Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Women in Red/Archive 114

Fair use for photos credited to newspaper
Hello again -- Finally got around to finishing up an article on the American oboist Lois Wann, and was about to upload a nice fair-use image when I thought I'd better check the fair-use guidelines as to what size is currently recommended, and was surprised to find that fair use is excluded for "A photo from a press agency or photo agency (e.g., AP or Getty Images), unless the photo itself is the subject of sourced commentary in the article." The image I want to use is credited to Philadelphia Inquirer 1940 and I've not been able to find any further information. It's from p. 35 of the (fascinating) book Groh, Jan Bell. Evening the Score: Women in Music and the Legacy of Frédérique Petrides (University of Arkansas Press; 1994) via Project Muse (specific subscription required). It's identical to the first image found in a Google image search on an oboe blog, which I won't link to in case of copyright issues. I haven't found any other images of Wann online. Any advice appreciated! I know there are lots of image experts here. Thanks, Espresso Addict (talk) 08:12, 15 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Lovely image! I think it’s fine, even if it tends to point up an inconsistency in our policy on this (which I have the impression really strongly errs on the side of caution anyhow.) No idea why there is more presumption of commercial interest for the archives of a photo agency than those of a newspaper/magazine (which can be quite valuable), but I do not understand our fair use policy to exclude all newsmedia images. Innisfree987 (talk) 08:48, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I think you can upload it as a regular commons upload. 1940 photographs had a 28 year copyright and to be protected beyond that point had to be renewed. So, it was published in the Philadelphia Inquirer in 1940. At that time, it was copyrighted by virtue of their masthead claim. However, in the "Renewals" section of the Catalog of Copyright Entries for periodicals (pp. 383-419), there is no entry for the Inquirer (which registered as Triangle Publications, Inc.) in 1968. The maker was Grace Voss, i.e. Grace Voss Frederick, who died in 2009. In 1940, only one entry for a work of art, i.e. painting, sculpture, photograph, etc. was registered for anyone named Voss, and that was not Grace. Thus, you should be safe to upload it with the tag . SusunW (talk) 14:10, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
 * And thanks for asking the question, as had you not, I would never have known about this photographer, whose article needs serious work. SusunW (talk) 14:37, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
 * One more tidbit, working on Voss has shown she did file other copyrights in the 1940s-1950s, so the fact that she didn't here makes me doubly sure you are okay to use that image. SusunW (talk) 14:06, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Excellent, thanks for all the research help, ! Espresso Addict (talk) 14:13, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Women in World Politics
I have created an index of the women politicians with entries in the 1991 Who's Who of Women in World Politics which includes a lot of articles that could be expanded, created or translated. The full list is at User:Sammielh/Who%27s_Who_of_Women_in_World_Politics if this is helpful for anyone else! (There are definitely going to be some typos though so please double-check the correct name of the article before creating one!) Sammielh (talk) 10:36, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks,, for sharing this useful list. The interlanguage links you have included should be useful for our translation contest or simply as a basis for improving our coverage of women politicians country bu country. : Any ideas on how to add this list to our resources?--Ipigott (talk) 09:06, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
 * This is awesome, . A big thank you for creating this list., I think the contents could be copied into a WiR redlist à la "Dct" formation, such as the others we have here: WikiProject Women in Red/Redlist index. For proper attribution, the copying should follow this process: Copying within Wikipedia. Plus there should be a note at the top regarding: "double-check the correct name per the list creator". --Rosiestep (talk) 13:48, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I hope will be able to handle this. I am not too happy about copying work by other contributors.--Ipigott (talk) 14:55, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks and ! The list has been added to Dictionaries and other reference works at WikiProject Women in Red/Missing articles by dictionary/Who's Who of Women in World Politics Sammielh (talk) 16:54, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Great! Thank you. Rosiestep (talk) 16:56, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Image Description Week (16-22 May 2022)
If you're like me, and a lot of other Wikipedians, you aren't as good with image descriptions as you are writing biographies. So I was glad to learn about m:Image Description Week (16-22 May 2022). First session starts tomorrow May 17th and I'll be there. Okay to be anonymous (turn off audio and video). --Rosiestep (talk) 19:21, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for sharing. I only caught the last 20 minutes of the first session, but what I saw was excellent and it was recorded so, hopefully, the video will be made available in due course.--Oronsay (talk) 17:24, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Roe vs. Wade
After trying to deconstruct that Wikipedia page for some Wikipedians over at nlwiki I realized this page has grown way beyond what normal people are willing and able to consult for bar talk using a mobile phone. Is there any quick explainer for non-USA readers that would break down what is happening in the US right now on the subject of abortion? Because reading the Roe vs. Wade article is not particularly helpful. Any tips welcome! Jane (talk) 08:10, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * OMG a quick tour of the normal "ontology" route (law, law subject, laws about the subject) bring me to "Abortion Law" and "Abortion in the United States" and both have grown beyond their potential usability for people trying to understand what's going on. I think putting "Abortion Law" into "Abortion in the United States" was a bit of a mix-up and agree that Abortion is not the same as Abortion Law. I am missing a section on trigger laws per state, because as far as I can tell, this is the most direct threat to lives & welfare of US pregnant people and/or their caregivers this year. We now have Trigger law, but that doesn't translate well considering the conflation with gun legislation (which also has trigger laws). I think the concept of a trigger law is helpful, but I also think the Abortion laws per state with their associated history of legislation (including for tribal nations) and trigger laws is needed. Jane (talk) 09:09, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I cannot speak for everyone. This is too emotional an issue to write on now for me, but what you are asking is nigh on to impossible. There are nearly 550 federally recognized tribes and 50 states, not to mention some 60 state recognized tribes. That being said, many Federally-recognized tribes benefit from the Indian Health Service which is a federally run organization, thus its available services would follow federal law. There is no national health service in the US and available health care varies widely depending on where one lives. If you want a parallel of a likely scenario if SCOTUS overturns Roe, look at any "red vs blue states 2022 map" and red ones will likely indicate where women, especially poor women, will have limited/no rights. SusunW (talk) 14:05, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I realize this is an extremely complex issue for the non-English wikis. As it is likely to evolve over the coming months, my advice would be to provide a good explanatory lead, covering the historical background and summarizing the political issues which still need to be resolved. It is of course a key component in everything to do with women's rights but it should not be forgotten that the United States was instrumental in allowing abortions as early as 1973. (See Abortion in the United States). I would suggest that only really meaningful developments should be included in articles on Roe vs. Wade in other wikis.--Ipigott (talk) 18:37, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi thanks for the comments. I have been reading recent coverage and listening to various podcasts and chuckling as I realize how impossible it is to give a short version of the facts. I mean, for example, how do you explain that reversing Roe will affect gay or interracial marriage? You basically have to go all the way back to how the US Supreme Court was set up and the situation regarding legislation vs their decisions influencing laws. Even the Planned Parenthood website has trouble giving a short summary. The main problem is that the issues covered by Roe are different per stakeholder party (caregiver, pregnant person, other indirect stakeholder). Now I am trying to wrap my head around the type of lead you need according to reader audience. Such a puzzle, but I am slowly coming to see that it might be better to frame the current Roe debate as an event that quotes laws & SCOTUS decisions, rather than trying to cover it in such articles - we will probably only have more such "events" (and this is the reason those articles have ballooned out of control already). Jane (talk) 08:09, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Oh and I am trying to read all the coverage with my Wikidata hat on as well, so "extremely complex issue for the non-English wikis" applies there as well: how to you link these issues in time (decisions, law), governing body (SCOTUS, US Congress, state legislatures), stakeholder (do Roe, Wade & Casey even matter at this point?), breaking news issue (leak, leaker, trigger law, trigger law repeal). Arrgh!! Jane (talk) 08:21, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Template:Did you know nominations/Kathleen Freeman (classicist)
I have reviewed the DYK nomination for a new good article relevant to this project, Kathleen Freeman (classicist), but the nominator Srsval has not answered any of my questions for three weeks. (They did respond on their talk page on 3 May, saying that they hadn't had time.) Would anybody be willing to adopt the nomination? Otherwise it may get rejected as stale. I have also notified Wikipedia talk:Women's Classical Committee. TSventon (talk) 07:56, 17 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks for bringing this to our attention but I am surprised at all your red crosses as Kathleen Freeman (classicist) reached GA status as recently as 13 April. Articles reaching GA are generally included on DYK without major difficulties. Is all this additional research really necessary? I certainly sympathize with the nominator for not having time to look into all your queries.--Ipigott (talk) 10:57, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
 * @TSventon I'll pick it up! Lajmmoore (talk) 17:04, 17 May 2022 (UTC)


