Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Women in Red/Archive 103

WikidataCon 2021 - invitation to submit a proposal
Hi all. I'm writing to you as a co-curator of the 'Sister projects' track along with Susanna Ånäs for WikidataCon 2021, which will take place online on 29-31 October 2021. The conference website is at.

We would like to invite you to submit a session proposal to the track, specifically on how Women in Red uses Redlists from Wikidata to support new article creation here - but we are also open to proposals on related topics!

If you are interested, you can find information about how to submit a session proposal at, and you can access the submission form at. Please submit a session proposal through the Pretalx process so that we can review and schedule it appropriately - and make sure to mark it as a 'Sister projects' track proposal. Please note that we cannot accept a session outside of the Pretalx process. We also encourage you to submit talks to other tracks if you are interested!

Note that the deadline for submitting proposals is the 20th October - sorry for the short notice! Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 19:15, 15 October 2021 (UTC)


 * Touchy subject, insofar as Listeria has been largely borked since March (iirc) as a result of which redlists are a mess. WD's policy of not providing tools, but leaving it to users to knit their own, means there's a single point of failure outwith any of our control. We could reflect on the period, now passed, when it worked smoothly, but we could not right now encourage others to adopt a broken tool. --Tagishsimon (talk) 19:28, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
 * So you could talk about the importance of the redlists, and the issues that have been encountered when using them? Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 19:37, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I couldn't, no. Others on here might be willing to. --Tagishsimon (talk) 20:03, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
 * would you have time and inclination to develop a panel proposal and make the submission? I'd be glad to join you on a panel, and possibly others would, too, but not take the lead on this. --Rosiestep (talk) 12:23, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Everything is so up in the air both at work (moving and reopening libraries) and my personal life, I hate to commit to anything and flake out. :( Megalibrarygirl (talk) 21:36, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm glad to hear you are prepared to take part in the disucssion,, as you certainly have extensive experience in this connection. may also have useful suggestions. Even if you are not willing to take part in a panel discussion, , I think it would be useful if you could provide further details of the recent problems we have faced with the failure of Listeria to carry out regular updates on the longer lists. On the more positive side, I personally find our Wikidata redlists invaluable. Even in cases where there are no articles in other languages, I make frequent use of the listings from biographical dictionaries. These lead me not only to biographies but in many cases to additional sources, images, etc., while providing a basis for more traditional searches. I think the results of our meetups show that many of our contributors make good use of our Wikidata redlists. So there's quite a lot of positive experience to discuss, apart from all the frustrating problems we have faced. One interesting avenue to explore is how to extend them more easily to our multilingual environment, especially in connection with the major languages.--Ipigott (talk) 12:50, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I will not be speaking at the event, but I can help with any technical question/input for prep, if needed. But maybe it might be more interesting for a wider audience to talk about the not-so-technical aspects? Redlist criteria that were particularly successful, nuances of listing criteria, notability caveats, etc. About the ListeraBot breakage, I drafted a proposal for the upcoming Community Wish List: meta:Community_Wishlist_Survey/Sandbox. MarioGom (talk) 14:06, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for doing that, MG. T'other issue, as you are probably well aware, but I'll surface here again, is that Listeria is not aliasing the article title of redlinks in the situation where the WD label of the item is the same as an existing WP article for another person. Previously it appended the QId to the redlink's article title. Now, redlists contain bluelinks, and woe &c. --Tagishsimon (talk) 18:31, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I'd be happy to be part of a panel, particularly to discuss the Listeria Redlists vs Crowd-sourced lists vs off-wiki spreadsheets that I've seen favoured in some editathons, including Ada Lovelace Day. When refs are added to the Wikidata statements they can be used to defelop the new bio. And, also, the issue of having to merge duplicates on Wikidata, sometimes because of naming differences but often straight duplication. And the importance of assigning Sex/Gender to capture the gender % for the weekly statistics update. Don't know quite how to frame / finetune these ideas for a proposal though.--Oronsay (talk) 14:03, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
 * That's great news, . I don't know to what extent our involvement should be associated with specific proposals but there has been a lot of interest in our redlists from other language versions of Wikipedia. I've been asked myself more than once to adapt our redlists for use by other language versions but my answer has usually been that the English versions probably contain most of the names which are not covered in other languages. Nevertheless, I'm sure there must be an easy way for those working on other language versions to adapt them to their own needs, perhaps through a simple tool. The main issue is nevertheless the Listeria updating problem which has existed for far too long. Hope you can put these points forward.--Ipigott (talk) 13:14, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid I have no ideas about how to convert our redlists for use by other language Wikis, but am definitely a fan of keeping info centralised in Wikidata. My foreign language skills are from 40+ years ago. I do understand the Listeria issues, and the failure to disambiguate in our redlists, which causes confusion. So my hand is now only semi-raised as I'm not sure I can contribute in the way that's wanted unless it's to ask the question "How can Women in Red's redlists be adapted for use by other language Wikipedias? and hope someone can come up with an answer.--Oronsay (talk) 22:04, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Relatively little needs to be done to use EN Wiki WiR lists for another language wiki. The  part of the Wikidata list   query needs to be changed to point at the appropriate language wiki - e.g.   for the French wiki. Beyond that if header & footer templates are wanted, they'll need to written. Listeria will take care of language issues, and although many languages have few item descriptions on WD, Listeria's description fallback service (the parameter  ) should provide adequate descriptions. --Tagishsimon (talk) 22:41, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks, . So you have your answer there,, and don't need to bother about it too much in the discussion. Maybe one of these days we should prepare a WiR page on Wikidata redlinks which could be used not only by our EN contributors but also by other language groups. Some of the procedures which seem simple to experts are not so easy for ordinary editors to implement. What do you think, ?--Ipigott (talk) 11:03, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * , I think it's always a good idea to create new, informational WiR pages!, if you have time/inclination to submit a proposal for Wikidatacon, that would be great. As I mentioned earlier, I'd be glad to participate, but I can't take a lead. Does anyone else want to participate? --Rosiestep (talk) 14:14, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm willing to participate and I'd usually be willing to be the organizer but I'm taking a breather from conference organizing this year.  Gamaliel  ( talk ) 14:33, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

Hi all, thanks for discussing this. Just a reminder that the deadline is the end of today (20th). If a panel would be too much, a short presentation (25 minutes) or lightning talk (10 minutes) would also be great (and if several of you submit a presentation, we can schedule them back-to-back). Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 09:02, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Registered for #WikidataCon? Please join us on day 2, Saturday, 30 October, 10:15pm UTC: Improving women’s biographies on Wikipedia using Wikidata tools - Experiences from WikiWomenInRed and the Smithsonian Institution. Thanks. --Rosiestep (talk) 17:59, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Signup: https://pretix.eu/WDCon21/WDCon21/
 * Panelists:.
 * Great to see that you got a presentation slot in the end, but also kinda sad that it wasn't in the sister projects track this morning! But it looks like that was mostly down to speaker availability? Hope it goes well, sorry I can't attend a talk that's so late in the European day! Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 18:35, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks, . We developed and branded our session as Sister Projects/GLAM Tracks as it is indeed a combo. As for placement on the schedule, I don't know who made that decision. I did work on the proposal but didn't make the submission. --Rosiestep (talk) 19:10, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Still more Listeria woes…
I’m sure the answer is yes, but to confirm, is it a known issue that Listeria isn’t automatically updating even lists that aren’t too long for it to handle? In anticipation of next month’s Film + Stage editathon, I spent some time last night tidying and manually running the actresses by country Wikidata red lists, and most did run when prompted … so I’m not sure why they hadn’t done so in two months. Just add it to the list of problems? Innisfree987 (talk) 21:27, 20 October 2021 (UTC)


