Wikipedia talk:WikiProject World Rally/Archive 4

Piped links
Try avoiding, they'll get changed like this. Pelmeen10 (talk) 02:03, 10 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Honestly, some of those&mdash;like "Anders Jæger-Synnevaag" instead of "Anders Jæger-Synnevaag"&mdash;are completely unjustified. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 12:56, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

RfC which impacts this WikiProject's articles
An RfC has started at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Motorsport which has wide implications for this WikiProject. Interested editors are welcome to contribute to the discssion. SSSB (talk) 14:40, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Request for information on WP1.0 web tool
Hello and greetings from the maintainers of the WP 1.0 Bot! As you may or may not know, we are currently involved in an overhaul of the bot, in order to make it more modern and maintainable. As part of this process, we will be rewriting the web tool that is part of the project. You might have noticed this tool if you click through the links on the project assessment summary tables.

We'd like to collect information on how the current tool is used by....you! How do you yourself and the other maintainers of your project use the web tool? Which of its features do you need? How frequently do you use these features? And what features is the tool missing that would be useful to you? We have collected all of these questions at this Google form where you can leave your response. Walkerma (talk) 04:25, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Ott Tanak's championship win
Should we have Ott Tänak's championship win placed on the In The News section of the front page? Given how notable it was in that it was the first for a non-Frenchman to have won the championship since 2003, I think that deserves a mention. Blake Gripling (talk) 00:51, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
 * , nominate and see what happens. In my opinion winning a World Championship is enough. SSSB (talk) 07:18, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Agree. Unnamelessness (talk) 08:59, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Think I'd let you guys do the honours for now though. Blake Gripling (talk) 10:13, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
 * @ ✅. But we might need to fix the page issue of Ott Tänak. I think it's up to you to improve the verifiability. You know, I am busy updating the page 2019 Rally Catalunya in a few days. Unnamelessness (talk) 14:43, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Why was I listed as the creator and updater? I'll better start finding sources to the champion article(s) though... Pelmeen10 (talk) 19:26, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry, my mistake. Unnamelessness (talk) 02:00, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

it might also be worth going to Did you know? and submitting something there, such as:
 * ''Did you know that when Estonian driver Ott Tänak won the 2019 World Rally Championship, he became the first non-French driver to win in fifteen years?

Or something along those lines (the "non-French driver" bit could be rephrased). I'd do it myself, but it's late and I'm not sure how to nominate it. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 11:48, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Non of the relevant pages are eligible under DYN criteria. SSSB (talk) 12:05, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, I am afraid the only way to nominate Ott Tänak is to promote the page to GA, but by the time we've done that, the information is out-dated. Unnamelessness (talk) 12:15, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Regarding the "non-French driver" bit, it has been used on Pope John Paul II with no apparent issues, as the lead section of the latter described him as "Born in Poland, John Paul II was the first non-Italian pope since the Dutch Pope Adrian VI..." Blake Gripling (talk) 12:25, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

GA for 2019 World Rally Championship?
@,, , , , and , In the news was updated with an item that involved the article 2019 World Rally Championship after a chock of updates with references for verification. So, I think it is a great opportunity to promote the page to GA level by some extra efforts. WP:WRC do need GA articles. Of course, it needs GA Nomination and Review, first. What are your thoughts? Unnamelessness (talk) 10:15, 29 October 2019 (UTC)


 * it needs to be finished first. GA and FA reviewers won't touch it until after Rally Australia. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 10:49, 29 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I agree, we need to let the season play out before we can call it GA, or even FA. Johannes275 (talk) 17:49, 29 October 2019 (UTC)


 * to be honest, I'd prefer to concentrate on getting the 2020 article to GA/FA status. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 08:45, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
 * That would wait for at least a year by your previous suggestion. But if you have faith with it, I am fine. Unnamelessness (talk) 08:51, 30 October 2019 (UTC)


 * I pretty much planned for Volkswagen Polo R WRC to be GA from the moment it was created.


