Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Signpost/2011-02-14/In the news


 * Everyone blames Wikipedia, when they need to blame the community.  Nascar  1996   02:22, 15 February 2011 (UTC)


 * The ChristWire interview is obviously a fake one. Amusingly, Conservapedia uses ChristWire as a reference on several pages. Nicolas1981 (talk) 06:30, 15 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you Nicolas, you made my day :-). --Chriswaterguy talk 13:38, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

"Lorcan Dempsey from the Online Computer Library Center ... reported that his daughter had been given an assignment in high school to insert errors into Wikipedia"
 * Vandalism as an assignment
 * Why the heck would a school give a student an assignment to vandalise Wikipedia? Can we find out the name of the school and chew them out? – ukexpat (talk) 13:49, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * That was my first thought as well. — V = IR (Talk&thinsp;&bull;&thinsp;Contribs) 15:37, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Really, high schools? That is like an assignment to vandalize street signs.  Teacher!  Leave those kids alone!  -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:57, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Unbelievable! What were the students supposed to learn from this? Was the teacher only trying to prove a point? How irresponsible! -- &oelig; &trade; 07:34, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * This isn't the first time I've heard of this sort of thing. And I've seen edit summaries from people who seriously trashed articles, claiming to be teachers illustrating to their students why Wikipedia Is Bad...aaaaaaugh! - The Bushranger One ping only 09:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Well I hope they also 'demonstrated' how quickly they got blocked afterwards! -- &oelig; &trade; 11:43, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Like any hack, this is a test of the robustness of our defense system. Teachers resent Wikipedia, not because it's unreliable (allegedly), but because it makes homework obsolete.  Who would actually do their textbook reading when they can just search for the article?  Ocaasi (talk) 21:19, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * This isn't even the first time I have heard of a teacher doing this. It is absolutely unacceptable for a teacher to vandalize Wikipedia. It is deserving of a formal reprimand at the least for severe lack of judgment. Jason Quinn (talk) 21:39, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Remember what you and your classmates were like in high school, then put yourself in the shoes of a teacher trying to help those teenager develop critical thinking skills. Why not have the class attempt to creatively vandalize articles: one would hope that with all of the automated, semi-automated, and manual counter-vandalism tools at our disposal, a certain percentage of the students would find their changes reverted. Whatever vandalism remains afterward would slowly disappear, but in the meanwhile that class had a hands-on experience that actively demonstrated to them the need for healthy skepticism about what they read online.  Sounds like a teachable moment to me. 67.100.126.117 (talk) 06:23, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Except that's not why they do it. They do it to demonstrate that Wikipedia is unreliable. (The example I mentioned used...rather more colorful language in the edit summary.) It's not anything close to educational, it's pure vandalism for the sake of vandalism - or for the sake of spite. And considering the way high schoolers are, odds are that even a good faith attempt to instill skepticism would only succeed in teaching most of them how to vandalise Wikipedia and that "vandalising Wikipedia is fun and cool". - The Bushranger One ping only 06:41, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I second The Bushranger's reply. And regarding, your comment, 67.100.126.117, if a teacher cannot think of a better way of explaining how vandalism gets repaired that actually introducing deliberate factual errors into the encyclopedia, they are a poor teacher. Jason Quinn (talk) 23:06, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
 * A "teachable moment"?? Instead wasting time vandalizing to demonstrate how supposedly unreliable Wikipedia is, why not do something more constructive like teaching them how to actually conduct proper research, using all available sources instead of relying on just Wikipedia. I really feel sorry for those kids, to have such a poor teacher as that. -- &oelig; &trade; 11:47, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The comment by The Bushranger mentions counter-evidence regarding the reported motivation of the teacher. But the follow-on comments seem to demonstrate a lack of understanding about what a teachable moment (TM) is, which could have been avoided if either of them had clicked on the wikilink and read that "It implies "personal engagement" with issues and problems. "  The engagement is the issue, and having them actually edits articles on topics that interest them fits the definition.  If I were the teacher, I would have them do several edits: one with petty vandalism ("teachers sucks!"), another citing a blog entry the student created at the same time and using that blog post as a reference, and a third, legitimate contribution based a cite-worthy reference.  I'd expect a bot to take care of the first (TM #1), a semi-automated or manual counter-vandalism tool would--depending on how clever the student was--have a decent chance of taking care of the second item (TM #2 in either case), and the third would probably stand (barring those patrolled by an over-opinionated editor). So if presented in a suitable context by the teacher, I think it fits the definition of teachable moments, and any bogus contributions that survive the running of the gauntlet provides the student with an engaging lesson about skepticism that is a lot more memorable than a teacher expressing his or her opinion about Wikipedia. 72.244.206.125 (talk) 01:05, 21 February 2011 (UTC) P.S. Websites like PBS provide classroom resources online...I wonder if Wikimedia Foundation has classroom resources within Wikiversity or some other project that attempt to educate teachers about the quality assurance processes behind Wikipedia?
 * Well, there is WikiProject Classroom coordination, as well as Editorial oversight and control & Quality control. -- &oelig; &trade; 12:28, 21 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Other
 * Zed Shaw needs to get a clue. We have notability requirements because we can't handle nested namespaces?!  Powers T 15:25, 15 February 2011 (UTC)


 * It is not only college students who are largely unaware of the revisions, discussions, and editorial considerations behind the articles. Negative perceptions of Wikipedia in the general public might be very different if there were greater awareness of this information, and awareness of how to use it. Teachers: even if you tell them it is unreliable, your students do use Wikipedia, and they will use Wikipedia as adults. Teach them how to use it intelligently: Wikipedia contains the tools for its own evaluation. Though one might not expect tabloids to so, one should be able to expect any high school graduate to be able to use this information for critical evaluation. ~ Ningauble (talk) 16:02, 15 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I think Jimbo's comment about the Daily Fail was appropriate... – ukexpat (talk) 16:27, 15 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Exactly, Nascar1996. It's user generated content. -- Perseus  8235 16:54, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

The piece says that most people aren't aware of the history page (and the epistemological insight that it provides). One thing about the usability and UI upgrades that I don't like is that they made the name of the tab longer ("History" changed to "View history") (no need for the extra word as far as I can figure), and, much more annoyingly, they made it so that it's often, by default window-sizing behavior, hidden behind a tiny drop-down spinner arrow that "Mr/Ms Average Epistemologically Dull-witted User" is never going to click on. At least if the "History" tab was always sitting there in plain sight, with a short label, asking to be clicked on, people would bother to mindlessly wander onto a history page more often, and maybe even learn something about where info comes from and how it's vetted (ie, epistemology). In the words of James Bridle, "Everything should have a history button." And the button should be big and shiny—not tiny and hidden. If we really care about de-idiot-izing Mr/Ms Average Reader about the epistemological guidelines of consuming content from Wikipedia, there's the place to start. And by the way, Wikipedia is more trustworthy than at least half of the traditional-editorial-mode content out there. The idea that traditional-editorial-mode content, just by being produced by that mode, is likelier to represent Real Truth™ than is WP, is a popular misapprehension—a socially sanctioned fairy tale—in other words, an emperor's-clothes situation that hasn't been properly exposed (heh) yet. About as etically accurate as, say, the idea of fan death. — ¾-10 15:42, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Epistemological ignorance in reader use of WP—how we can nudge to minimize it