 * , thank you for the offer, this was my first DYK review of a GA, so any feedback will be welcome. I don't think any of the questions I raised were particularly difficult. TSventon (talk) 17:14, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
 * @TSventon I've addressed all the points you raised, and added an ALT1 - I am more tired than I thought, so got a bit confused about the newspaper clipping. Let me know if you think there are further changes needed Lajmmoore (talk) 18:35, 17 May 2022 (UTC)


 * I very much welcome this fruitful collaboration and see that there now seems to be only one point requiring attention. Thank you, for devoting so much time and effort to sorting things out.--Ipigott (talk) 05:35, 18 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks all, I have passed the nomination and moved the remaining question to the article talk page. TSventon (talk) 19:12, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Donation to WiR?
Hello. Does WiR accept donations? I have a research participant who would like to donate their reward for participating in WMF research to WiR, but I see no indication that WiR accepts donations. Will someone please direct me to your donation channels or someone to speak to on the matter? Thanks. BGerdemann (WMF) (talk) 16:12, 17 May 2022 (UTC) / bgerdemann@wikimedia.org

So, passing back to WP:WMF might be the best. Alternately, if someone here has an idea of a post-card campaign or sponsoring a edit-a-thon or some sort of give-aways that might be worth it. I will admit, I have little idea of the mechanics of orchestrating such a campaign. Best wishes and please thank the the research participant for thinking of this project. Ktin (talk) 16:27, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
 * we do have a bank account. I donated my winnings from a contest as well, in the hopes that at some point we can use it to purchase resource materials. knows the information about it. SusunW (talk) 16:35, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi, . Yes, WiR accepts donations! Our fiscal sponsor is m:Wikimedia District of Columbia. The current president is ; if you contact him, he can provide the banking info for a donation. Thank you!
 * P.S. All, I have also made donations to the WiR account, e.g. honorariums from speaking engagements. I don't believe that, to date, WiR has spent any of the money in its account. As mentions, it was set up with a view of purchasing resource materials. Maybe there are other thoughts about how to use it? --Rosiestep (talk) 16:46, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I think I would be great if we could pay a coder to get the WiR pages into an updated format. Everything is legacy with interlocking templates etc. Waaaay beyond my coding skills. I mean something like WikiProject COVID-19. Best, WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 00:50, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Good suggestion, . I think it might be useful to explain to and any others working on Wikipedia tools that we are considering devoting independent funding to updating our vital membership registration facility which has not functioned correctly for quite some time. Maybe we could obtain details of what needs to be done to get the system up and running again. I believe  once looked into it. We could then try to find someone able to take on the work. I have not devoted any funds to WiR but have always refused payments in connection with competitions, etc., simply suggesting that they should be used for others. As there appears to be some confusion about this, it might be useful to have a page about donations to WiR. There's certainly much more we could do if we were able to draw on private funding. Indeed, those interested in donating might well have ideas of their own.--Ipigott (talk) 06:06, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * What do you miss from WikiProject COVID-19 at WikiProject Women in Red? I can try doing some updates if we have some agreement on what should be done. MarioGom (talk) 10:12, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi ! Actually, I don't have an issue with our landing page, but I work from a desktop with a 21" screen, using Source editor. My understanding is that these days most users are accessing Wikipedia from their phones and using visual editor. My impression is that we have a legacy space that works for those of us who have been around for awhile but the small screen isn't welcoming. I have no ideas or insight on visual editing on a phone and think a professional opinion would be good. I also just imagine that the tabs on the top of the page are more phone friendly. Personally, I can find everything I need in the template at the bottom of the page "Template:Women in Red navigation". WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 18:08, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I had the same idea that we should probably update our media pages with donation information, but then wondered if that meant we would need to be more formally organized. We tried for a couple of years to work with the WP Library on a women's collection of materials, but just couldn't figure out a way to do it. We also tried to work out an arrangement for WiR to secure a subscription for AllAfrica but were never able to obtain sufficient information about organizational access, because we wanted to make sure all WiR members would be able to access their collections. Maybe it's time to revisit the issue of organization, funding, etc.? SusunW (talk) 13:33, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I suppose the least we could do would be to draw up a list of the present shortcomings of our tools, formats and page setups. Another item which seems to cause unnecessary trouble is the (lack of) regular updating of our redlists. If it's too difficult to handle all this on the basis of donations, then perhaps programmers like could apply for WMF funding.--Ipigott (talk) 14:58, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi, I agree that finding/funding a fix for the membership registration and updating of our redlists should be the priority. Those issues come up again and again.WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 18:13, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * So it seems mobile would be the focus for improvements, especially mobile editing? Which project pages do we expect to need such improvements? Event pages for signup? Also crowd-sourced redlists? MarioGom (talk) 18:37, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * My thought is that this is an area where the Foundation or other Wikiprojects have traveled. If the issue of small screens has been encountered and solved elsewhere, we could leverage that information. There's gotta be a coder out there working in best practices for the mobile version, or fixing deprecated code. On the other hand, if WiRers are all old school, don't need/want mobile, maybe we just need to make a list of what we know is broken as Ipigott suggested. WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 19:33, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm all for improving usability, but we'd need to articulate what are we trying to achieve. A list of issues, as mentioned, would be a good place to start. MarioGom (talk) 22:33, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

User welcome template
Twinkle has a list of welcome templates for various wikiprojects, but WiR isn't on there. It's the one I'd want to use most often - would anyone be interested in creating one? Or is there some good reason it doesn't already exist? asilvering (talk) 18:28, 18 May 2022 (UTC)


 * There's an invitation template at WikiProject Women in Red invite, but we could use a welcome template too. MarioGom (talk) 22:41, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * This is great as it is, thank you! -- asilvering (talk) 01:58, 19 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks for looking into this, . Rather than using a standard welcome template for new members of the project, I have always tried to adapt my response to the specific messages made in connection with registration. I generally also look into the new member's background, contributions and any new articles. Perhaps you remember the welcome message I sent to you on 23 November 2021. Up to now, I have found this pretty effective but if you feel we should adopt a less time-consuming approach which could be used by any of our members (and not just me), we could discuss things further. Your own progress has been particularly successful, especially your recent translated biography of Adélaïde Valentin. Keep up the good work.


