the infobox to spell out the full name. Anyway, the key here is that whatever the graphic stands for should have visible text present. See for instance H-58 (Michigan county highway) for an example of that in its infobox compared to M-77 (Michigan highway).  Imzadi 1979  →   06:43, 19 June 2012 (UTC)


 * On Mitchell Freeway as it currently stands, I reckon the road names should be bolded (as in Kwinana Freeway) to break up the monotonous lines of text a bit. Also having "State Route x" after each route shield seems repetitive imo. Outrune (talk) 10:38, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
 * The problem with using bold is that it would violate MOS:BOLD, which limits the use to just article title terms, table headers and captions, definition lists, some maths objects, and volume numbers of journal articles in some bibliographic formats. Whilst "State Route x" is redundant for most readers, it is necessary to maintain accessibility for those who can't see images, or choose to turn them off. The current MOS:RJL requires the roads in the list to be formatted as "Route Number (Road Name)", but I have a proposal to amend this for Australian roads on the talk page there. It would be helpful if you were to leave your opinion there - thanks, Evad37 (talk) 11:11, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

According to WP:RJL, there are "two methods for displaying concurrencies. A simple note may be placed in the notes column for the interchanges where the concurrency begins and ends, or a multi-column row can be used to mark the termini of the concurrency. Ideally, this multi-column row should span the Destinations and Notes columns, allowing the milepost and exit number to appear to the left."
 * I propose that the second method be the standard for WA. This allows more room to note anything unusual about the interchange or intersection, as well as what happens to the route after the concurrency terminus (eg Route 94 continues east as ...)

I've never been a fan of the multi-column row when it's duplicating something about another row of the table. That verbiage was added to grandfather in a method in the US that was never implemented well. (Editors were fond of using the highway marker graphics/shields in place of text without alt text in place of words.) My problem is that if the junction between US 41 and M-28 in Harvey, Michigan, is the eastern end of their concurrency, it's extra work to add a second row to the table when the notes can specify it as the end of the concurrency. IMHO, a good set of notes in the table is like a good photo caption: both are concise enough to impart the essential details of why the note/photo has been included, but leave the heavy-duty explanations for the body of the article. U.S. Route 10 in Michigan has a set of odd partial junctions in the Clare area related to the southern end of its concurrency with US 127 that requires motorists to use the business routes through town to make some of the connections. The route description section describes it in full detail so that the notes in the table don't have to.  Imzadi 1979  →   17:39, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Discussion


 * Can someone explain what a concurrency is in this case? Is this like on Wanneroo Road where for a couple of hundred metres it carries route 81 from Warwick Road to Marangaroo Drive? Orderinchaos 16:10, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
 * In short, yes. When two or more road routes share the one physical road, that is a concurrency (this may also be referred to by the unofficial term "multiplex"). For more info, see Concurrency (road). - Evad37 (talk) 16:40, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

We should have a method for choosing route direction - which end to start from for the intersection/exit list table. The US Roads Wikiproject has a comprehensive standards section, which states that "regardless of the route's length, progression should be described from south to north, west to east." Should we use this or something else?