 * I don't think we've characterised Listeria's capricious approach to updates; but I see the pattern you speak of - a couple of months of nothing, and when cornered, an update as if butter wouldn't melt in its mouth. It remains regrettable that there's a single maintainer for Listeria, who chooses at the moment not to comment on its issues; and that there's complete indifference on the part of WMF to the loss of a key tool. So it goes. --Tagishsimon (talk) 17:30, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
 * It might be the memory consumption problem (or it might not!). If that's the case, note that the issue is not really that the list is too long, some +2k items lists are just fine, but the content of the lists. If they happen to have links to a few entities (like countries) whose items contain many statements, it can trigger the issue even on smaller lists. Anyway, do you have an example of a list with these weird update frequencies? MarioGom (talk) 21:31, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
 * example, though it seems to hold good for most of the recent WiR updates done by ListeriaBot. The memory issue isn't a good explainer for the bot's decision to do no updates for a period, and then update when asked. --Tagishsimon (talk) 21:46, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Avoiding country links was a good hint. I tried removing the birth and death places from the table in WikiProject Women in Red/Missing articles by occupation/Mathematicians and now I can get it to list all 1339 of them (as of now) when previously I had to artificially limit it to 500 to get it to run. The countries are mostly mentioned in the descriptions, and non-country birth and death places are not useful for this redlist, anyway. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:54, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Yup in the recent updates, those actress lists that ran on October 20 (but mostly hadn’t run since August) were ones I nudged (plus a few new lists). Meanwhile sorry for speaking imprecisely; I understand that for lists that won’t run even when nudged, it’s not strictly length, but various things that overload memory. But yeah, 90% of the ones I tried did run—they just hadn’t in two months. Curious. Innisfree987 (talk) 22:00, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I hope and  have seen this in connection with the conference discussion.--Ipigott (talk) 08:56, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I do plan on mentioning the technical issues we've been having, in about 15 minutes or so.  Gamaliel  ( talk ) 22:06, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Pauline Bart
An obit for Pauline Bart just appeared in the NYT. I am sure she's notable but none of the standard criteria seem to apply: WP:NPROF seems like the best fit, but she wasn't a named chair, her sole-authored papers aren't that widely cited, and most of her books are co-authored. WP:NAUTHOR is a little sketchy for the same reason. WP:BASIC might work if more obits appear, but I'm concerned that this will be taken to AfD if I create it right now. might be useful for anyone interested in pursuing this. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 22:50, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Plenty of news coverage through The Wikipedia Library. Here's some I clipped.
 * Rape expert studies best defenses
 * UIC firing feminist over discrimination
 * Study says women who fight more likely to avoid a rape
 * Letter Very Heartwarming
 * Bart's Topic: Women's Health
 * I hope that helps. Also, you forgot your signature. Silver  seren C 22:32, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Oh, and don't forget her papers collection at Duke University for biographical details. Silver  seren C 22:34, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Some more.
 * Professors Under Fire
 * Feminist accused of 'silencing' man
 * I. Biology as Destiny: The Legacy of Victorian Gynaecology in the 21st Century
 * Violence against Women: The Bloody Footprints
 * A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Orifice: Women in Gynecology Textbooks
 * Fighting off would-be rapist best strategy women advised
 * Some book reviews in there as well. Silver  seren C 23:00, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Newsweek cover story on Black women in America
In 2003 Newsweek ran a cover story on Black women. It's available for free borrow at the Internet Archive: Probably useful for any number of Wikipedia articles. -Pete Forsyth (talk) 23:52, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * https://archive.org/details/newsweek141marnewy/page/n59/mode/2up

Lilli Alanen
Hei, hej and hey! Is there anyone interested in philosophy who would be interested in fleshing out her article (first female professor of philosophy in Sweden, etc.)? I'm having a hard time accessing a lot of sources that are on the other side of the pond from me such as this one because of the USA's opinion of the GDPR, but I also know jack about philosophy, so I wouldn't be able to do her article justice on that front anyways. I'm adding stuff (with sources I can access) to her Wikidata item (so far mainly from Finnish), so that should help at least. -Yupik (talk) 07:56, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
 * , if you read Finnish (I do not), this interview, which was already cited in the article before the recent set of edits, seems to be a good source of biographical info and might be able to resolve the many cn tags I added to the paragraph on her personal life. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 13:14, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I do, yes and that's a really good source (I've been adding it to her wd item). Thanks for helping out with this! -Yupik (talk) 14:51, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't read Finnish so can't help in that way, but I did expand the lede from 1 sentence to 2, and added a header. --Rosiestep (talk) 15:54, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Olga San Juan and WP:FP


Thanks to, I've recently caught the PD no notice bug. I found this excellent photo which by all indications is in the public domain. I have no experience with WP:FP but was thinking of nominating it. Similar story with File:Barbara Stanwyck - Whitey Schafer - October 1944.jpg, although Barbara Stanwyck is so much better known than Olga San Juan that I thought it would be better to start with OSJ. Any thoughts? AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 17:38, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
 * , LOL truth be told, I know nothing, absolutely nothing, about the quality of photographs (I refuse to take or be in them and couldn't tell you the difference between 1 pixel and 1500 pixels, or SVG vs. JPG). I know how to research pre-1977 photos and everything I learned about that you can credit to WeHope, GRuban, GreenMeansGo and Clindberg. I wouldn't know how to nominate or judge if a photograph met the criteria for a featured picture, but has done a lot of work on them for WiR. If you are interested, I would suggest finding a mentor who regularly contributes to FP discussions. I'm glad to help you research them, but as to whether they meet quality for FP, I honestly have no idea. SusunW (talk) 18:33, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Like Susun, I have little experience of what should qualify as an image worthy of main page prominence. I would therefore suggest you go ahead and nominate those you think are striking enough for inclusion.--Ipigott (talk) 20:57, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Think I may just take the plunge, then … AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 01:24, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Sadly AleatoryPonderings's proposed photo was several pixels short of a prize; 1500.1500 is the minimum threshold, we learn. :( --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:53, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
 * What a shame. It's such a great photo.--Oronsay (talk) 00:53, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
 * You think. According to a cynical wiseacre FPer, it's merely "Yet another promotional publicity image (with blown highlights)". So that's us told. --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:13, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