 * In this connection, may I once again suggest that we increase our efforts to encourage new participants in the project. Thanks,, for reminding us that we have a useful invite template which anyone can use. We've been averaging less than ten new members a month. Let's see if we can achieve a significant increase over the rest of the year.--Ipigott (talk) 05:49, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Join the WikiAPA edit-a-thon (2022-05-19) with the Smithsonian Asian Pacific American Center
On May 19, 2022 (1pm to 3:30pm Eastern US), join us online to help improve articles for AAPI Heritage Month. Editing of all AAPI topics is encouraged but will be focused on a worklist of women's biographies built from the forthcoming anthology We Are Here: 30 Inspiring Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders Who Shaped the United States, from the Smithsonian Institution, which features the stories of Asian American and Pacific Islander women, nonbinary, third gender, and transgender people.


 * Register at the Eventbrite page to join by Zoom, hosted by User:Fuzheado and User:KellyDoyle.
 * More information and the worklist are available on the WikiProject coordination page.
 * No experience necessary as we teach you how to edit and improve Wikipedia. Also includes demonstrations of related projects Wikimedia Commons and Wikidata.
 * Organized in coordination with Smithsonian Asian Pacific American Center and the American Women's History Initiative.

- Fuzheado &#124; Talk 08:40, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Azmat Khan, Pulitzer Prize winning journalist
I created a draft for Azmat Khan. She won a Pulitzer recently, which certainly makes her notable enough for an article. Thriley (talk) 03:01, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
 * A new editor recently added a lot of material to the draft. Needs a bit of cleanup which I’ll do now. Thriley (talk) 03:02, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I have gone ahead and moved the draft to main article space, as the rejection at Articles for Creation on May 9 was improper. She is clearly notable as a Pulitzer Prize winner, and the article should exist in article space so folks can help improve it. Thanks. - Fuzheado &#124; Talk 08:28, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
 * thank you! Thriley (talk) 17:48, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Kathy Barnette nominated for deletion
Kathy Barnette, a controversial American political figure has been been nominated for deletion. In my opinion, she meets the notability threshold, with significant coverage going back several years. Her latest campaign was a proxy battle between different elements of the Republican Party. I foresee many votes to delete rooted in a dislike of Barnette and not a through analysis of the source material. I would appreciate any help in looking at the sourcing and overseeing the deletion nomination. Thank you, Thriley (talk) 17:53, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Kimberly Drew
Just de-PROD'ed Kimberly Drew who is clearly notable, PROD'ed by an anonymous user. Page looks OK to me but if someone else has time, my initial impression is that it could incorporate a bit more gravitas (which is there in some of the coverage that is already cited, plus the Black Futures page). Cielquiparle (talk) 12:41, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Question about a draft
So I was working on an article for Curlee Gumbs, and I found a couple news articles about a Curlee Gumbs that competed in a beauty pageant in Anguilla, for whom the ages match, and I was wondering if that is too big of a stretch to make on Wikipedia. There’s also only one “Curlee Gumbs” on Anguilla’s voting register too. Sorry if this doesn’t belong here MRN2electricboogaloo (talk) 03:34, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
 * without providing a "chain of evidence", i.e. something that says the athlete is the beauty contestant, inclusion of the material is original research and not allowed. SusunW (talk) 14:41, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you MRN2electricboogaloo (talk) 18:52, 22 May 2022 (UTC)


 * The date of birth element is compelling, but a couple of photos suggest they may be different people. CG, far left on this image, shirt has Anguilla logo, so pretty sure there's no photo caption mix-up versus pageant person and pageant person. Whatever our speculation, SusunW has it nailed. --Tagishsimon (talk) 20:10, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Draft:Marcia Alice Herndon
Does anyone with an interest in ethnomusicology or anthropology want to have a look at this draft? It feels like a lost WikiEdu assignment. I've pulled a lot of WP:OR out of it but it's still not in great shape. She's obviously notable, but I hesitate to hit "accept" on it in its current state. -- asilvering (talk) 19:18, 18 May 2022 (UTC)