USRD uses that order because our states fairly consistently erect mile markers so that they start with 0 at the southern or western terminus of the highway, or the southern or western entry into the state. (Mile markers reset at state lines usually). That way the articles, with some exceptions, progress from lowest to highest mile marker, and articles are kept consistent. If someone is reading all of the state-detail articles of U.S. Route 41 in geographic order, they can read them starting with U.S. Route 41 in Florida and end at U.S. Route 41 in Michigan, and never have something appear "backwards" to the rest. (There are cases where we reverse our standard directions, but that's where WP:IAR comes in on a case-by-case basis.) That said, other countries post/number distances leading away from the capital, like the motorways in the UK that are marked with their nominal distances away from London or Edinburgh. In that case, I'd suggest that the consistency is to write the articles, and mark the tables, leading away from the starting point.  Imzadi 1979  →   17:30, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Discussion
 * How would this work for roads in the metro area that don't really lead to or from the CBD, like Morley Drive, and for roads that are part of a ring road route, like Roe Highway? - Evad37 (talk) 05:44, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, I gave you two examples of how distance markings are applied. The idea in both is that the articles are written from lowest distance marker to highest distance marker. As I understand it, most of the British motorways cross the M25 around London and terminate well before reaching the city center, but their distances are nominally measured from a central point. The lowest distance marked on each isn't 0 then.
 * US beltways (aka orbitals or ring roads) have a nominal zero point. For instance, Interstate 275 (Ohio–Indiana–Kentucky) around Cincinnati has its mile marker 0 at the southern junction between I-275 and I-75 (its parent) and the numbers run clockwise from there. The numbers don't reset at state line crossings. The table in that article starts at MM0/exit 84 and follows the circle clockwise until it returns to the starting point. M-185 (Michigan highway) (a FA) is a loop around Mackinac Island that does the same, minus the exit numbers. For that, I used the location of MM 0 as the "start" and "end".
 * Either way, I brought up those examples to give you an idea of the situations in other countries so that maybe something is similar enough to clone or adapt to the Australian situation.  Imzadi 1979  →   06:57, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your reply. (I actually meant in relation to the UK system and should have specified that, sorry). Distance markers on WA roads go in both directions, and always have at least an abbreviation for the next major destination. Having previously worked at a local government, I know that all roads have start point, end point, intersections, and features listed along with distances in databases. However, this info is generally not publicly available. For local government roads, LGA borders are used as "end" points, even though the road continues into another LGA. Main Roads WA have this information available for state roads, but it is not free (Straight Line Kilometer (SLK) Books ).
 * In light of this info not being freely available, I just want a uniform system to decide on route direction, rather than just the preference of whoever creates the article. Capital city to other destination, or major regional city to minor regional city, works well for most roads, and I believe is what is already implemented. For other roads, either we leave it to the status quo, or we could use a US-style system based on compass direction, or we could use a UK-style system based on clockwise around city centre. Thoughts, everyone? - Evad37 (talk) 09:25, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Queensland has numbered exits on its motorways, but no other Australian state does; and as for other roads, there's never been anything terribly official, apart from internal systems such as Evad describes. As such, I'd say that for radial roads or roads where one end has a clear priority, start with the CBD or obvious start point (I've been doing this for Commons uploads for e.g. Wanneroo Road); for others, it's not really important as long as it's consistent. I'd personally favour west-east or north-south in roads where there's no priority. Orderinchaos 16:07, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Starting a new section down here for things applicable to multiple subsections, or not specifically addressed by something above.