request for research help
Hello sleuths! Can anyone find a birth year for Rathika Ramasamy? She is an important Indian wildlife photographer. Thanks. WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 01:46, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
 * As a start – she was 47 years old in this Guardian piece from 2018. DanCherek (talk) 01:57, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Marie Warner (dancer)
Anyone interested in looking more deeply into this? I'm always wary of AfDs addressing people before the internet era. I'm sure there must have been much more extensive coverage in newspaper articles during her lifetime but as I rarely deal with Americans, I don't know where to find them.--Ipigott (talk) 19:27, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Her obit went out on the AP wire, so it's reproduced everywhere, but I can find nothing else. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 19:43, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for looking into it, . If there's nothing more out there, then I think the article should be deleted. I've called for delete on the AfD page.--Ipigott (talk) 06:54, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Draft:Rogers Hall School
I started a draft on this subject and it's quite interesting. Would anyone like to work on it? Please feel free to start fresh on your own new draft. I will try to help but my plate is pretty full at the moment. FloridaArmy (talk) 00:02, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * This was a girls' school, apparently. I was not initially sure what the relevance to this project was. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 00:45, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * It was, it says, a finishing school, an endangered species it seems. Our article is a list with a poor lead. Johnbod (talk) 00:48, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Draft:Zillah Eisenstein
Should anyone be interested in a gender studies project, I’ve resurrected an AFC draft that dates back to—wait for it—2013. Zillah Eisenstein is Emerita Professor of Politics at Ithaca College and abundantly meets NAUTHOR and NACADEMIC, having published 12 widely reviewed books as well as the edited collection that originally published the Combahee River Collective Statement. (Almost all the work had already been published when the draft was declined in 2013… I do see why it was declined but it’s really a shame to be losing these entries and contributors.) Anyway. Entry just getting started, would welcome anyone interested! Innisfree987 (talk) 00:53, 2 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Promoted to Zillah Eisenstein. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:59, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks so much for reviewing it! Innisfree987 (talk) 01:18, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Good archaeology on your part, Innisfree. 'Fraid it won't turn up in the WiR metrics, which only go back to article start dates from 2015. --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:22, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Even more ancient history at the redirect, Zillah R. Eisenstein—folks started trying start a page for her all the way back in 2010 (when again, she’d already published the majority of her work.) Bit dismaying to see how many people tried and failed, for more than a decade, to get a page up even for an unambiguously notable woman. Innisfree987 (talk) 01:46, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The introduction of NACADEMIC has helped more recent drafts to get through to mainspace. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 06:22, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Eileen Ash
Hi. Eileen Ash, a former international cricketer for England, celebrated her 110th birthday at the weekend. She is the oldest living international cricketer.  Lugnuts  Fire Walk with Me 13:46, 1 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Wow! I was under the impression that women's cricket was invented recently, but it's older than my parents. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 06:18, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * - yes, it might come as a surprise to some! 1934-35 were the first women's international matches, when England toured Australia and New Zealand.  Lugnuts  Fire Walk with Me 08:26, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Just to add - I had no idea about any of this, so thanks for sharing! Lajmmoore (talk) 08:59, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * My pleasure.  Lugnuts  Fire Walk with Me 09:02, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * It's a real pity that there's basically nothing about this in the usual cricket media. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 14:08, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Wheelchair based language
Hi, there's a RFC going on at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style about the use of 'wheelchair-bound' and 'confined to a wheelchair'. I know there are some people here with an interest in disability and thought I'd mention it. I don't know how long these things go on, it may be pointless to mention it this late. (And I'm still pretty new to WP and am winging it really - if this goes against any guidelines do let me know!) Persicifolia (talk) 00:28, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
 * @Persicifolia, you can find the policy at WP:CANVASS but in short a neutral announcement like this is just fine, and it’s not too late for interested folks to weigh in. Innisfree987 (talk) 01:33, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
 * @Innisfree987 thank you. I'm not at the stage where I know where to look for these things (yet?!). Your name is lovely btw. I don't know if it's a reference to the poem, but it cheers me up whenever I see it. Persicifolia (talk) 02:06, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
 * It's good to see we have an article on Yeats' The Lake Isle of Innisfree. Maybe some day we'll have one on the island itself, . After all, there are already 64 pages in Category:Uninhabited islands of Ireland. As for wheelchairs, it seems to me it all depends on context. I think we should be wary of using Wikipedia to define language usage although most of us are careful not to use terms which may be considered offensive.--Ipigott (talk) 07:40, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Oh yes, I see The Lake Isle of Innisfree has a template on it. Maybe I'll have a look to see if I can be any help over there. And I know essentially nothing about the island itself Ipigott but would 100% read an article on it.
 * On language around wheelchair use, I'm a wheelchair user myself so have a lot of skin in that game. I don't know if I'm allowed to express an opinion here? (I did read WP:CANVASS since Innisfree987 thoughtfully linked to it but am not sure how replies fit in.) There is language I (and sources like the AP Stylebook) find offensive, but perhaps a large proportion of WP editors are new to the idea. My small edits led to a large debate which I was not anticipating. WP can be quite a ride for good or ill! Persicifolia (talk) 13:31, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Don't get discouraged, . Wikipedia is an adventure with ups and downs. There is so much to learn. I think it's completely appropriate and needed for someone who lives with this experience of being a wheelchair user to comment on such things. You aren't seeking others to show up and agree or disagree with you so you aren't canvassing. You are just offering your own insightful replies and responses. Others may agree or disagree with you but that doesn't make what you are saying right or wrong. Nor should it discourage you from sharing your views. -- A Rose Wolf  15:07, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I remember when running research projects aimed at providing better IT services for people with reduced sight, we were faced with similar problems. I quickly learnt not to talk about "the blind" but rather about "blind people/blind persons" or, for those who have not completely lost their sight, "visually impaired people/persons". I imagine those using wheelchairs face similar problems. I see there are some sensible recommendations from the UN here. I'm sorry to hear you have to use a wheelchair, (also a lovely flowery name), but it doesn't seem to be diminishing your Wikipedia performance. You've recently done a great job on Ursula Jones. Keep up the good work.--Ipigott (talk) 15:45, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
 * No, you have an absolute right to be in the discussion, Persicifolia. And you have the backing of all the actual reliable sources. This shouldn't even be a debate. The sources are quite clear on the subject. Anyone arguing otherwise is being purposefully ignorant. I'm actually getting rather angry at how people are practically talking down to you in the discussion section over there. Silver  seren C 17:54, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
 * It's terrible how Persicifolia is being treated. Sadly, I'm not surprised at how the discussion turned out. SL93 (talk) 18:27, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you both, very sincerely. It's been an experience. I've been lucky in real life and on social media, so it's certainly been a reminder of how we're still widely perceived ('lame' was a particular low point, and a first for me). I have a lot of respect for WP but in that situation, people who are actually members of the marginalised group being discussed are at a disadvantage - when its my body being discussed not theirs, it's easy to make things uncomfortable for me. I suspect disabled people are kind of the last group considered fair game - for people who've had to reluctantly concede on gender, race etc we're easy prey. As you say Silver the sources are clear - I've only been here for 6 months but everything I'd seen up to now was about WP being entirely source led. Yet in this all the RS are on one side, but the other will presumably prevail. Persicifolia (talk) 22:50, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I can see how it can be an issue. An autism aid, who doesn't have autism, in my old high school tried to get people to say "people with autism" rather than "autistic people". I have autism and I personally didn't care either way. SL93 (talk) 17:36, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Oh and I meant to reply SL93 - that is frustrating. Most people I've met who are very keen on person first language (and correct disabled people on the language we use) are not disabled, like the person you mention. I personally don't mind whether I'm described as disabled or a person with a disability either (and find the whole implication people might forget I'm a person if they don't make sure they put 'person' in... interesting). There are some red herrings when it comes to language about disability I think, (though obviously I don't think 'wheelchair-bound' is one of them). Persicifolia (talk) 22:58, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

AfD - Theresa H. Arriola
Hello all, Just making a note that Theresa H. Arriola is nominated for deletion here Articles for deletion/Theresa H. Arriola Lajmmoore (talk) 18:40, 6 November 2021 (UTC)