 * I've done a bit of copy editing on this and added categories. Looks almost ready for article space but maybe would first like to look through it.--Ipigott (talk) 08:09, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
 * , fascinating article about a truly amazing human being. Tying healing to music is kind of my life so I can totally understand her points of view. I didn't see much if any copy editing that needed to be done. The article is very heavily reliant on what some would call primary sources (her own works) so it might help if we can find one more independent source to add. I've seen most reviewers accept outright if there are three independent sources but two is better than one., thank you for including me in this. It's truly remarkable to see the similarities in our view on music and how it is tied to culture, thought and body. I love that you brought out she was a story teller. Story telling was and still is very important to Cherokee culture. All around amazingly beautiful article that shares her Song with all of us. -- A Rose Wolf  12:33, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
 * , I'm so sorry. I obviously didn't read your statement in full above and I apologize. I was so wrapped up in the excitement of reading the article that I skimmed over the statements here and responded in haste before I took a second look. Ii was when I went back to review it and look for additional sources that I noticed came to the rescue, as she always does and in her typical extraordinary and amazing fashion. I believe, with the secondary sources that Susun added, the article is safe to accept into mainspace and will withstand any scrutiny thrown its way. -- A Rose  Wolf  15:45, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm not remotely finished. Still working on it. SusunW (talk) 16:09, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
 * @SusunW What a transformation! You're a hero. I don't want to edit-conflict you with a page move so I'll leave it in draftspace for now. -- asilvering (talk) 20:05, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
 * please, please do leave it as a draft and thank you for your kind words. I'm pretty good with research, but work slowly, because I compare various sources while I'm writing. I don't work well in mainspace (it stresses me out.) It will probably be tomorrow before I can finish the research section, as I have a doctor's appointment in an hour. SusunW (talk) 20:27, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I think I'm done. Deleted the OR and tried to find at least one review for the articles that Cynthia Tse Kimberlin & Pirkko Moisala and Robertson noted were her most important works. My biggest "I don't know" is if she is/was a member of the Eastern Cherokee tribe or rather she had Cherokee ancestry. I would be reluctant to actually tag her as Native American until we have clarification on that, because only the tribe has the right to define who its members are. Perhaps knows of an avenue to resolve that point. At any rate, I've tried to write it as the sources indicate, showing she was an expert only. I think you can move it if you concur it's ready for mainspace, but I would also note the WP:Commonname is Marcia Herndon, not Marcia Alice Herndon. SusunW (talk) 17:38, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Usually when ones sees "of Cherokee heritage" it means that they had Cherokee relatives, in this case her grand parents though it isn't stated on which side, but are not official members. The EBCI requires a direct lineage to someone on the 1924 Baker Roll as well as 1/16th or more Cherokee blood. The Cherokee Nation only requires a direct lineage to one or more persons on the Dawes Roll but has no blood requirement. I think Cherokee heritage is sufficient barring some concrete evidence supporting a different outcome. -- A Rose Wolf  17:53, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you . I can try to work with that. SusunW (talk) 17:58, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
 * , I'll post something on Indigenous peoples of North America. I added the template to the talk page because of her connection with the ethnomusicology of Native American music not because of any purported connection with any tribe or nation. -- A Rose Wolf  18:10, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
 * from what I am seeing, that's the way to go. Her parents were George Everett(e) and Harline/Alma (née Simmons) Herndon. I think Harline may be an error because the 1940 census a year before her birth gives George's wife's name as Alma, which matches his wife on the death certificate. Marcia's paternal grandparents were Verma (née Hooker) and George Washington Herndon because Verma's obit clearly lists Marcia as her granddaughter. If this is the complete list of the 1924 Baker Roll, none of the surnames in her family except Herndon appear on the list and so far, I find no connection to Lizzie M. as George's parents were Erasmus and Amelia Herndon from South Carolina. SusunW (talk) 18:53, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
 * , I'm struggling with the "half-breed" statement and especially the "elder" status. They might be in the sources but what weight if any do they carry without being able to verify the claim? She couldn't be and elder unless she was, herself, enrolled in the EBCI. They don't just hand those positions out. Heritage? Perhaps. She's amazing and has left quite an impact without the claims being in the article. -- A Rose Wolf  19:06, 20 May 2022 (UTC) --edited 19:07, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
 * , I struggled with it too, but the source says she called herself "half-breed". Several sources indicate she studied and trained in Cherokee rituals and healing, which I cannot imagine would have been open to an outsider. So, it is a conundrum. Please feel free to edit it however you think best. SusunW (talk) 19:13, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
 * , Same with her being an authority on anything Eastern Band of Cherokee or Cherokee traditions in general. I'm not comfortable with that being said in Wiki-voice without some corroborating document outside someone referencing to her own memoirs or works. Maybe there is a way around that though. Similar to how we said she referred to herself as this. We can find a way to include it as it is in the sources but in such a way as we are saying she called herself this or someone else referred to her as that. At least until we might be able to find some non-digitized sources. Do you think that would work? -- A Rose Wolf  19:21, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
 * perhaps, she was recognized "by her academic peers"? Those are who called her that, though I note that Cynthia Tse Kimberlin who is Navajo was one of those academics. Kimberlin also says it was her "Cherokee maternal grandparents" but that seems unlikely because her mom was from Tennessee, not North Carolina and her dad's family lived in Canton per Verma's obit. SusunW (talk) 19:31, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I tweaked both sentences. Better? SusunW (talk) 19:38, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
 * , much better! Cherokee in Tennessee may not as far fetched as one might believe. It's possible that there were Cherokee in Tennessee at the time (the old Cherokee Nation before the Removal stretched from Alabama into Georgia and up through Tennessee into the Carolinas) but how possible I just don't know. It's likely she was recognized by her peers as such so that works. It would be great if we could find out who her maternal grandparents were but that's how it goes sometimes. -- A Rose Wolf  19:45, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'm aware of the historical connection to other states, but there are zero instances of Simmons on that Roll. Her mom's obit is not remotely helpful and so far I haven't found any ancestry for her. SusunW (talk) 19:53, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The claims in the sources are enough to have them in the article and I believe you have sufficiently taken the claims out of Wiki-voice. I'm not sure much more can be done so maybe someone else will see our conversation or the article and provide non-digital sources or sources not online to fill in the blanks. Simply amazing work you did, Susun. Thank you! -- A Rose Wolf  20:00, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
 * That's the hope, and I put a note on the talk page. I found her mom's folks. Alma's death certificate lists her as Marcia's mom and says she was born in Hartford, Tennessee and her parents were Alice Cates and John Simmons. John died in 1957 and at that time, he and Alice were still living in Hartford, so it seems completely unlikely that the grandparents she grew up living "near" could have been her mother's parents. Neither Cates nor Simmons appears on the Baker Roll. SusunW (talk) 20:21, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
 * , her Cherokee heritage as described by her colleagues and herself seems less and less plausible the more you find. That's frustrating and a little disappointing. -- A Rose Wolf  20:27, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Still a fascinating individual and amazing woman. I'm so glad you worked on her article, Susun. And you did such amazing work that I think you should put it up for WP:GA as suggested by. -- A Rose Wolf  20:33, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I do think it unlikely at this point, but I try to be careful. If we err, it should be on the side of caution. It's complicated and since I have family on both the enrolled and not spectra, I get the situation pretty well. Full disclosure, I am not Native American. My great-grandfather's second wife (my family is from the first wife) was Native American and some of her family chose to enroll, while others didn't. Okay, I'll nominate it. SusunW (talk) 20:39, 20 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Not a WiR member, but popped over here because she's a North Carolinian. Article looks good, but someone might want to double check the copyright status of that photo. Searches have done to look for copyright renewal, but they were done searching "UPI Telephoto" and "variations". UPI stands for "United Press International", a wire service and press agency. It's very risky to use press agency photos., what vairations did you check? "United Press International" and "UPI Newspicture" (their division which distributed telephotos) would be good ones. Per this LoC information page on UPI photos generally, there is good reason to believe the photo is indeed out of copyright, but it wouldn't hurt to be doubly sure. -Indy beetle (talk) 21:03, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I checked, as I said on the upload every variation I could think of: UPI, United Press International, UPI Telephoto, Telephoto, UPI Newspicture, Newspicture, United Press. I could not find another use of the photo in either newpapers.com or newspaperarchive.com except in the Denton paper, and I also checked for that, as sometimes other uses will give you a specific photographer or other information. I would not have uploaded it had I not done the searches and provided my "evidence" of same. If you want to check further, the link to the catalog is on the upload. Please feel free to check, as it is possible I missed something. SusunW (talk) 21:23, 20 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Thank you, and, for the excellent work you have done on this biography. It's this kind of constructive collaboration that makes Women in Red such a successful project. I am no expert on American or Cherokee history but have followed the discussions with interest and am learning more every day!--Ipigott (talk) 08:14, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks . I enjoy working with Asareel. She would say our songs work in harmony. Native history is complex and difficult. The United States government first tried to annihilate the tribes even while recognizing their sovereignty. Native people experienced extreme racism from society. (My own step-great-grandmother had a "back of the bus" story 2 decades before Rosa Parks.) One of the ways the government tried to destroy Native cultures was to force tribal people to give up their communal territory and receive individual allotments of land. Often those who accepted an allotment were mixed-race and more assimilated people, because those who were full-bloods were more distrustful of the government and white society. To dish out those allotments, the government created "official rolls" (sort of like a census) to specify who was or was not a member of a tribe. The tribe could challenge membership, but there was a lot of graft, i.e. officials enrolled dead persons and then claiming the allotment abandoned, sold it for profit. In the 1970s with the rise of the AIM movement, the government finally abandoned the policy of assimilation and tribal termination and it became popular for people to claim and misappropriate Native ancestry. Thus, tribal governments have strict rules on who is/can become a tribal member and there are federal laws to regulate that only tribal members can officially disseminate their own culture. Long and short of it is Herndon can't be a tribal expert unless she is a member of a tribe, but her academic research may make her an outside authority to other academics. SusunW (talk) 12:53, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Interesting. I think some of this background could usefully be added to the biography, possibly as a footnote.--Ipigott (talk) 15:43, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
 * , I've given it a go. Better? SusunW (talk) 14:33, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Well I would have thought it helped understanding of the biography but as you must have seen, others do not agree.--Ipigott (talk) 08:22, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * It's okay . Right now people are angry. I get it. It may be that when they are less so, the notes can be re-added. SusunW (talk) 14:20, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Ian, you are too kind. It's true that I have a special fondness for working with Susun, beautiful Song that she is, but I didn't really do much other than offer insight to Susun and try to bring others to the conversation that could offer further perspective. Susun should get all the recognition she deserves. There are others that worked on the article that deserve recognition too and every good faith edit is important. -- A Rose Wolf  14:20, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I deserve no more recognition than anyone else who has worked to make it an accurate article and clean it up. I appreciate your getting others involved, because we together are better than alone. SusunW (talk) 16:58, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

User script to detect unreliable sources
I have (with the help of others) made a small user script to detect and highlight various links to unreliable sources and predatory journals. Some of you may already be familiar with it, given it is currently the 39th most imported script on Wikipedia. The idea is that it takes something like and turns it into something like
 * John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14.
 * John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14.

It will work on a variety of links, including those from cite web, cite journal and doi.

The script is mostly based on WP:RSPSOURCES, WP:NPPSG and WP:CITEWATCH and a good dose of common sense. I'm always expanding coverage and tweaking the script's logic, so general feedback and suggestions to expand coverage to other unreliable sources are always welcomed.