The marker graphics used in compliance with MOS:RJL in good American articles are always accompanied by visible text representing what the graphic is visually imparting, whether that text is linked to another article or not. (Some articles aren't using jct, but as they are found, they're switched over; the template will keep things standardized no matter what future changes come to the MOS or other guidelines/standards.) Alt text is only beneficial for those with screen readers or those who turn graphics loading off, but as small "decorative graphics" (normally we're talking 20 pixels or so in height), these items actually aren't supposed to be given alt text. Based on this advice at FAC a few years ago, jct was set to use  on its graphics because the images are decorative (yes, they're visually informative) and the template generates the abbreviation for the highway named by the marker. Alt text isn't required at FAC these days, however the infrastructure for it in the templates (including the subtemplates of infobox road ) was left in place in anticipation of the day that it's required again, and frankly, because it's still the right thing to do. (We typically do alt text checks when reviewing articles at WP:HWY/ACR as well, even though FAC no longer requires it.)  Imzadi 1979  →   18:12, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * tl;dr, but can I say that Mitchell Freeway looks good aesthetically. Well done to all involved. Moondyne (talk) 00:52, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Very nice and clean look - the focus should always be on readers and this tells them what they want to know without distractions, and the effort that has gone into thinking this out is obvious in the above elaborations. Kudos to those involved. Orderinchaos 03:47, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Re - Imzadi: I'm not against using jct, as long as the code can be modified to display the links in whatever form is agreed to (in #4 above) for AUS roads. Also, our road guidance signs for airports have a blue background instead of green. - Evad37 (talk) 05:54, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * The icon for the "extra" can be switched to use the blue version of the airport icon for Australia. The key is that there are the subtemplates that make it very modular, and therefore, very adaptable.  Imzadi 1979  →   06:59, 19 June 2012 (UTC) update I added the switch so that the airport graphic will change for Australia. I pinged WOSlinker to pass the country through to the subtemplate jct/extra. If there are additional graphics needed, we'll need to add them in there, using switches as needed to handle countries. I also added the graphics for hospitals, which have a blue square with the white "H" in North America, Hospital sign.svg and the switch to allow WA road sign hospital symbol.png for Australia.  Imzadi 1979   →   07:38, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * How's look? (I added the tooltip to the abbreviation, and the airport icon is switching by country now.  Imzadi 1979    →    08:59, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Looks good. jct/link/AUS will need fixing, but first lists will have to be created, modified, or merged so that lists of routes exist for each route type/state combination (eg at the moment, there are different list for state routes in Perth and rural WA). I really feel that the road name should not be in brackets - MOS:RJL does not require this. I will edit the jct sandbox later to try this. - Evad37 (talk) 10:09, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Acutally, MOS:RJL does require it, see MOS:RJL with the example ""  Imzadi 1979  →   10:28, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm in agreement with Evad on this point, as road names are much more important in Australia than route numbers (whereas in the US that road would likely be known as "the NY 31"). Orderinchaos 13:16, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Then perhaps MOS:RJL should be modified to include something like "In countries that have no common or official abbreviations, abbreviations must still be included. They should have a Tooltip to inform readers of the route type and number, and should link to a list of routes. The road name may appear without brackets, and link to the road article (if it exists)" - Evad37 (talk) 14:16, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * It should also state "Note: Do not use these abbreviations elsewhere in the article, as per WP:MOS - Do not invent abbreviations or acronyms" - Evad37 (talk) 14:47, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I have put a proposal on the MOS:RJL talk page - Evad37 (talk) 05:32, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
 * - looks ok - just as long as there is as much text, as diagram would be my concern SatuSuro 09:58, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * my only observation on Graham Farmer Freeway is that the Swan river line looks weird as the colour matches partial exits rather than highlighting a geographic feature. Gnangarra 10:28, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Grahama Farmer is not MOS:RJL-compliant, but Mitchell Freeway, barring some minor adjustments is.  Imzadi 1979  →   10:30, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * but the question was ask how it looks so I presumed it had been made into an example Gnangarra 10:33, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * The question related to the formatting of that representation of GFF from the Mitchell article's table to use jct, no on the GFF article itself.  Imzadi 1979  →   10:53, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * also as we drive on the left westbound/northbound lanes should be on the left as its natural representation of the actual road alignment Gnangarra 10:33, 19 June 2012 (UTC)