 * SusunW there, with the AfD wrecking ball & receipts. Model rationale for a whole class of AfDs. Pleasure to watch a professional at work. --Tagishsimon (talk) 21:29, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
 * , thanks. I don't go to AfD often, but my rationales when I do are typically similar. SusunW (talk) 22:18, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Jean Stefancic
I just created a draft for Jean Stefancic. She and her husband Richard Delgado have collaborated on numerous books, yet he has an article and she doesn’t. Any help would be appreciated! Thank you, Thriley (talk) 05:04, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

New draft
Albeit a stub, and not so great yet, I created a draft for Ellen Bravo. Please, any editing is more than welcomed. — 3PPYB6 — T ALK — C ONTRIBS  — S ANDBOXES  — L OGS  — 13:11, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Feel free to add a link to when it's ready for mainspace. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 02:46, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Halls of Fame template
While searching around about what more is out there about women's list of halls of fame, I ran across some city and county lists you started. That inspired me to expand the navbox Template:United States Women's Halls of Fame to include county and city levels and add yours on it. As far as I'm concerned, anyone creating such a list, can link it on that template. I find such lists a pretty good starting point for anyone looking for bios to create in their location, etc. These navboxes are really good for at-a-glance browsing. — Maile (talk) 02:33, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I love it! These template lists are really helpful to me, too. Do you think things like the National Cowgirl Museum and Hall of Fame would be good to add to the template? Megalibrarygirl (talk) 03:40, 12 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Yee haw!! Added.  Feel free to add any article to the template you feel works there. — Maile  (talk) 11:11, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Author want WP article about her
User_talk:Ampimd, for the interested. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:07, 11 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the note ., I have done some preliminary research and concur that you are WP-notable. Plenty of information in numerous reliable sources, over time (1989-2021) to create a reasonably complete biography., , ,., ,,,,,,,,,,, That being said, I do not typically work on living subjects and to my knowledge have never worked on an article written by a subject who has a conflict of interest. Thus, while I know that you will need to disclose that information, how you do it I don't know. I am willing to try to help add biographical referencing to the article and hope that other members of Women in Red can assist in finding reviews of your work, like this one. Information for which a source cannot be found that specifically states the information will need to be removed. SusunW (talk) 16:34, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I am glad this has come to your notice as well. I am glad you have done some preliminary research on the subject and feel she passes the WP notability tag, your research has answered most of the questions I asked the subject. I am ready to also work on the article. Based on the reviews from your end + references you have provided, I believe I can start working on the article so that the next step is taken. Cheers! Ampimd (talk) 16:39, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you @SusunW. To answer your question, @Barbarabloemink should add Template:Connected contributor to the entry’s talk page, filling out the parameters to note her COI. Innisfree987 (talk) 17:05, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks Give me a bit to work in some of those sources and reformat it to WP style and I'll leave it with you. SusunW (talk) 17:12, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Great! I would be on stand-by. Ampimd (talk) 17:16, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
 * , I'm out. There is a lot of info in that Virginia Beach piece that can be added and confirms that she lived abroad for much of her childhood. Got the career dates up to 2001. In the following sections, we need to work up reviews of her curations and writing. I'll come back to it, but it may not be until tomorrow. Good luck! SusunW (talk) 19:33, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I've moved the article into mainspace - Barbara J. Bloemink. Any further editing can take place there. --Tagishsimon (talk) 20:09, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I would have waited for the EL:s to be turned into refs, but that's me. I'm assuming there's no question about WP:BASIC. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:41, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The references are pretty strange and need a lot of work tidying them up - complicated by the fact that I've just moved the article to Barbara Bloemink because it seems to be the commonly used form (eg in publishing her books), and the referencing style involves horrible internal links... Pam  D  23:19, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
 * That was what I was just about to work on until I realised its been moved into the mainspace so I would try and work on it there. Ampimd (talk) 23:31, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I've rescued the malformatted ISBNs of her "Selected publications" (they'd been garbled into being phone numbers), and re-ordered the sections into something more standard, but the references still need a lot of work (and trimming back, I suspect). Pam  D  15:02, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
 * And is that portrait really a selfie as claimed: "Own work"? Pam  D  15:03, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
 * @PamD, maybe you saw but it's under discussion at the article talkpage. I might nominate it for deletion on Commons in a couple of days if nobody beats me to it, and my experience is that such requests can take awhile. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 00:01, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

Problem with sfn template
I have been using https://reftag.appspot.com/ for years to form book references and sfns. But these days, when I click the link, I get an error message. Is there another template being used to generate sfns? --Rosiestep (talk) 16:43, 12 November 2021 (UTC)


 * I've been having the same problems with the tool for citing Google books: "http://reftag.appspot.com/". Now I have to create everything manually.--Ipigott (talk) 17:10, 12 November 2021 (UTC)


 * The 2017 wikitext editor and visual editor do quite a good job of citing Gbooks if you just drop the url into the "automatic" box after clicking on "cite". Ditto if you have an ISBN or DOI. I usually use 2017 wikitext in source mode and modify the auto-generated cite to my preferences. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 17:31, 12 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the tip but I am not familiar with the wikitext editor. Nothing comes up under wp:Wikitext editor or WP:Wiki text editor. Where is it located?--Ipigott (talk) 19:08, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
 * It's described as "New wikitext mode" under Special:Preferences (hopefully that link works?). I believe auto-citing is also a standard feature of the visual editor? AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 19:25, 12 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks, but it looks to me as if it's something that is not yet approved for general use. It would therefore be good to have the old Google citation tool back.--Ipigott (talk) 19:32, 12 November 2021 (UTC)


 * I've inquired here: Village pump (technical). --Rosiestep (talk) 14:15, 13 November 2021 (UTC)


 * And I've tried a couple of Google books urls on what they recommended but they didn't work. Hope we can get the old tool working again.--Ipigott (talk) 17:10, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

AFD - Aleksandra Przegalińska
Any thoughts regarding this one: Articles for deletion/Aleksandra Przegalińska? --Rosiestep (talk) 22:09, 13 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Other than that you cannot read a Polish news source without tripping over an article about her, her work, &c? It's a puzzle. --Tagishsimon (talk) 22:16, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

Susi Ramstein, first woman to take LSD
I created a draft for Susi Ramstein, a lab assistant of Albert Hofmann. She is the first woman to take LSD. Does she seem notable enough to have her own article? Any help with sourcing would be appreciated. Thank you, Thriley (talk) 04:26, 14 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Personally I don't think a standalone article would be encyclopedic unless she did other things that were covered by RS. Being mentioned in the LSD and Hofmann articles would be more appropriate. JoelleJay (talk) 21:39, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Requesting inputs for the article lead image
Hi, This is User:Bookku requesting your valuable inputs for the article lead image @ Talk:Sexual slavery in Islam.

&#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 10:25, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Draft:Vivienne Baber / Vivianne Baber
I would be happy to have some help developing this draft on stage and screen acress Vivienne Baber. I believe there should be quite a bit in newspaper archives? Thanks to anyone who wants to lent a hand. Have a happy every day.