Do note that this is not a script to be mindlessly used, and several caveats apply. Details and instructions are available at User:Headbomb/unreliable. Questions, comments and requests can be made at User talk:Headbomb/unreliable.

- &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b}

This is a one time notice and can't be unsubscribed from. Delivered by: MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:02, 29 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks! User:Headbomb/unreliable is great. For those interested in this kind of tool, I also recommend giving a try to User:Novem Linguae/Scripts/CiteHighlighter. MarioGom (talk) 00:46, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
 * If you decide to use Novem Linguae's script, I would advise against trusting its green ratings. The NYT, for example, might be generally reliable. But publishing an op ed in the NYT doesn't make that article reliable. Nor would it be OK to source medical information to it per WP:MEDRS. Likewise, many sources will have PMIDs/DOIs (green), but are actually published in predatory/quack journals, which should be flagged in red. &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 02:25, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I'll point out that this tool is not only great for those that write a lot of articles, but those that review Drafts and other user submissions. &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 17:08, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Featured picture scheduled for POTD
Hello! This is to let editors know that File:Joy Young Rogers outside the White House.jpg, a featured picture used in this article, has been selected as the English Wikipedia's picture of the day (POTD) for July 16, 2022. A preview of the POTD is displayed below and can be edited at Template:POTD/2022-07-16. For the greater benefit of readers, any potential improvements or maintenance that could benefit the quality of this article should be done before its scheduled appearance on the Main Page. If you have any concerns, please place a message at Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day. Thank you! Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.8% of all FPs 09:33, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Janicke Askevold
I've written a draft stub on her at Draft:Janicke Askevold. At this point I've written in as much relevant info as I could on my "first pass". Could some of you look over it to see if there's any more to add or change? //  Maddy  ♥︎(they/she)♥︎ :: talk  16:10, 24 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Hi, Thank you for your willingness to contribute in wikipedia. I have checked your draft and it looks good and moving in a right way but I suggest you to add more reliable sources or independent sources to the subject. It lacks category where I suggest to add. Thank you and have a nice weekend. Fade258 (talk) 16:51, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Formula shortage article: help! And also: wow!
I'm having an experience that's new to me, but probably familiar to folks in this WikiProject.

A few days ago, I noticed there was no article on the 2022 United States infant formula shortage. Surprised the hell out of me, so I created one. Without much time on my hands, I went to Village Pump for help. Someone pointed out that In the news would be appropriate to get more attention, so today I tried my luck there. You can see how well that went.

I've been an active editor for 16 years, and I've never personally seen this kind of insane reaction. I assume this is pure sexism, although I didn't think keeping infants alive was a "women's issue".

So I guess I'm looking for 1) help improving the state of the article and making it appropriately visible, and 2) commiseration, having shouted into the void and had it shout hatefully back. (I know I'm not a victim.) — swpb T&#8201;•&#8201;go beyond&#8201;•&#8201;bad idea 16:20, 16 May 2022 (UTC)


 * . As far as I can see the article is still up and running. Why do think it is so important to include in news?--Ipigott (talk) 18:14, 16 May 2022 (UTC)


 * It's in the headlines of every major US media outlet and several abroad, is being felt by tens of thousands of people, and concerns a product some people rely on to live? I didn't think I'd get that question here. — swpb T&#8201;•&#8201;go beyond&#8201;•&#8201;bad idea 18:59, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I think you are in error to assume it is pure sexism, though I have no doubt that sexism plays some role. However, commenters at ITN are predisposed to have a bias against US-centric items.  They sometimes go a bit too far in an effort to prevent "In the News" from becoming "In the U.S. News".  I think that is the bulk of what you are being hit with over there.  I'm honestly a little surprised the Buffalo shooting made it on. ~  ONUnicorn (Talk&#124;Contribs) problem solving 19:06, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

New developments

 * Biden's involvement by invoking the Defense Production Act is now the first item on BBC World News. See also here. It's now certainly reached international significance.--Ipigott (talk) 10:14, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I'm not seeing it on BBC World News, can you drop a link? — swpb T&#8201;•&#8201;go beyond&#8201;•&#8201;bad idea 14:44, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
 * It's a big story for The Guardian in the UK here. -- Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 14:57, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks. If either of you think the international coverage is now sufficient to justify another go at ITN, you'll have my full support; I'm too gun-shy to re-nominate it myself after my first experience. — swpb T&#8201;•&#8201;go beyond&#8201;•&#8201;bad idea 18:59, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I was referring to BBC World News radio, not TV. It was the first item at 5 am GMT today and was repeated in at least one more broadcast. I gave a link above to an equivalent item on their website--Ipigott (talk) 19:59, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Forget what I said – I'm trying again. — swpb T&#8201;•&#8201;go beyond&#8201;•&#8201;bad idea 17:50, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Gerlin Bean draft
My helpers at the tea house were right, there are not enough sources for Gerlin Bean to have her own biography page. So I have made a new section on the British Black Panthers main page called Women and the British Black Power Movement and have mentioned her there. She was not a woman in red but nevertheless deserves recognition according to fellow activists of the era. User: Balance Person Balance person (talk) 09:53, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
 * you are kidding, right? I have no idea who told you that, but it is very clear you got bad information. Ask here, not the tea house about women's notability. She has been called "The Mother of the [British Black Feminist and radical] Movement", instrumental in the founding of the Brixton Black Women's Group,, set up the Black Women's Action Committee of the Black Unity and Freedom Party, founder of OWAAD,, fundamental influence of black feminism,, community activist and dedicated black nationalist. She developed the Ahfiwe School in London to combat scholastic underachievement. When Zimbabwe gained independence in 1983, she went there to set up government programs for women and children., In Jamaica, she was the chair of the gender section of the Council for Voluntary Social Services and managed the 3D Projects on disability. She has written articles about disability, given lectures at the University of the West Indies, (where she apparently earned as master's degree), has given community seminars,,, founded a school for children with disabilities, served on the St. Catherine's Parish Council, and has served on Jamaica's delegation reporting to OHCHR on children's welfare issues She has been featured in articles, and presentations,, was one of the honorees of the 2014 exhibit "400 Years of African Women Resistance Leaders" and one of the women featured in a sculpture by Wijnand De Jonge and exhibited at the Guildhall Art Gallery in 2017. That took about 20 minutes to find. I have no doubt whatsoever a Good Article can be created, but it will likely need someone who also has access to British sources to help (Dangles carrot to, who recently worked on Olive Morris taking her to Featured Article status and who I know has access to Brixton archives). I'm more than happy to collaborate with you on it. SusunW (talk) 16:42, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Wow! This is wonderful . Thank you so much, SusunW! My text on the British Black Panthers main page was instantly deleted anyway by Deanna as apparently I got my paraphrasing very wrong. So I am just learning from that editor/administrator about that (their comments are posted on my talk page) and the text is anyway now gone. I would be absolutely delighted to collaborate with you and Mujinga on a page for Gerlin Bean. You would need to know though that I am a beginner here and only just finding my way as you will see from my user page. I don't even know how you collaborate on pages in Wikipedia. But if you had the patience, I would be very happy to chip in if and where I could. Balance person (talk) 17:43, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
 * you can just click on the link I made above and contribute as you like. We will need to coordinate when we each work on it so we don't trip on each other's fingers SusunW (talk) 17:58, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I'll put the "in use" template on when I am working and take it off when I am not. That way you'll know. You can do the same. SusunW (talk) 18:01, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Okay. But...er...sorry, how do I get to the draft page you are making? I cannot see any links in your message? Balance person (talk) 18:09, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Push the link that is the title of your post here, "Gerlin Bean draft". SusunW (talk) 19:09, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm out for the day if you want to work on it. SusunW (talk) 22:01, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the hint about the link!
 * I'm out too but have just had a look. You have included everything I had found out for my (now deleted) text. So, I have just smoothed the odd word of your text here or there. Please revert to your own original text if you do not like my few changes. I don't know if you have this reference on your list? Winston Trew, Black for a Cause… Not Just Because… The case of the ‘Oval 4’ and the story of Black Power in 1970s Britain, London, 2010. I found the Twitter scan too with the Bean interview but understand we can't use Twitter as a source but the Shrew reference can surely still stand? Balance person (talk) 09:37, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that reference. I'll add it to the list of things to work in. Yes, Shrew is valid because it is an edited journal, but social media platforms allow anyone and everyone to post and there is no one who curates the material. This is a little different because it is not a random posting on a social media site by someone who is giving their opinion on something, but rather the social media site is serving as a host of someone else's material. That said, I'd rather not tempt someone to delete the reference if we can find another host site. SusunW (talk) 14:32, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, I can understand that. I have looked but can't find one yet. And I just found these. You probably know them already?
 * Newer leads
 * https://www2.calmview.co.uk/BCA/CalmView/Overview.aspx?src=DServe.Catalog
 * https://www.lsbu.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/114685/african-caribbean-women-post-diaspora-contexts-working-paper.pdf
 * https://www.facebook.com/childrenfirstagency/photos/as-we-continue-tributethursdays-today-we-highlight-our-board-chairman-ms-gerlin-/887468901662995/
 * (I know we cant use FBook but it is just so nice to see GBs face!)
 * is.gov.jm/sexual-health-programme-for-persons-with-disabilities/
 * Balance person (talk) 17:20, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The link to the black cultural archives (I haven't yet looked at the others) is fantastic! It gives information on her time in Zimbabwe that I haven't been able to locate anywhere else. Thank you. We should probably move this conversation to the draft article talk page and continue it there which I will do in a minute. The FB page gives us a contact point, even if we can't use it as a reference, which might help us secure a photograph. SusunW (talk) 17:53, 22 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Comment. There are some academic journals that discuss her work. I have access to them through my university library. See below.4meter4 (talk) 17:48, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you! Please feel free to add info as well. I've only barely begun, but have written a lede summary from the earlier source search. SusunW (talk) 17:58, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Does anyone know how to get this twitter download of the 1971 Shrew interview in another format. 1) it's tiny, and 2) twitter as a host is no bueno. SusunW (talk) 17:58, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you! Please feel free to add info as well. I've only barely begun, but have written a lede summary from the earlier source search. SusunW (talk) 17:58, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Does anyone know how to get this twitter download of the 1971 Shrew interview in another format. 1) it's tiny, and 2) twitter as a host is no bueno. SusunW (talk) 17:58, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Does anyone know how to get this twitter download of the 1971 Shrew interview in another format. 1) it's tiny, and 2) twitter as a host is no bueno. SusunW (talk) 17:58, 21 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Wow looks like fine work being done and the discussion continues at User talk:SusunW/Gerlin Bean Mujinga (talk) 12:21, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