 * I just think it's easier to plan ahead than to do it right at the end. If the 2019 article is to be GA, then it has a few big issues&mdash;complex tables, a lack of images and a season report that goes round-by-round when it should encompass the whole year. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 10:47, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

World Rally Championship also needs update. Pelmeen10 (talk) 19:29, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

Splitting Production World Rally Championship from World Rally Championship-3
Might be a good idea, but Scott DNA's edit got reverted due to lack of sources. Ideas? Pelmeen10 (talk) 15:58, 30 November 2019 (UTC)


 * yes, they should be split. If memory serves, the PWRC was for Group N cars. Group N was phased out with the introduction of Group R. The WRC-3 replaced the PWRC so beyond being a successor/replacement, the WRC-3 has no relationship with the PWRC. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 23:25, 30 November 2019 (UTC)


 * I just noticed this and came here to raise it. Of course having an article without sources is a problem, but now with the various renamings and such we have that Production World Rally Championship redirects to World Rally Championship-3 which isn't the same WRC-3 which replaced it, as this is now at World Rally Championship-3 (2013–2018), but this doesn't even discuss the production WRC anymore due to the edit in November by  which was presumably made to split the two. I'm not going to express an opinion on whether or not they should be separate or a single aricle as they were previously, but having the redirect to an article which doesn't discuss the PWRC is silly, and so if the old content is to remain deleted, then so should be the redirects. A7V2 (talk) 00:35, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

Production World Rally Championship
I have un-redirected this article and added some (but probably not enough) sources. I will redirect change relevant redirects too. If others disagree with this, please don't restore a redirect to an article which doesn't discuss the PWRC. Instead it would be best to propose deletion. Thanks. A7V2 (talk) 07:18, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

Arbitration/Requests/Case/Motorsports opened
The Arbitration Committee has accepted arequest for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Arbitration/Requests/Case/Motorsports regarding two users contributing to this project. If anyone wishes to add evidence for arbitrators to consider, you can add it to the evidence subpage, at Arbitration/Requests/Case/Motorsports/Evidence. Please add your evidence by March 13, 2020, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Arbitration/Requests/Case/Motorsports/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Arbitration/Guide to arbitration.Tvx1 23:08, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Rally Trans Itapua
Can anyone please take a look on the article? The article body (except the winner list) isn't in English, but there's no Spanish Wikipedia entry. FMecha (to talk|to see log) 18:11, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Rally Pyramid
I've started a page to explain the Rally Pyramid and new Rally1 to Rally5 cars if you would like to take a look, expand on, publish and approve. Draft:Rally Pyramid — Preceding unsigned comment added by PushingPace (talk • contribs) 01:18, 7 December 2020 (UTC)


 * @ - it's a good start, but it needs work. The main issue is accessibility; in its current form, it's good for an audience who are already familiar with the sport, but harder for a layperson to read. A lot of it is also speculative. 1.129.107.5 (talk) 07:42, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Notification of move discussion
There is an ongoing discussion regarding whether Citroën C3 R5 and Škoda Fabia R5 should be moved to Citroën C3 Rally2 and Škoda Fabia Rally2 respectively. I invite interested editors to participate at Talk:Hyundai i20 R5. Thanks. A7V2 (talk) 08:01, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Reliability of juwra profiles?
Hey, how reliable is juwra profiles as a source? I understand it's used as a source for race statistics, but I was looking at whether their driver profiles such as Colin McRae are considered reliable. There's some grammatical errors on the profile which suggests the writer is ESL and from what I can tell the site is run by one person whose experience with reporting is running fansites. I've used the McRae profile as a source on Colin McRae for now, but can always switch to using his biographies for early life information instead CiphriusKane (talk) 10:29, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

User script to detect unreliable sources
I have (with the help of others) made a small user script to detect and highlight various links to unreliable sources and predatory journals. Some of you may already be familiar with it, given it is currently the 39th most imported script on Wikipedia. The idea is that it takes something like and turns it into something like
 * John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14.
 * John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14.