Also Draft:Maxine Finsterwald FloridaArmy (talk) 14:10, 14 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Here's what I was able to find on Vivianne Baber.
 * Vivienne Baber of Brooklyn Glad She's Not Playing Hussy
 * Mantan Is Comedian
 * "The Wheel of Life" Is Attraction At Playhouse
 * I hope that helps, . Silver  seren C 21:42, 14 November 2021 (UTC)


 * And for Maxine Finsterwald, I was only able to get through to 1932 on Newspapers.com before calling a break. There's a heck of a lot of stuff to sift through. Here's what I found.
 * Detroit Gets the Credit for Career
 * Darkness Settles over City's Rialto for Week
 * Obituaries: Elsewhere (Maxine Flora Finsterwald)
 * The Theatre and Its People
 * Prize-Winning Playwright to Address Writing Club
 * Theater Tournament Prize Winner's Dramatization to Be Presented
 * Racial Problems Considered In Play "On Whitman Avenue"
 * Belfry Players Plan To Present Play At Madison Tournament
 * There's a whole bunch more to find. Though also a lot of minor mentions to sift through and discard. Silver  seren C 22:07, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Awesome!!! Thanks so much User:Silver seren. The article and photograph of Vivienne Baber with her discussing her preferred roles was a lot of fun and inspiring. Thanks so much. FloridaArmy (talk) 18:15, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Attention: Penny Richards re:article on Dorah Sterne
My brother Niel and I were surprised (& happy) to find a Wikipedia on our grandmother Dorah Sterne. There are a couple of slight edits. She was born on October 29th. Her only child was nicknamed “Dody”- our Mother was born Nov 3rd, 1933 & died on July 4th, 1998 from complications of multiple sclerosis. While trying to find Dr. Richards’ email, I ran across the beautiful piece she crocheted with the disabled or handicapped symbol. Our mother used a wheelchair due to her severe MS so that struck a chord with us. 100.15.183.221 (talk) 01:22, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * re Dorah Sterne. Pam  D  05:59, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Hello grandchildren of Dorah Sterne! I appreciate your posting and your kind words. If I can find a published source for Sterne's birthdate I can include that, so I'll have a look. (We don't generally include the exact birth/death dates of a subject's children, partly as a privacy matter.) Penny Richards (talk) 18:00, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * And while I was revisiting her article, I replaced the photo with a clearer, earlier image (from the 1919 Smith College yearbook). Penny Richards (talk) 18:15, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

AfD - Keren Elazari
Israeli cybersecurity analyst Keren Elazari is at AfD: Articles for deletion/Keren Elazari. Full disclosure, I have done a bunch of work on the article (post-AfD, to try to save it) and have !voted there. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 18:18, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Pauline Alpert
I stumbled on this pianist performer and composer and started Draft:Pauline Alpert. Fun to hear some of her songs on YouTube. She also appeared in I think several Vitaphone Varieties films but I don't know if any of the footage survivies. I only found a still of her at a paino. Anyway, super fun to hear her play and I wanted to post here in case anyone alwas interested. Not so much an area of expertise for me. But rockin' ragtime tunes for sure and I'm surprised she doesn't habe an entry already. User:78.26 are you more into classical? FloridaArmy (talk) 18:29, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi there, . It's good to see you are interested in receiving support from Women in Red. We are, indeed, always happy to help people along. Nevertheless, I have been looking at your recent work and all your article creations but cannot see any real concern with women. May I suggest first that you create a user page where you can tell us what you want to cover on Wikipedia. Secondly, if you are really interested in reducing the gender gap, you could look at Women in Red and decide whether you could benefit from becoming a member. In the meantime, good luck with Pauline Alpert. Unfortunately I am not an expert in this area.--Ipigott (talk) 18:55, 15 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Did another Newspapers.com dive. Only managed to get through November of 1927 before I had to take a break. There's a lot of ads to look through and, annoyingly, some of them also have useful information. So, here's a list of sources in chronological order to help you piece together her history, rather than in order of importance like I'd been doing with my source lists before.
 * Now At State
 * Girl On Temple Bill Is Promising Pianist
 * "Tunes and Steps" And Fashion Show Score Big Hit
 * VITAPHONE!
 * Columbia Opens Second Vitaphone Week
 * 'Cradle Snatcher's Week's Feature At Majestic Theater
 * Stage and Screen: Majestic
 * Scenario Writers Insistent
 * Dramatic
 * Pauline Alpert Record Advertisement
 * It May Interest You To Know Thatn
 * One thing I'm unsure about is that first one. Is that something she did as a child or is it someone entirely different, just with the same name and who was also a pianist? Because it is way, way earlier than anything else on Alpert. By 25 years, as you can see. Maybe it's referring to a guy with the name? Silver  seren C 19:22, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * User:Silver seren the Temple Theater peformance seems to be her. Thanks for the newspaper archive digging. Much appreciated. This writeup at ragpiano.com is well done ad the author seems be quite an uthority on these subjects. Nonetheless I have had it questioned as a reliable source. Go figure. FloridaArmy (talk) 20:03, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Retrieving deleted article to draft ?
I participated to organizing an event about adding to Wikipedia women in international politics. I expected the event participants to edit fr.wikipedia, as I communicated about the event in that language, and know that wikipedia better than the English-language one. Nevertheless, the participants also edited English and German-language Wikipedia (all details on this dashboard, if you'd like to see the metrics). One of the contributors that edited in English decided to write about her boss, as all the men at the same level of responsibility in her organization. She disclosed the potential conflict of interest on her profile, and went on to write an OK-ish biographical article, which got promptly deleted because of the tone. (The entire structure and tone of the article was copied from a similar biography of a man working for the same org.) I was wondering if an admin here could help me retrieve the text as a draft, so she can try to rework the tone? The page's deleted log can be found here.--Flor WMCH (talk) 08:41, 15 November 2021 (UTC)


 * I looked at the deleted page. The issue is is not the tone of the text. The main problem is that it is based almost entirely on non-independent sources. Secondly the most notable positions Schaller held are merely listed instead of being the main focus of the article. The admin who deleted it (per the G11 criteria)  is who the undelete appeal should be addressed to. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 10:29, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks ! I am also notifying here so she may read your feedback concerning the content of and the sources for the article.  would you be kind enough to place the deleted article on User:Kyngduturfu's drafts so that she may give it a proper form and content? Thanks in advance!--Flor WMCH (talk) 12:31, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * ✅, pages probably need some cleanup because they're no longer in article and article talk namespace. – Athaenara  ✉  21:09, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Has WIR focused on women in Guam history, or Micronesia, yet?
I'll be adding this list to the US Women's Hall of Fame navbox, but thought you all might like to see the Guam site I found on this. It not only lists 29 women, but also scroll down on that page, and you'll see a few links to speeches by subject matter. — Maile (talk) 15:39, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Women in Guam History


 * I notice we don't have a redlist for Guam. I know our country lists are usually generated by using the property "Country of Citizenship", but I wonder what the best way of doing that is for a territory like Guam.   Gamaliel  ( talk ) 17:16, 15 November 2021 (UTC)


 * This sort of thing, maybe (but without the label service): https://w.wiki/4Prw ... it'll catch all manner of Guam associations. --Tagishsimon (talk) 17:49, 15 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Not accurate, but this WikiProject Women in Red/Missing articles by nationality/Guam picked up a few people when Guam was put as a country ... Better than nothing for the time being? Lajmmoore (talk) 17:56, 15 November 2021 (UTC)


 * P190s needed removed: https://w.wiki/4Ps7 --Tagishsimon (talk) 17:58, 15 November 2021 (UTC)


 * I was looking at Voting in Guam. Yes, they're US citizens and allowed to vote in our national elections. Technically, like one of our states, but apparently not counted as a state or we'd have more than 50 states.  I wish Congress would just give all our territories, and D. C., statehood and make us all equal.— Maile  (talk) 17:26, 15 November 2021 (UTC)