New idea for history task force that would include multiple history-related WikiProjects
Hi. I am the Lead Coordinator at WP:HIST. I would like to form a task force for "Best Practices in History", which would be a task force to include and to benefit multiple WikiProjects that relate to history topics specifically. any interest? I'd like to get this off the ground if possible. please let me know. thanks!!! --Sm8900 (talk) 00:34, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Rosemary Radford Ruether photo
The feminist theologian Rosemary Radford Ruether has died. Any chance there is an available photo of her somewhere? Thriley (talk) 04:54, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Hazel Henderson has died
Hazel Henderson, a British American environmentalist and futurist, has died. Thriley (talk) 13:26, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Featured picture scheduled for POTD
Hello! This is to let editors know that File:Flora MacDonald Denison - Records of the National Woman's Party.jpg, a featured picture used in this article, has been selected as the English Wikipedia's picture of the day (POTD) for July 7, 2022. A preview of the POTD is displayed below and can be edited at Template:POTD/2022-07-07. For the greater benefit of readers, any potential improvements or maintenance that could benefit the quality of this article should be done before its scheduled appearance on the Main Page. If you have any concerns, please place a message at Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day. Thank you! Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.8% of all FPs 19:57, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

-Can't hurt to put these here, right? Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.8% of all FPs 19:57, 23 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Beautiful photograph! Nice work as always. Cielquiparle (talk) 15:44, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Abortion in the United States
Hi everyone, this article is undergoing some changes, some of which relate to a recent attempt by Oklahoma to ban most abortions. I am concerned about what has happened to the first image in the article, as well as the related text in the article about the new law, but it is more than I am capable of addressing at this time. Additional review and perspective would be appreciated. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 00:10, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Serbian women
Just cross-posting this suggestion to work on further Serbian women, that was left on my talk page Lajmmoore (talk) 15:22, 27 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks for bringing this on our attention. I noticed that there is an existing article on Serbian Wikipedia regarding this name. I also found significant coverage on different news channel i.e BBC or some else but that is on Serbian language which is a problem for me. If any user who know Serbian language than I didn't object on creation of this article. Fade258 (talk) 16:05, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Featured picture scheduled for POTD
Hello! This is to let editors know that File:Ada S. Flatman, c. 1917.jpg, a featured picture used in this article, has been selected as the English Wikipedia's picture of the day (POTD) for July 31, 2022. A preview of the POTD is displayed below and can be edited at Template:POTD/2022-07-31. For the greater benefit of readers, any potential improvements or maintenance that could benefit the quality of this article should be done before its scheduled appearance on the Main Page. If you have any concerns, please place a message at Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day. Thank you! Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.8% of all FPs 18:26, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Looking or sources: Dr. Juanita Harris
I was looking for sources Dr. Juanita M. Harris, a government executive and former electronics engineer. I have found the following: 2018 interview, 2017 Army, 2015 Army, 2018 Army. While those are reliable, I was looking for independent sourcing. The only seemingly independent source I found was: AL 2015. TJMSmith (talk) 23:26, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Here's some I found from a quick search. None of your Army.mil links work for me, by the way.
 * Army announces new AMRDEC director - WAFF (TV)
 * 8 questions for AMRDEC’s Dr. Juanita Harris - The Redstone Rocket
 * Top Black Senior Executive Members - US Black Engineer and Information Technology
 * US Army AMRDEC's Harris on Future Vertical Lift, Long-Range Precision Fires, Cross-Functional Teams - Defense & Aerospace Report
 * Hope some of that helps. Silver  seren C 23:59, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
 * This is exactly what I was searching for. I will start up a draft tonight. Thank you Silverseren! TJMSmith (talk) 00:45, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Started Juanita Christensen. Thanks again. TJMSmith (talk) 03:08, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

AfD for Hammersmith Ladies Swimming Club aka West London Penguin
Here is an AfD discussion for West London Penguin Swimming and Water Polo Club (incorporating the historic Hammersmith Ladies Swimming Club) which may be of interest to members of this WikiProject:

Articles for deletion/West London Penguin Swimming and Water Polo Club

Cielquiparle (talk) 15:48, 26 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Has been closed as keep. --Tagishsimon (talk) 21:30, 26 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks for updating. I have submitted several Redirects in conjunction with this page (including both "Hammersmith Ladies Swimming Club" and "Hammersmith Ladies' Swimming Club". If there are any Admins or Redirect reviewers who happen to see this, would you be able to review those as well?