 * as Mitchell freeway is compliant then it doesnt IMHO work as its too cluttered poorly representational compared to GFF. Gnangarra 10:36, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Comments/suggestions on updated tables
I have updated a number of road article interchange/intersection tables to be compliant with MOS:RJL (as modified by Imzadi's proposal) - Mitchell, Kwinana, & Graham Farmer freeways, and Reid, Roe, & Tonkin highways. I've been thinking that these tables should all have the LGA column (unless a road is in a single LGA), as this provides additional encyclopaedic information, and guidelines shouldn't be based on 'edge cases', such as Stirling Highway passing by/through eight LGAs in 12km. What does everyone think? (other comments/suggestions about the tables, as well the LGA column) - Evad37 (talk) 06:19, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm going to be bold and start updating the above articles to include the LGA column, since there seems to be consensus by silence - Evad37 (talk) 02:40, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Perth name discussion
Looks like Perth, Scotland is now a meaningless little curiosity, not worthy of anything more than a hatnote next to our magnificent boom town. Hope they cleanup ALL of the incoming links, redirects, hatnotes etc. The-Pope (talk) 14:48, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I really don't think that sort of post is helpful - esp while one of our project's founding members is before ArbCom. The whole saga has been very unfortunate to say the least and nobody really has any right to be triumphant about the end outcome (no matter what way it ultimately lands, as I suspect the drama still has a bit of life in it yet). Orderinchaos 14:57, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't watch the drama boards so I wasn't aware of what had happened since the previous moves. I do wish that I had my say at the move review (didn't know it was an active process either) but it probably would have been ignored again anyway. The-Pope (talk) 16:24, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
 * This whole episode TBH has reminded me why I hide out in my little corner on here most of the time. I put an idea to someone recently that perhaps the problem is with the erosion in number of productive editors we're left with a greater percentage of the whole being editors whose WP life revolves around process rather than content. Orderinchaos 19:40, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
 * While I am on the other side of the Perth name debate (I endorse the move and the close) - I agree wholeheartedly with OICs statement above. One of the reasons I edit less and less here at enwiki is because it isn't about content any more - it's about process. And that makes the place so utterly boring. -- Mattinbgn (talk) 20:43, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Remember our battles with the self-appointed standard-bearers over wonky CfD outcomes? I think honestly that sort of thing was a taste of what was to come when the whole place ended up going like CfD had. (And we both voted similarly on this one, for the record.) Orderinchaos 00:32, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I remember all right. "Never mind the admittedly poor outcome, we followed the process!" The CfD battles were my first realisation that what had become important here was not your contributions to the project but your knowledge of the rules. It has got worse and Enwiki has almost become a nomic. I have withdrawn now from most process-based activities other than the odd opinion here or there and the very rare admin action (mainly vandal blocks). Like you, I stick to a very small corner and hope to stay out of sight of the process-wielders as much as possible. I still remember WP:ACOTF with affection, nowadays all the effort is put into making rules. Sigh ... -- Mattinbgn (talk) 03:42, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
 * It's all started again, I'll get the popcorn. I swear there is more debating than editing these days. Hack (talk) 04:33, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Agree with these sentiments. We've become a Kafkaesque bureaucracy and our best days are behind us I'm afraid. Moondyne (talk) 10:31, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Not sure what they are on, but I would suggest anyone with good diagnostic skills should try to bottle the stuff for the middle east, they could take down the syrian regime by words alone: the capacity to consume volume and time taken to get completely out of hand and beyond what is such a simple issue, is nothing short of unfathomably absurd. SatuSuro 11:49, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Imagine running a city like this - everyone would be happily employed as judges, jurists or negotiators while the weeds take over Parliament House and the city goes broke. Orderinchaos 18:26, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
 * While everyone gets locked up for a minor offence. Bidgee (talk) 02:56, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The latest RM has been closed as no change (ie article remains as Perth). Does this mean that the cleanup of links needs to begin? Hack (talk) 05:56, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd say there's no great rush. The first ones to go over would be the suburbs and LGAs, as we have new census figures for all of them and it makes sense given there is already going to be a mass edit for that to do the other change as well. The electorate articles need to be hand-updated to explain 2013 boundary changes announced last year by the Boundaries Commission, so those can be done then. And of course template space. Not sure what other large series of note actually contain links to Perth though. Orderinchaos 07:06, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Photos for Ellenbrook area
I plan to take some photos in the Ellenbrook area in the near future, to upload to Commons. The links below are to Google Maps. Please add requests/suggestions below. - Evad37 (talk) 02:17, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Evad37's list
 * Ellenbrook
 * Bus transfer station
 * The Shops exterior
 * Woburn Park conservation area
 * The Library
 * Coolamon Oval
 * Main oval
 * Skate Park
 * Dog Exercise Area
 * Woodlake Park
 * Woodlake Shopping Centre exterior
 * Gnangara Road (from Henley Brook pedestrian overpass)
 * Gnangara Road dual carriageway roadworks
 * Aveley
 * Fast food / shops (cnr Gnangara Rd & Henley Brook Ave)
 * Lake / open space at Egerton Drive (near Gnangara Rd)
 * The Vines
 * Guard House on Vines Ave
 * Buggy Crossing on Vines Ave south of Bordeaux Ln
 * Golf Course (near the lakes)
 * Novotel Hotel
 * The Vines Apartments
 * Ausimart sign and exterior
 * Ellen Brook (from Millhouse Road bridge)
 * Henley Brook (part near Ellenbrook)
 * Fire station
 * Sandown Park

Atlantis Marine Park
Hi All,

The above article about a now defunct park in Two Rocks is in desperate need of a picture from when it was open? Was hoping an "older" WP:WA participant may have something floating around.