It will work on a variety of links, including those from cite web, cite journal and doi.

The script is mostly based on WP:RSPSOURCES, WP:NPPSG and WP:CITEWATCH and a good dose of common sense. I'm always expanding coverage and tweaking the script's logic, so general feedback and suggestions to expand coverage to other unreliable sources are always welcomed.

Do note that this is not a script to be mindlessly used, and several caveats apply. Details and instructions are available at User:Headbomb/unreliable. Questions, comments and requests can be made at User talk:Headbomb/unreliable.

- &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b}

This is a one time notice and can't be unsubscribed from. Delivered by: MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:02, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Categories of rallies


The article Categories of rallies has been proposed for deletion&#32;because of the following concern: "This article is incomplete, unreferenced, has UK bias, and does not include anything that is not already, or able to be, covered in Rallying, which it is also where it is more useful."

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Rally Wonk (talk) 22:03, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Gimmick Rallye
Hi, I've recently been introduced to the sport of "gimmick rallye[sic]", but it doesn't have a Wikipedia article and only has a passing mention on Rallying and on Categories of rallies, both of which are under this WikiProject. I'm unfortunately new to the sport and have never participated, but this seems like an article that maybe someone else here will be more capable of starting? Edderiofer (talk) 23:00, 13 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Hi @Edderiofer, I'm not sure there's expertise or experience here to be able to create its own article without that article being a tribute to the links used to create it. I've updated Rally Types in Rallying recently with a good source if you need a link, though I bet you have seen it. Rally Wonk (talk) 21:52, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I suppose my best bet would be to try to convince some of my friends who are more into gimmick rallye than I am to start the Wikipedia article for it, then. Edderiofer (talk) 22:25, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Leg (rallying)


The article Leg (rallying) has been proposed for deletion&#32;because of the following concern: "Added to Glossary of motorsport terms, article not necessary"

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Rally Wonk (talk) 13:29, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

202.8.218.167
This IP is making incorrect edits to entry lists. I only managed to get a temporary block on current ERC season article. They have moved on to historic WRC articles now and a lot of hard work is being undone and misinformation is being added. I give up now so if anybody has the knowledge or will to block them please do.--Rally Wonk (talk) 00:05, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Due time


The article Due time has been proposed for deletion&#32;because of the following concern: "Definition added to Glossary of motorsport terms, article not necessary."

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Rally Wonk (talk) 13:16, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Being 2 minutes late to time control = 20 seconds penalty, not 2 min. But 2 minutes early = 2 minutes penalty. Pelmeen10 (talk) 20:44, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Depends on the organisation and rules, it could be true of a timekeeping road rally. No sources are given so probably giving nod to deletion. Rally Wonk (talk) 21:05, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The prod was removed, maybe try Afd? Pelmeen10 (talk) 09:39, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
 * It (and Leg) was considered worthy of saving by someone, I'll respect that. Strange considering no other article links to it. Rally Wonk (talk) 00:07, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Well, you can still simply just redirect the pages (to rallying?). Pelmeen10 (talk) 09:59, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Double WRC3 participation (Open and Junior)
How would be the best way to list them at drivers articles? Sami Pajari currently has only one of them in his article. Pelmeen10 (talk) 20:51, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Monza Rally Show
Should the article be called "Monza Rally" or "Rally Monza" instead? Pelmeen10 (talk) 14:29, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:World Rally Championship-2
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:World Rally Championship-2 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. – robertsky (talk) 03:31, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

SWRC, PWRC, WRC2, WRC3... articles
I'm not sure why I raise this topic given I'm having trouble convincing Wikipedia there is no such thing as World Rally Championship-2 etc, but invite a conversation anyway.