 * (No particular urgency as far as I know, but I was surprised to hear the comment the other day that there is a backlog of Redirects for review that is hard to sift through.) Cielquiparle (talk) 07:28, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Woman writer needs TLC / rescue: Terra Trevor
Notable Native American woman writer Terra Trevor's page has struggled over time because it originated as an unsourced BLP but with inaccuracies, and after some confused editing and complaints (including a failed A7 deletion request), is now nearly blank and up for AfD. However, she obviously is notable. I think this is a quick rescue job especially for anyone who knows writer bios, if someone could take this on. Cielquiparle (talk) 07:38, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I am not convinced that this is a rescuable topic. I searched my university library and there were no reviews of her publications in any journals or newspapers that I could find. Also, no sources about her either. The only thing I could locate were a few publications citing her work; but they were not about her or her work directly. I did find some blogs discussing her work, but as blogs they don’t meet the sourcing requirements to prove GNG. Likewise google books yielded nothing. I am leaning delete on this one unless someone else has better luck locating sources.4meter4 (talk) 08:21, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I see thanks. Maybe part of the problem is that some of those blogs and online articles contain inaccurate information, and that is why the history of this page is so frustrated and confused, through multiple iterations. Cielquiparle (talk) 09:04, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Inspiring new article in Nature
Thanks to Jess Wade and representatives of 500 Women Scientists and WikiEdu, Nature has published an inspiring article on how universities can improve women's coverage on Wikipedia. "How academic institutions can help to close Wikipedia’s gender gap" was published on 23 May.--Ipigott (talk) 13:41, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I personally appreciate it. But there are lots of women's article is listed on AFD which makes me sad. I think we should look after this problem on how it arises. Thank you. Fade258 (talk) 14:02, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
 * : This is specifically one of the points addressed in the article. The reason we frequently have to deal with AfDs is that article reviewers do not look carefully enough at the pertinent background, relying instead on what immediately turns up on the American version of Google. As far as I can see, if this continues as it has done for years, the only solution is to participate in discussions at AfD. Unfortunately, despite our efforts, these often lead to deletion, even for the world's most innovative women scientists. Let's hope the involvement of universities will improve the situation.--Ipigott (talk) 14:15, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
 * To be fair, there are lots of male academic bios up for deletion all the time too. I think it might be a drive towards forcing higher standards for all academics, rather than deletionism targeting women academics or the WiR drive. The standards in terms of citation profile appears to have changed; a few years back editors were looking for one paper over 100 citations (in Google Scholar) except perhaps in high-citation fields but I've seen academics at AfD where creators were being essentially accused of COI for creating articles on academics with higher than that level of citations. I despair sometimes. It's particularly acute for African academics, eg see (male) Articles for deletion/Omotunde E. G. Johnson. It would help if more inclusion-leaning editors participated in AfD discussions, though it can be painful.
 * I've certainly decided not to create any more academics of any gender without something that approaches GNG available (which often means obituaries). It's just not worth the heartache. Espresso Addict (talk) 00:17, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Academia is really a weird one. Unlike politics or music, in which you can slam onto the scene in a matter of months, or even weeks, in academia it usually takes decades and some people aren't really seen as important until after their death (as you suggest). In my experience it's way easier to write an article on an academic if they've had a career outside the university that gives them obvious GNG e.g. Sophie Kanza. Academic BLPs tend to be some of the weakest areas on Wikipedia, due to the general lack of secondary information about these persons' lives, the difficulty of trying to translate "importance" to notability, and COI editing by either the subjects themselves or their students. Wade's got a good idea, but at the moment attempting to counter systemic bias through articles on living academics who are nowhere near the end of their careers is like trying to carry a boulder up a mountain coated in axel grease and banana peels. -Indy beetle (talk) 20:18, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Also humanities easier than sciences, as publishes by books/monographs, which tend to get reviews from which (1) it is possible to say something about the subject's work without expert knowledge; and (2) notability under WP:AUTHOR can be shown, which (imo) can be waaaay easier than meeting WP:PROF. Espresso Addict (talk) 21:08, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Some fields, often humanities are also way more employable in more high profile areas. Even if Johnson isn't quite doing as well for SIGCOV, economists tend to be picked up by governments for leadership roles like Sylvie Kinigi (you can tell from her bio that while economics is clearly her preferred area, her brief time in politics is what made her notable). Some sociological and management experts get picked up by corporations, and clever historians get snazzy book deals and TV commentator slots. Political scientists sometime get the TV slot or become campaign consultants, like Walter DeVries. STEM people get inward-facing R&D jobs that don't translate well to fame unless they get a prestigious award, become a science communicator, or blaze their own difficult path to set up their own engineering firm or something. -Indy beetle (talk) 21:54, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Interesting news from Australia too
An article dated 27 May in The Canberra Times titled "Search for gaps in Wiki Australian history" outlines a new research project headed by Heather Ford of the University of Technology Sydney aimed at overcoming bias in regard to women, minorities and the Indigenous. (Looks as if Ford's biography needs updating.)--Ipigott (talk) 09:28, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

More details from University of Technology Sydney under "What’s missing from Wikipedia’s history of Australia?.--Ipigott (talk) 09:35, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

See also this interview with Heather Ford.--Ipigott (talk) 10:12, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Help with publishing a draft for Booker winner Daisy Rockwell
Hi, I wanted to write a bio for the International Booker winning translator Daisy Rockwell, but I noticed there's already a nice Draft:Daisy_Rockwell prepared by. However, it was declined twice before the Booker win for lack of notability/significant coverage. The win should clear any doubts of notability, but I'm not sure what is the procedure in such cases. Could someone well versed in draft verification process help move this into the main? GiantBroccoli (talk) 15:09, 28 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Tagging @Joofjoof who has expanded the article on Geetanjali Shree (the author of the winning translated book) and nominated the topic for In the news section. GiantBroccoli (talk) 15:24, 28 May 2022 (UTC)


 * I put the draft into article space. Clearly notable now with the Booker win. Thriley (talk) 06:39, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you! GiantBroccoli (talk) 07:34, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Rosemary Ann Robbins Dobbins
Hi folks, I'm looking for help to find sources for the NASA artist Rosemary Dobbins at the newspapers.com site. Any help is appreciated. Thanks.  scope_creep Talk  13:55, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Measuring gender diversity at the article level
I've published a new article in the Signpost about Measuring gender diversity in Wikipedia articles. Your feedbacks are welcome. PAC2 (talk) 06:57, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

June events from Women in Red
--Megalibrarygirl (talk) 09:19, 31 May 2022 (UTC) via MassMessaging

Preparing for Music in June
Posting the following as there have been no responses on our Ideas page:12:50, 27 May 2022 (UTC)Ipigott (talk)


 * Currently, we don't have redlists for these music occupations: musicologist d:Q14915627; music theorist d:Q16031530; music therapist d:Q10334002; cantor d:Q30906402; brass player d:Q25829748; instrumentalist d:Q1278335. I don't know if there's anyone here who has time/inclination to create redlists, or maybe we should ask on the WiR mainpage? --Rosiestep (talk) 14:04, 18 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Is there a guide somewhere on how to create those? //  Maddy  ♥︎(they/she)♥︎ :: talk  13:14, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
 * found it //  Maddy  ♥︎(they/she)♥︎ :: talk  14:14, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
 * ✅ except for cantors and brass players, as there were none in wikidata. Someone more experienced with these things might still want to look over them, I kind of knocked these out; for example I think there's a problem with the sitelinks stats. //  Maddy  ♥︎(they/she)♥︎ :: talk  15:13, 27 May 2022 (UTC)