Thanks Five Years 14:57, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Category:Perth, Western Australia
I suppose there should now be a move request for Category:Perth, Western Australia &rarr; Category:Perth, as well as the associated subcats. Moondyne (talk) 07:03, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I object, Perth is dumb as, leave as is maybe some day somebody will have better sense... should? nah - not.... SatuSuro 13:47, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Kimberley-Perth Canal
Could someone have a look at this for me please. I have to leave now and will have limited access for a couple of days. New editor has expanded significantly with a lot of unsourced material, and is quite likely associated with John Logan and Western Agricultural Industries (WAI). Moondyne (talk) 08:34, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I dont see why it shouldnt be reverted... specially due to the lack of wp:rs SatuSuro 11:04, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Added some refs but (as far as I can tell) alot of the text is not verifiable...Much of the rest may have to be trimmed. Hughesdarren (talk) 12:20, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

User also created Kimberley to Perth Canal and WAI and Kimberley Irrigation Project which were mainly copies of same. Speedy deleted. Moondyne (talk) 07:46, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Much of whats in the article is unverifiable or speculation, and appears to be at least partly aimed at self-promotion. There may be some useful information however.  I'll look at this on the weekend. Moondyne (talk) 07:52, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I've tagged the article as pov. Mitch Ames (talk) 01:09, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Questionable template?
Haven't time to look into it myself but someone has created a template Perth landmarks and put it under a number of Perth articles. Seems like a selective and OR list to me - for example the beaches or the sports venues, to name just two. What do others think? Orderinchaos 16:45, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Definitely a very narrow and incomplete list in this template. The page the header links to, List of Perth landmarks, is also problematic in terms of OR / lacking references. Also, do we actually need a Perth landmarks template? Perhaps separate templates for buildings, parks, beaches etc. would be better. - Evad37 (talk) 07:47, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

New Article "Aboriginal cultures of Western Australia" Needs Expansion
I have begun an article on the Aboriginal Cultures of Western Australia, that needs expansion. In cross referencing it I found that there are many articles on Western Australian regions that give no information to the fact that Aboriginal people were living there before Europeans. These, I feel need modiification. John D. Croft (talk) 08:52, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Blue Waters, Perth
Hi, the above new article is seeking a picture if anyone has one available, can they please add it or if anyone lives nearby can they take one? Thanks Five Years 13:46, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I took a series of pics at an Art Deco Society open day in April this year--and have provided one. Cheers, Bjenks (talk) 05:11, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

FreopediA
Freopedia is under way, over the coming months we'll be working to turn Fremantle into a Wikitown, please come and join the fun. We are currently planning an Edit-a-thon for December 1st if you are interested in being involved or just kept upto date as things occur please join us at GLAM/Freopedia Gnangarra 11:23, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Attempted update of census data
Hello, could somebody more familiar with the ABS website and the 2011 census data than I am check the recent edits by a new user, ? I've reverted them, because the sources that he cited seem to refer to the population inside a particular postcode rather than an actual locality. Also see this relevant earlier discussion on OIC's talk page. Graham 87 12:41, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Corryn Rayney
Thoughts? Notable, or WP:NOT/WP:1E? (Article should probably be at Murder of Corryn Rayney regardless.) IgnorantArmies (talk) 10:27, 19 September 2012 (UTC)


 * The article should not be "Murder ..." until somebody is convicted of that crime. But unless she is notable for anything else, I don't think the topic is notable enough for an article (per WP:1E). Mitch Ames (talk) 12:28, 19 September 2012 (UTC)


 * there's the rub of the notability issue - daily newspaper, nightly tv coverage (over-exposure some might say) for Perth, Western Australia residents for a considerable time - to the point where the intimate rayney family issues are well exposed for the average citizen - as to her death, the details made public to date hardly suggest a self inflicted injury... SatuSuro 14:14, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
 * for anyone interested - the afd is there: - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Corryn_Rayney SatuSuro 14:27, 19 September 2012 (UTC)