 * I must be a little slow in reading all our notices at WIR. Seeing that we are in the middle of the Women in Oceania contest, I created both the article and navbox for this group of women. Since they're all listed in the article, no need to list these specific ones elsewhere. — Maile  (talk) 02:03, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Female Entrepreneur Businesses
Hello:

I was wondering, is this project 100% focused on biographies, or do you also assist with/work on pages for women's businesses? Thank you! LeepKendall (talk) 17:13, 14 October 2021 (UTC)


 * The project is not strictly limited to biographies. For example, Women's suffrage in New Jersey or Associação Feminina Portuguesa para a Paz are examples of non-biography articles that were part of recent Women in Red events. I'm not sure a company will be of much interest to the project just because there is a female CEO or founder, but you can always try and ask about the specific case. MarioGom (talk) 08:40, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
 * The project covers all aspects of women and their works. We certainly can help with women's businesses and related organizations. Are there any specific items you have in mind.--Ipigott (talk) 08:43, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you User:MarioGom and User:Ipigott for your responses. I have drafted an article for a business called VIDA https://shopvida.com/pages/our-story. I am in a COI relationship with the company and will declare such when I propose the article. I've only created one other new article Julie Lythcott-Haims. As recommended by volunteer editors at that time, I posted it to my sandbox and then invited editors for input. I will plan to do the same for VIDA/Umaimah Mendhro. Again, thank you for your responses. Best LeepKendall (talk) 17:08, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Hello User:Ipigott. I have a draft ready for review. Would it be best that I post it in my sandbox first and request input? Or shall I use the AFC tool with Women in Red coding? It would be helpful if it is not yet ready for 'primetime' to have some feedback as to why. Thank you in advance for your reply. Best LeepKendall (talk) 22:32, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Sorry about the delay. I've been tied up for the last couple of days. I would suggest you first post your draft in your user space, using User:LeeKendall/article name. I might not have time to look at it for the next couple of days.--Ipigott (talk) 14:15, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks much, User:Ipigott. I will get that in my draft space next week and tag you. I appreciate your time and don't expect an immediate response. When you have the time. Best LeepKendall (talk) 17:33, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Hello User:Ipigott. I have created the draft Draft:VIDA Retail that is now ready for review. I hope I have all the right disclosures. I put my paid COI relationship on the talk page, and also added a couple of other related WikiProjects. I look forward to your review and feedback when you have some time. Best, LeepKendall (talk) 23:01, 1 November 2021 (UTC)


 * The first thing I notice is a problem with your link to public-benefit corporation which is up for deletion. Is it perhaps simply a benefit corporation? If not, you'll need to provide further explanations. I also think the article would benefit from a section on customer reactions, level of satisfaction, etc. At the moment, the article looks very much as if it is designed to promote the company rather than to give an objective account of its development. I think it would stand a better chance of acceptance if it was toned down a bit, perhaps with attention to some of the difficulties the company has faced, for instance in connection with supply and demand. If you can find appropriate sources, it would be useful to compare its current status with that of its competitors. It is especially important to bear these considerations in mind when you are working on behalf of the company or one of its executives.--Ipigott (talk) 06:55, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for this feedback User:Ipigott. I will work on your suggestions. Are customer reviews considered secondary sources? If so, I will look to include some. I thought content had to be covered in in a media source. Also, I can probably find some of this info using articles that don't meet the 65% rule of being primarily about the subject. Will that be acceptable? Thanks again for your time! LeepKendall (talk) 14:35, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I believe there are specialist journals which assess products on the basis of customer satisfaction, etc. I think it would be appropriate to draw on these if the company or its products have been the subject of such inquiries. As you already have a considerable number of valid secondary sources, additional accounts which cover the company in some detail would be entirely acceptable. I am making these suggestions in order to avoid problems with the acceptance of your article but as you are no doubt aware it is likely to be tagged until other editors have made substantial contributions.--Ipigott (talk) 15:25, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi User:Ipigott: I have made some edits to the Draft:VIDA Retail article based on your suggestions. I am also going to invite input from a couple of volunteers from WikiProject Pakistan and WikiProject Fashion. Your feedback on the latest draft would be greatly appreciated whenever you have some time. Best LeepKendall (talk) 02:10, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for following up on my suggestions. It still looks to me rather like an advertisement for the company. Maybe you should tone it down a bit more, for example by removing "artist-designed" from the lead as you include artists in the next sentence. But by and large it's an improvement. I do not feel competent to move the article to mainspace myself as I have little experience of articles about American companies. I therefore suggest you submit it through the normal AfC process.--Ipigott (talk) 06:52, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Redlinks
The background of suffrage in Colorado as well as events that followed vis-a-vis Woodrow Wilson becoming president and the national push for suffrage are worth contextualizing for these subjects. Also World War I. The Wikipedia entry on Wilson's second presidwntial inauguration in 1916 covers the issues a bit, but otherwise they seem to be largely absent from Wikipedia. Nothing at 1912 Democratic Party National Convention for example.

All noted here. FloridaArmy (talk) 20:48, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Anna Pitzer, noted and pictured here, middle initial H.
 * Louise U. Jones noted here. Middle name? Also noted here
 * Louise M. Kerwin
 * Judge Lydia B. Tague noted here (middle name Berkely) Also memorialized here


 * @FloridaArmy, a good place to add these is the crowd-sourced suffrage list, so future editors can make use of your legwork. Innisfree987 (talk) 22:18, 16 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks to, there's already detailed coverage of Women's suffrage in Colorado together with a List of Colorado suffragists and a Timeline of women's suffrage in Colorado. : It might be useful to include your redlinked names in the list. As you can see, there are many more red-linked suffragists who might deserve biographies.--Ipigott (talk) 07:12, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

User:SportsOlympic and 500+ articles deleted
Hi all. Just to note that has been blocked after being discovered to be a sock of another account that had previously been blocked too. Per WP:CSD pretty much all of their page creations have been deleted. This is almost 600 articles, and as this user was prolific in creating biographies of women, I thought I'd post this here. If you scroll down the list and spot any that could be saved, you can request a WP:REFUND, which could hopefully salvage some of them. Thanks.  Lugnuts  Fire Walk with Me 10:23, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, I've already partly re-created Jane Parker-Smith. Pam  D  15:05, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for bringing our attention to this, . The last time round it took us about six months to re-establish our statistics. Perhaps some of our admins could look into the possibility of draftifying all the articles on women so that those interested can re-create those which are most useful. We should have a better picture of the overall damage when Humaniki provides the next update.--Ipigott (talk) 15:08, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I note that the G5 criteria include "any pages created via the sock account after the earliest block or ban of any of that person's accounts qualify for G5 (if not substantially edited by others)"... I'm pretty sure I did some substantial work on Jane Parker-Smith, and I wonder whether any selectivity is being used in deleting those 600? How much work by non-sock editors is being thrown away? Pam  D  15:10, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I see from here that 78 of those created in October have been deleted.--Ipigott (talk) 15:19, 12 November 2021 (UTC) Even more in September and especially in July. Maybe those who have worked on them will recognize some of the names from the diffs.--Ipigott (talk) 15:24, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

I certainly hope all these articles had wikidata items because scrolling down a no-context list of names is not super productive … AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 15:24, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
 * If I remember correctly, the last time round - about four years ago - it was agreed that all the women's biographies would be draftified so that people could check them out and re-create those they found most important. : I believe you were involved in the last round. Any chance of re-establishing the same procedure?--Ipigott (talk) 15:43, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
 * , sorry; I don't recall working on that. Maybe some of the other WiR admins? --Rosiestep (talk) 15:52, 12 November 2021 (UTC)