 * I'm happy to start building crowdsourced lists from NYT obituaries (that's my usual starting point). Just say where. Meanwhile, here are three redlink brass players from a list I made a couple years ago for a different event. Penny Richards (talk)


 * Susan Slaughter (BLP in 2019)
 * Gail Robertson (BLP in 2019)
 * Betty Glover (born 1923)

Brass players
& all, I remembered that I participated in this editathon a while ago run by &. I wonder if there are names that can come from the Available list? I probably won't have time to search though. Lajmmoore (talk) 15:29, 27 May 2022 (UTC)


 * I've created a new CS list with the articles listed here and the missing ones from the editathon. Additions are of course appreciated. //  Maddy  ♥︎(they/she)♥︎ :: talk  20:28, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
 * @Maddy from Celeste thank you! Lajmmoore (talk) 13:53, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Molly White
Project members are invited to help improve the newly-created Molly White (writer) entry, thanks! --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 18:41, 30 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Sure. If it needs any improvement. Fade258 (talk) 16:36, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

11K TW followers
Just noticed that Women in Red now has 11,000 Twitter followers! --Rosiestep (talk) 16:19, 31 May 2022 (UTC)


 * --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 16:24, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
 * and congratulations to all. --Fade258 (talk) 16:35, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Wonderful Owlf   📪  13:14, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Naming conventions for Tonga
Hello all, I just started a biography for Titilupe Fanetupouvava'u Tuita-Tupou Tu'ivakano, who is Tongan High Commissioner to the UK. However, does anyone know about Tongan naming? Some sources refer to her as 'Tuita' others as 'Tu'ivakano' and I just wondered if anyone knew, or knew where I could ask (beyond WP Tonga) - thank you! Lajmmoore (talk) 13:51, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Lajmmoore you could try contacting the Tongan High Commission, there are details at https://www.rbkc.gov.uk/contactsdirectory/az.aspx?orgid=5405. 16:20, 1 June 2022 (UTC)TSventon (talk)

Tennis players
Hi folks, Wikimedia UK are planning some online editing events with CARE International to work on the gender gap. has been involved. We're looking for some eye-catching stats for one of the themes we were considering: tennis, specifically Wimbledon.

Stuff that already stands out like:
 * Only 19.26% of the biographies on the English Wikipedia are about women.
 * There are more articles on football and footballers than there are of women.

Would anyone have any suggestions relating to tennis and Wimbledon, or even sport more generally? Richard Nevell (WMUK) (talk) 15:52, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I thought the 2nd one was nearly, but not actually, true? If you are fiddling it by incuding football clubs, leagues, matches etc for football but not for "women", well... I also would have expected tennis to be a relatively well-balanced sport on WP, but what do I know. Johnbod (talk) 16:14, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
 * 5.9k male, 4.3k women biogs, WD says. https://w.wiki/5E7G --Tagishsimon (talk) 18:11, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
 * As ever, that presumes that every en-Wiki article about a tennis player, has occupation = tennis player as part of their Wikidata item.--Oronsay (talk) 03:32, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * More precisely, I was involved, not been active/involved since February. Victuallers (talk) 16:58, 1 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks for sharing your plans with us. While it is interesting to see that you intend to focus on tennis in Wimbledon, I should point out that this is an area where women have been systematically covered over the years. I'm pretty sure that with or without your help, this will continue to be the case in 2022. If you are seriously interested in improving the coverage of women in sports, especially those from the UK, I would point you to WikiProject Women's sport/Open tasks which includes a wide range of redlink lists. Women in Red focused on sports in February and March and also provided redlists. Experts such as may be able to point to areas in which women in sport in the UK need more attention.--Ipigott (talk) 09:58, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Review some articles?
Hi! I have a bit of a favor to ask. Long story short, Wiki Ed did a class where some/most of the articles were either deleted or sent to the draftspace. I just started looking through them to try and improve them, but I won't be able to move anything live because I used to work for them and I could be seen as having a bit of a bias. I didn't know if any of you would be willing to look over some of the articles to see if they would pass NPROF/GNG or not.

So far I've only reviewed Draft:Lea Starita, who looks like she could qualify for NPROF. Her h-index is 27, but I'm not sure if that's high enough - I know that not everyone uses that as a sign of notability. I'll try and update this as I find more, but so far that's the main one I want someone to take a look at. ReaderofthePack (formerly Tokyogirl79)  (｡◕‿◕｡)  12:30, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * There's a live article at Amanda Bradford that could be reviewed. All of these look to be STEM related. Also, I'm aware that these need some editing for tone and minutiae, but I'm predominantly interested in looking at notability TBH. ReaderofthePack (formerly Tokyogirl79)  (｡◕‿◕｡)  12:34, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

This - https://dashboard.wikiedu.org/courses/University_of_Washington/Uncommon_Leaders_-_Women_and_BIPOC_in_Science_(Spring_of_2022)/articles/edited?newness=new - may be a useful link (but not sure it lists all articles) - the dashboard for new articles, amongst which:
 * Draft:Ahna Skop
 * Draft:Autumn Asher BlackDeer
 * Draft:Kimberly Tanner.
 * Myron Evans II has been AfDd.
 * Heather Judkins - speedied, if anyone would like to look into that
 * Kimberly Tannere and Kimberly Tanner Highlight both speedied; not sure that the story here is. --Tagishsimon (talk) 13:00, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks ! Looking over Skop, it looks like she should be notable, the main issue with the draft is the tone. The class is technically over, so I suppose that I could start editing it for tone. I'll just make sure to leave a note on the student's talk page in case they return. ReaderofthePack (formerly Tokyogirl79)  (｡◕‿◕｡)  17:06, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Admittedly my NPROF skills have withered a little since my time with Wiki Ed, but NPOV I can still do! ReaderofthePack (formerly Tokyogirl79)  (｡◕‿◕｡)  17:07, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Tanner meets criteria #8 of WP:PROF as editor in chief of a journal. As that information was missing from the article I added it (with citation) and made a note for the AfC reviewer(s). DaffodilOcean (talk) 15:18, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I think it's WP:TOOSOON for BlackDeer, Evans, and Judkins. I agree with that Skop is notable. DaffodilOcean (talk) 15:23, 3 June 2022 (UTC)


 * I've cleaned up Skop quite a bit, can someone review it and see if it's ready to move live? I am aware that it could use more sourcing, especially non-primary sourcing. ReaderofthePack (formerly Tokyogirl79)  (｡◕‿◕｡) 
 * Got to go offline, but checked Heather Judkins GS: not really an A7 imo (claims expert in cephalopods) but as an assistant professor with only one decently cited paper, an AfD would almost certainly result in delete as too early in career. Espresso Addict (talk) 02:15, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Really got to go offline, but took v quick look at Skop, and not ready yet. GS profile is promising (though standards at AfD for medics have skyrocketed of late) but needs drastic hacking imo. Espresso Addict (talk) 02:20, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I'll do some more pruning then! ReaderofthePack (formerly Tokyogirl79)  (｡◕‿◕｡)  11:32, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Tanner looks notable under PROF according to GS profile, though I'm not convinced that CBE: Life Sciences Education is sufficiently major that being co-editor would meet PROF on its own. The draft badly needs hacking down. Espresso Addict (talk) 04:57, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Lea Starita looks a touch early career to me; though the GS profile looks healthy there are a lot of highly coauthored papers in the mix. Hard to tell where AfD would go; it's been fiercely deletionist of late and editors are wary of the Covid effect boosting citation counts. Espresso Addict (talk) 05:07, 4 June 2022 (UTC)