I'm not sure the logic of why there are two WRC3 articles either a) matters to the average reader, as all WRC3s are commonly called WRC3 and could quite happily sit on the same article with appropriate explanation within; and b) holds, as there's now no real continuation between the 2019 WRC 2 for R5/Rally2 which became 2020-2021 WRC3; and 2022-on WRC3 for Rally3. If a favourite source of the wikiproject, eWRC-Results.com suggests these are different and that Lauri Joona and Jari Huttunen are not equal champions of the same series, according to that conversation logic than there should now be three WRC3 articles. That was even predicted by @Mclarenfan17. Another favourite source, juwra.com, puts the 'three WRC3s' as equals. WRC.com has nothing to say.

And there is a disconnect among the championships.

SWRC redirects to WRC2 even though the sources given (and the article) say WRC2 replaced SWRC, which doesn't suggest they're the same thing. And both juwra and eWRC-Results treat them separately. That's grounds for separate articles IMO - and as said elsewhere, one is a world championship, the other is not and was introduced by a then new promoter in a shake up of all the series'. Then, in 2013 already after PWRC had partially split to SWRC, so the sources say, it was similarly replaced by WRC3. But PWRC and WRC3.1 maintain separate articles.

I would propose merging the WRC3 articles (into WRC3 Championship!) and splitting Super 2000 World Rally Championship (title in full) from WRC2. But as said, I'm having trouble making sense of the obstructive logic of some contributors (who won't provide sources for claims like "everybody knows it as...").

I would like to hear the thoughts of others. Rally Wonk (talk) 15:44, 22 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Why does it have to be "WRC2 Championship" and "WRC3 Championship"? Where is the word "Championship" coming from? It can be used in the regulations, but not elsewhere. I'm in favour of the common use too. Pelmeen10 (talk) 09:40, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

My thoughts about the contents of the articles:
 * Actually there's a point that WRC2-Pro was a new creation and it later became the regular WRC-2. I'm thinking there's news sources to support this. Promoter wanted the second highest championship to also go to teams rather than being for private entries. But IMO the WRC3 that existed in 2020 and 2021 were somewhat similar to WRC2 in those years. We could have one article for all that.
 * 2021 World Rally Championship-3 and 2022 World Rally Championship-3 are not the same championships. Why the hell do we have Rally2 and Rally3 cars included in the same championship article @World Rally Championship-3. It's clear that Lauri Joona did not win similar catgory or championship to the ones Rossel & Huttunen won. In this matter, we should probably follow our most used source - ewrc (continuation based on regulations and car types), not juwra (continuation based on name), site is mostly run by 1 fan anyway. It would even make more sense to add Joona and the 2022 to the continuation of the same championship that ran from 2013-2018 (italian wiki would agree).
 * We now claim 2020 WRC3 was 8th, 2022 WRC3 was 9th and 2023 WRC3 is 10th season. This should be fixed too.

So what I suggest is merging the content from World Rally Championship-3 to World Rally Championship-2 and World Rally Championship-3 (2013–2018). Then move "World Rally Championship-3 (2013–2018)" back to "World Rally Championship-3".

May I also suggest splitting 2022 World Rally Championship-3 similar to italian wiki to distinguish the Junior championship. Just like we splitted 2019 WRC2 Pro. There were different rules. The current article is really confusing. Remember the similarity to 2018 WRC3 and 2018 JWRC? My suggestion in a navbox:

Pelmeen10 (talk) 09:40, 23 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Fair points, I'm glad you replied. Perhaps we differ because I think the parent articles (WRC2, WRC3 etc) should explain what each is, with history and 'changelog', because IMO that's where most readers go first and would expect to see. Maybe you see these not as 'parents', but as grouping together the higher-level season articles into what I call continuations (?).
 * From my point of view, all this continuation stuff is only really relevant to the rolls-of-honour/records/statistics sections of each parent article. It's too niche justification for titling purposes, and it's only useful for comparing 2013 to 2022, say, and eWRC is the single source for much of it. Meanwhile there are thousands of sources to justify simply WRC2, WRC3... This continuation logic and eWRC doesn't justify either the titles or content of the parent articles being, for example: WRC3, but not the Rally2 years of 2020—2021, or even WRC2 until 2018 not including WRC2 Pro (2019) or WRC2 (2020—2021) but WRC3 instead (then adding 'defunct 2022'). Yikes.
 * Re: 2021 and 2022 WRC3, yes they are the same championships!* Joona, Rossel, Huttunen and the 2013—2018 winners all have the same words on their trophies and we can use many many news reports as sources. That is wp:crystal clear! There's nothing to fix about the 8th/9th/10th running of WRC3, it's undeniable. (*ignoring 2021 as WRC3 Open and Junior). The reason for WRC2 being renamed WRC3 but still Rally2 in 2020 was the FIA responding to people finding it too confusing, that's worth mentioning in the articles, not justification for arranging them.
 * And also just my opinion because it's an independent source; I disagree with how eWRC have arranged their continuations, Lindholm's WRC2 2022 has the same quality as Kubica's WRC2 in 2013, the common history to 2018 seems arbitrarily attached to one fork of the 2019 split. They've also not added Joona WRC3 2022 anywhere, but looks like they want to put him with the 2013-2018 winners, which makes no justifiable sense. At least they have added "2013-2019 WRC2, from 2020 WRC3" and "WRC2 Pro in 2019 -> WRC2 from 2020" for some sort of clarity, but this is still the only place to see these rolls-of-honour.
 * It's another oddity that 2019 WRC2 Pro and 2019 WRC2 get their own articles when WRC2 Pro is redirected to WRC2, but here we are. Hopefully more people will reply.
 * Rally Wonk (talk) 20:03, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
 * When we only talk about names, when was the seventh season of "WRC3"? Meanwhile the 2018 World Rally Championship-3 was the "sixth and final season". Continuation of a championship can't happen when there are completly different cars (so regulations too) and drivers. Pelmeen10 (talk) 04:35, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, 2020 was the 7th. I thought you were making a different point on separation of WRC3s. Needs fixing if we do alter things. Rally Wonk (talk) 18:02, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

@, @,

Regluations change every season. We run into this situation because of the rules change in recent years. Who knows if the FIA is going to stop Rally3 cars in WRC-3 and switch back to Rally2 cars, or to Rally4/5 or Rallywhateveritis cars in 2024/2025/2026 or what-so-ever year in the future? Whatever how the rule changes, the title or the series seems pretty consistent, i.e. World Rally Championship-X (or WRCX or WRCX Championship as under discussion). IFF we really have to merge, my suggestion is just merging World Rally Championship-3 (2013–2018) back to World Rally Championship-3, so that we could keep it all together in line with the name of the series. This approach can do a easy fix by a page move when a series is renamed as we've done to the SWRC (or perhaps someday the FIA is gonna rename JWRC to WRC4).

Given the complexity in terms of the history of every support category, I also propose to split the current World Rally Championship navbox template to multiple sub-template by support categories. This would be a perfect place to show the regulation/name history. Perhaps something like this one:

Final one, no problem with spilt the 2022 junior article. Unnamelessness (talk) 04:23, 24 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Agree on merging WRC3, and agree since 2019 it's an unusual mess.
 * Simple renaming is OK where sources support (eg JWRC), but if JWRC finished and WRC4 started it's more likely they would be separate things. SWRC should not have been renamed as it doesn't belong with WRC2 at all. Different FIA rules, WRC regs, promoter, era of cars (but for existing homologations in crossover years). There's combined stats tables on the article but is there any source for any of it? eWRC and Juwra stats we linked to earlier cannot support it. All I see in the news reports is 'replaced by'. Forgive me if I'm over-explaining again, but Jari-Matti Latvala replaced Tommi Mäkinen as TGR team principal, doesn't justify one merged article! Rally Wonk (talk) 17:56, 24 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Rally Wonk would you withdraw the requested page move as it's clear for now that the discussion led to no consensus? We could ask for admin closure too. If necessary, you could try again in future. So it'd be now easier to go forward with the possible WRC3 move or merge.
 * World Rally Championship-2 does not currently mention the Masters and Juniors/Challengers part.
 * Whats your point with WRC2 Pro? Merge the 2019 seasons too? Pelmeen10 (talk) 09:08, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not willing to withdraw the request. If closed by admin that is fine, I will accept. Of the opposition received, only yours is valid IMO - and you support a move, just not sure what to. The other opposition haven't had the decency to justify their wild claims, without which we may have had consensus. Maybe one will reply as they promised.
 * Missing content under titles I don't recognise is irrelevant to me. Losing interest and enthusiasm now so without a move I probably won't be contributing in future. Happy to if a change is made.
 * I'd be happy for the WRC2 'derivatives' to sit in the WRC2 article as it is. Will leave it to the season article contributors for what there should be for all the specific championship titles. I think I mentioned it in context of WRC2 Pro becoming WRC2 when WRC2 became WRC3 etc.
 * Rally Wonk (talk) 18:07, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

WRC3 merge proposal
There is a merge proposed of World Rally Championship-3 and World Rally Championship-3 (2013–2018). Please view or contribute to the discussion. Rally Wonk (talk) 18:52, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

Project-independent quality assessments
Quality assessments by Wikipedia editors rate articles in terms of completeness, organization, prose quality, sourcing, etc. Most wikiprojects follow the general guidelines at Content assessment, but some have specialized assessment guidelines. A recent Village pump proposal was approved and has been implemented to add a class parameter to WikiProject banner shell, which can display a general quality assessment for an article, and to let project banner templates "inherit" this assessment.

No action is required if your wikiproject follows the standard assessment approach. Over time, quality assessments will be migrated up to WikiProject banner shell, and your project banner will automatically "inherit" any changes to the general assessments for the purpose of assigning categories.

However, if your project has decided to "opt out" and follow a non-standard quality assessment approach, all you have to do is modify your wikiproject banner template to pass WPBannerMeta a new custom parameter. If this is done, changes to the general quality assessment will be ignored, and your project-level assessment will be displayed and used to create categories, as at present. Aymatth2 (talk) 22:41, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

ERC winners
Please can somebody offer a third opinion on the recent edits to the table in the 'winners' section on European Rally Championship. There is some discussion on the talk page.

The editor might have accepted that the manufacturers they were adding weren't champions, but looks like won't accept that the cars driven by the champion drivers do not therefore become 'winning cars' equal to a championship, which is what the table looks like now, and the 'winners' section was called 'champions' at my last attempt to tidy it. To me it's too much information posing as misinformation (and being added at 70? edits in the past couple of days), what's best? Rally Wonk (talk) 16:57, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Steve Millen
Would someone please check recent edits by an IP on 7 June 2023. They changed the birth date from 17 Feb 1953 to 17 Feb 1950 with reference '"Millen"(Steve Millen autobiography),"The cutting edge"(Rod Millen autobiography)'. The edits used the wrong syntax which broke a template. Does anyone have info on this? Johnuniq (talk) 08:42, 14 June 2023 (UTC)


 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Birth_date_and_age
 * Add the citations after the }}. Try Birth date and age|1950|02|17|df=yes
 * One of those books is searchable online but I couldn't find any supporting or opposing text. Rally Wonk (talk) 17:15, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for investigating. Given that ref 2 says "Born: Feb 17, 1953" and we can't find anything supporting the 1950 change in the IP's ref, I will revert the edits as unsupported. Johnuniq (talk) 08:01, 15 June 2023 (UTC)