 * It's not just the work of WiR editors which may have been wasted, but editors everywhere else too. Unless we know that the list were checked pre-deletion to ensure that the "(if not substantially edited by others)" was met in each case, then perhaps we should ask (where?) that a list of deleted items be sent to each Wikiproject, so that interested editors can consider reviving the articles. I don't know where such a suggestion could be made: ideas? Or, just have a single list (or table?) which listed the relevant Wikiprojects for each deleted article, so interested editors could skim, sort, or search to see the poets or politicians and ignore the footballers, or whatever floats their boat. (J P-S was a classical organist) Pam  D  15:58, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
 * < The list you link above is not a complete list, either: the Jane Parker-Smith article was deleted by, so I don't know how many others were deleted by them or others as well as the list you link.  Pam  D  16:08, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Oops: forgot the distinction between nominating for CSD (as on that list) and doing the deletion (as by Materialscientist etc). I still hope that at one stage or the other the "(if not substantially edited by others)" was checked. Pam  D  16:12, 12 November 2021 (UTC)


 * - you're right, it's not the full list - it's much worse. According to xtools, they had 2,829 page creations, with 2,211 (78.2%) being deleted.  Lugnuts  Fire Walk with Me 16:15, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
 * That list also includes redirects, so the real number is probably closer to 600. –&#8239;Joe (talk) 16:35, 12 November 2021 (UTC)


 * And they go back to March 2000. X tools is indeed a good means of seeing exactly what has been deleted. I've been looking back over our previous actions when Sander.v.Ginkel's articles were deleted in early 2017. There is an interesting discussion here.--Ipigott (talk) 16:39, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
 * No, that's an "exclude redirects" count. Usedtobecool ☎️ 16:42, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
 * As far as I know xtools is not capable of detecting whether a deleted article was a redirect. The list in the link above includes many redirects. –&#8239;Joe (talk) 16:45, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
 * It's easy to see which ones are redirects from the "original size" column.--Ipigott (talk) 17:04, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Ah, OK! It is excluding live redirects but can't check what the deleted ones were. That makes sense. Usedtobecool ☎️ 17:05, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
 * At a rough guess, I would say almost 2,000 actual articles were deleted. I don't know if anyone is really interested in re-creating any of them or if we should just wait until people find them on our redlists.--Ipigott (talk) 17:19, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The account's page creation log filtered by "mw-new-redirect" gives 1302 results. 764 redirects are live, per xtools. So, that's 538 deleted redirects, out of 2211. Means 1677 deleted non-redirects (assuming I didn't mess up again).It should be possible to gain consensus for restoring them to draft or project space. WP:AN seems like the obvious choice. Regards! Usedtobecool ☎️ 17:51, 12 November 2021 (UTC)


 * I managed to save some of them. Since G5 is a worthless CSD category that has nothing to do with anything actually being wrong with the articles in question, just punishing the sock accounts for socking (similar to the worthless revenge-based prison system in backwards countries of the world, mine included), you can quite easily protect the articles if you catch them right after CSD listing. All you have to do is add a reference and a couple sentences and then you've made a substantial contribution to the article and it no longer qualifies for G5. If anyone knows how to find such lists of sock account created articles that other editors are going off of to list for CSG G5, then you could even preemptively make such edits. In the future, when this happens again, we should work together to prevent the G5 editors from further harming Wikipedia. Silver  seren C 20:06, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
 * G5 has its uses, but we don't have to agree on that. I just wanted to point out that you can remove G5 from articles if you are prepared to take full responsibility for whatever the page contains at the time, as if you wrote it yourself. You can cite the deletion policy WP:CSD (its lead), and the banning policy, WP:BAN, which says on PROXYING, Editors in turn are not permitted to post or edit material at the direction of a banned or blocked editor (sometimes called proxy editing or proxying) unless they are able to show that the changes are either verifiable or productive and they have independent reasons for making such edits. Editors who reinstate edits made by a banned or blocked editor take complete responsibility for the content. You can also cite the deletion notice template itself which says you can remove it if you intend to fix the page. I don't expect everyone to know this, so you should expect to have to explain it to anyone who might edit-war with you or come to warn you, including possibly admins. You can watchlist Category:Candidates for speedy deletion as having been created by blocked or banned users to keep track of what's up for deletion. G5 deletion usually takes longer than other CSDs because there are more incorrect taggings for this than some of the others, and checking is also more cumbersome. On the other hand, admins working at WP:SPI make G5 deletions without tagging the page first, so most such pages never even get to that category. I also suspect some admins maintain a list of editors they trust to correctly tag CSDs which they can delete without checking, which will be quick too.IMO, G5 deletions ought to be refundable because a page could have nothing wrong with it and editors are allowed to save it if they "intend to fix" it. However, having made such common sense arguments (but not exactly this one) at WP:REFUND before and seen them not work, I would think we'd need an RFC to get G5 into the refund eligible bunch. Currently, G5 is not among either lists at the top of WP:REFUND. Regards! Usedtobecool ☎️ 07:53, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * From the SPI: "Sander.v.Ginkel was originally sanctioned because their BLP articles were often poorly referenced and contained errors (see the ANI case); similar issues have been reported with SportsOlympic's editing". So mass rescue attempts that do not individually and carefully examine and correct these sourcing issues are problematic. It's that level of individual attention that's supposed to distinguish articles with substantial edits by others from the G5-worthy articles primarily edited by the banned editor. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:29, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Looking ahead, having noticed some thinly referenced BLPs is why I suggest that for our Feb/Mar Olympics & Paralympics event, we make it a contest with thresholds for eligible entries. Maybe it would be beneficial to set a minimum number of references, not just prose? Innisfree987 (talk) 20:55, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
 * And yet most of the ones I looked at were notable subjects with plenty of references available. Meaning the only problem was having them be added in. And we have tags and other things to note that need. Deleting them doesn't help anyone. Silver  seren C 21:19, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Are the articles being checked for other editors' substantial contributions before being nominated, or before being deleted? I'm pretty sure I'd worked on Jane Parker-Smith. Surely a bot could do a quick assessment of editors' contributions and flag up those ineligible for G5? Pam  D  20:46, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Ask someone who participated in the mass deletion. I have no idea. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:48, 12 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Both steps are supposed to involve checking the history. But I've noticed that neither group really does. Several of the ones I added to were still deleted and then restored once I pointed out to the admins that I had made a substantial contribution (and noted in my edit summary that even, saying "Here's me making a significant contribution to the article"). Admin Liz is one of the only ones I know that does check and you can tell they do, because they actually decline CSDs, whereas the other admins practically never do. Silver  seren C 21:22, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Statistics just updated – 19.11% at at 8 Nov, down from 19.12% on 1 Nov. But we should also note the change in Notability (sports) when preparing for Winter Olympics/Paralympics. It now requires winning a medal, not just competing, which may affect heaps of existing articles that lack other demonstration of notability leading to a much bigger impact than the recent sockpuppet deletions.--Oronsay (talk) 21:54, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Just to note, I believe others can still be notable if they meet GNG. But yes it will have a big impact (probably including on which SportsOlympic creations could be rescued, even if someone took it upon themselves to reference them.) Innisfree987 (talk) 22:07, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Ed Bullins and Pat Parker
I just removed a claim that Ed Bullins was physically abusive towards Pat Parker during their brief marriage because (1) the source seems unreliable and (2) does not specifically mention Bullins. (I was initially confused about where exactly the "scared to death" language came from but have now found the right page, so the edit summary is misleading, for which I apologize). The source claims it is reproducing an interview published in Hera in 1975. Does anyone know how to access this magazine? I don't want to scrub bad facts about Bullins and thereby contribute to gender bias, but I also don't want to report things like this without good sourcing. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 15:39, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree it is better to err on the side of caution. This says she was interested in opening dialogue on domestic violence because she had a sister who was murdered by her spouse, nada about it happening to her personally. I think we'd need a strong RS to make that statement, but haven't found anything. SusunW (talk) 17:11, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I haven't been able to find anything other than blogs, uncurated sources that make that claim. I did find this link to the archive that holds Hera. They might be willing to e-mail you the article if you are interested in contacting them. (I've had good success with the "Ask a Librarian" feature of Worldcat.) SusunW (talk) 17:20, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * @SusunW, thanks very much as always. There was a brief, unclear mention of "allegations of violence" in Bullins's NYT obit, but that's the only clearly reliable thing I've found so far. Agree, archivists are usually very helpful! May contact SDSU. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 17:33, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

First full-length Broadway musical authored entirely by women?
I'd appreciate any help fleshing out these drafts below - These are four women who at different points had their hands in creating a musical called Just Because (1922), which (according to the Library of Congress) "may well have been the first full-length Broadway musical authored entirely by women".

All of the women seemed pretty involved in each other's work, so I'm having a hard time repeating info and sources x4 and keeping all the information straight between their contributions. If anyone's up for it, it might be worth starting an draft/article on the play as well, either Just Because (musical) or Just Because (play). - Whisperjanes (talk) 01:30, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Draft:Anna Wynne O'Ryan
 * Draft:Helen Smith Woodruff
 * Draft:Madelyn Sheppard
 * Draft:Annelu Burns
 * Some info I've been struggling with: Who wrote what for the play, since sources differ (I'm pretty sure one worked on the "book", one on the "music" and one on the "lyrics", but I've lost the original source(s) I saw that in, (from this source) while Annelu Burns wrote... the original play herself and sold the rights?) When was Anna Wynne O'Ryan born? - Whisperjanes (talk) 01:33, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * JMO, I’d create the article about the play first, then short bios of each person within the article, then if there’s enough info for any or all to get a stand-alone, it will be easy to do that. Montanabw (talk) 03:42, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Please do start an entry for the play User:Whisperjanes. My impression is the last 3 are all independently notable. I haven't delved deeply into O'Ryan so she may ne as well. FloridaArmy (talk) 03:11, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks, and  - I went ahead and started Draft:Just Because (musical); I think that's the right call to try to figure out who wrote what for the play itself. There's one newspaper source that states credits were incorrectly reported on (that Woodruff didn't write the musical, only bought the rights to it), but I haven't found any other sources that back that up. And I agree, FloridaArmy - O'Ryan died somewhat suddenly, which I thought might be why there's less coverage of her, but her death itself got some newspaper coverage because of the strange circumstances around it. - Whisperjanes (talk) 04:17, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
 * By the way, Just Because (musical) has been moved to mainspace! Thanks all :) - Whisperjanes (talk) 05:33, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

I found a photo of some of the people involved: File:Madelyn Sheppard, J.B. Wells, Mrs. L.B. Woodruff, Annelu Burns LCCN2014707542.tif Gamaliel  ( talk ) 18:29, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Ohhh, great photo! This could definitely be added to at least 3 of the articles. And it seems they're rehearsing this sheet music, so that might be a good avenue I can follow up on. - Whisperjanes (talk) 19:59, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
 * O'Ryan was born 1877 this says 50 at death and is confirmed by this. This also has some info about her. SusunW (talk) 20:39, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Oh yay, the date of birth! It looks like I have her father's name now, as well. Thanks :) - Whisperjanes (talk) 17:39, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * De nada. Glad to help. SusunW (talk) 17:42, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Rape camp
Unfortunately, rape camps have not gone out of fashion. I've updated the section Wartime sexual violence to include a brief description of the three known rape camps from the current Tigray War. Boud (talk) 16:26, 21 November 2021 (UTC) See sexual violence in the Tigray War for the Tigray War specific information that we have so far. Boud (talk) 16:27, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

French non-binary pronoun "iel" causes hostile official reactions
In Reuters' "French dictionary sparks debate with non-binary 'iel' pronoun", Geert De Clercq reports on government objections to the inclusion of "iel" in Le Robert. See also coverage in the French version of Wikipedia and in Wiktionary.--Ipigott (talk) 13:16, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Blanquer est contre ? Iel va le trouver difficile à s'opposer à l'usage réel. Qu'iel soit content-e ou non. Boud (talk) 16:39, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Sources for an American author/herpetologist?
Hi there – I have created a number of biographies on women using WiR lists and attempted to make a start on this individual at Draft:Ruth Crosby Noble, but it was unfortunately considered insufficiently sourced over at AfD, where it was suggested I place a note here to see if anyone has any better sourcing to make her draft article mainspace-worthy. Thanks in advance! —AFreshStart (talk) 22:40, 15 November 2021 (UTC)


 * and might help. Editors tend to frown on "Who's Who" books as sources (2d entry), but it might provide a basis for further research. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 22:50, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Here’s a profile that should help too; and a book review. Great subject, happy editing! Innisfree987 (talk) 22:55, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The Nature of the Beast seems to be pretty notable, as per and  and several pay walled reviews I cannot figure out how to link.  has written an essay on why it's often better to have articles on authors with one notable book that makes some good points, and it seems like there's some amount of coverage of Noble herself, too. Eddie891 Talk Work 23:03, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * many paywalled and otherwise hard to get sources can be obtained by posting a request at the Resource Exchange -- Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 19:25, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much for all for your help! I've added some of these references to the article. —AFreshStart (talk) 23:49, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I found a public domain photo, uploading it now. Gamaliel  ( talk ) 23:56, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

has a list of many other women herpetologists/zoologists with whom her husband collaborated. Will likely add to Wikidata soon. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 02:02, 16 November 2021 (UTC) They are:
 * I have access to this paywalled source. I can try to add some information from it later today, but I'm also happy to share the text: just send me an email. Vanamonde (Talk) 00:07, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Another source, also paywalled, but the preview should be sufficient: . Vanamonde (Talk) 00:09, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Helen Teale Bradley aka H. T. Bradley aka Helen K. Teale
 * Sarah Haddock Davis aka S. H. Pope
 * Gertrude Evans
 * Miriam Etta Jaeckle
 * Katherine Frederica Kumpf aka Katherine K. Aplington
 * Edith Rae Mason
 * Sarah Haydock Pope
 * Leah B. Richards — Preceding unsigned comment added by User: (talk • contribs)
 * Sarah Haydock Pope was the wife of herpetologist Clifford Hillhouse Pope. Same person as Sarah Haddock Davis aka S. H. Pope? FloridaArmy (talk) 03:03, 16 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Yes, you're right about that one. Sadly, none of these people seem notable, with the possible exception of Gertrude Evans or Gertrude Evans Sweet, who has an entry in American Men and Women of Science (not enough for notability on its own, but a start). AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 03:44, 16 November 2021 (UTC)