Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Signpost/2017-06-09/Op-ed

Join the RfC in response to this article. —  A L T E R C A R I  ✍ 06:59, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Brilliant insight
Sometimes a problem is right in front of you, but you don't notice it until someone else points it out, at which point you see it everywhere. This essay is that sort of eye-opener. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:26, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Exactly. thank you Kaldari for bringing this up. --Saqib (talk) 06:24, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Solutions
Some infobox medical condition introduced a pronounce a while ago, which I think is a good solution. Alternate names/languages could be handled the same way in articles with infoboxes, e.g., as documented at Template:Infobox settlement.

Etymology is an endless problem (e.g., in anatomy articles), with some editors wanting it to be the first thing that you read, others wanting it last, and others not wanting it included at all. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:53, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Moving information to infoboxes seems like the right way to go. Inline parentheticals should be limited to what helps disambiguate the subject from plausible alternatives. – SJ  +  22:16, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
 * It is key that the first sentence of English Wikipedia be in English as much as possible. Not sure which language pronunciations are written in, but it is not one I can read. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 19:50, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Yeah it's unfortunate that we waste the most valuable real-estate in the article for information that only 0.01% of readers are both interested in and can understand (don't quote me on that statistic). Kaldari (talk) 20:14, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
 * This is described as a metadata explosion issue. Wasn't Wikidata created as a solution to metadata surfacing issues? Maybe original language pronunciations etc. be toggled by the user, to go fetch them from Wikidata? By the way, I agree that this is a problem for many articles. - Bri (talk) 21:32, 8 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Are there two date typos in this article? 2034 and 2021 are not here yet. Otherwise, very good use of examples. Regards, — JoeHebda • (talk) 02:34, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
 * No, those are hypothetical future states. --Izno (talk) 03:33, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Hi,, this op-ed is so poorly written that I had the same initial reaction as you. Pox on this whole op-ed. Blech. Cheers!  05:36, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, that is a logical conclusion if you don't read the Op-ed. Carl u  talk 07:12, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I am in violent agreement with this op-ed. The fnords are out of control and we need to take what steps we can to rein them in. —David Eppstein (talk) 03:41, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
 * +1 @Kaldari. KISS principle! All the extra information would fit neatly into infoboxes for those who need/want it (and let it be pulled from Wikidata) rather than clogging up the lead. Make it happen number one. — billinghurst  sDrewth  04:39, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
 * +1. Given Wikidata's motive to "collect structured data", I guess it stands as a natural and great choice to stop this metadata issue. This does require a progressive change as it affects the way people write/edit articles. This does require the consensus of the community. Hope it works! - - Kaartic correct me, if i'm wrong 10:23, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
 * This op-ed should be deepsixed. I was following along until it went into political April's Fools prank territory. This is a formal request to have this op-ed oversighted; just as the Trump/Wales April Fool's prank article ended up at Arb. Thank you. Cheers!  05:36, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Really? Have you nothing better to do? Carl Fredrik  talk 07:12, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I can only assume that this request is some sort of meta-joke. No, we are not going to oversight that part of the article, as it does not qualify under the oversight criteria.  Lankiveil (speak to me) 08:56, 11 June 2017 (UTC).
 * Total agreement. I don't have a solution, but recognize the same problems and have also heard 'casual' users around me mention this at times. Maybe it would be interesting to do some sandbox experiments with alternate presentation styles of the same article. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 06:26, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
 * For years, I have diverted the top pronunciation as footnote "[p]" (where "p" means "pronounce") to explain spoken form, and we could also have footnote "[d]" for long dates and places beyond years "1510-1588" plus footnote "[aka]" for aliases of "Ghengis Khan" in 4 other languages. So, this is a simple problem to fix, while adding extra details in footnotes or wikilinks for birthdate (like Jimbo's two birthdates), Elvis is "still alive" or nn% frequency of alias usage. We need to standardize pronunciation footnote "[p]" with "[d]" and "[aka]" (or such). -Wikid77 (talk) 22:13, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
 * That's a pretty cool idea! I might start using that myself. Kaldari (talk) 03:02, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree. That's a great solution, Wikid77. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 20:01, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
 * There's a local consensus that some video games editors observe to put the AKAs and the Japanese names of article topics inside a note, so this isn't so farfetched. --Izno (talk) 21:00, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
 * We've had this problem for a long time on medical articles as well, and we've been trying to move this type of data into the infobox. It would be nice to look at some of those articles as well, to see if the trend is any different. Carl Fredrik  talk 07:12, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Couldn't agree more. You could also have mentioned the unsightly and patronising proliferation of the respell templates which means that even very obvious words often have their pronunciation glossed in two different ways. I would get rid of respell completely, as it serves no real purpose and clogs up the leads of articles. --John (talk) 11:21, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Another +1 from me. If the purpose of this information is disambiguation, it should form part of the article title. If the purpose is to serve metadata then it belongs in the article's infobox. By using those two principles we can solve the problem completely. WaggersTALK  13:05, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
 * +1 I have been vigorously moving pronunciations of medications and diseases to the infobox. I have been moving etymology to the end of the lead or to the body. The first sentences of our article MUST be in English as much as possible on English Wikipedia. All pronunciations belong outside of the first sentence (in the infobox maybe) for all topics IMO. So do non English spellings. Only common alternative names and at most two should be allowed in the first sentence. Maybe we need a stronger policy about readable language? Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 15:11, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
 * This is described as a metadata explosion issue. Wasn't Wikidata created as a solution to metadata surfacing issues? Maybe original language pronunciations etc. be toggled by the user, to go fetch them from Wikidata? I agree that this is a problem for many articles. - Bri (talk) 15:29, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't see it as a problem - Once I see useless info I just skip to the next paragraph. As long as one paragraph doesn't have semi-useless info in the middle (but rather always at the end) it works OK. Ariel. (talk) 19:18, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
 * That seems like a dangerous assumption to make. All of the examples given in the article have material information in the first paragraph following the bracketed nonsense.  And I'd argue that the fact that we have mostly-useless information that readers have to skip over is a problem in itself.  Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 22:19, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
 * It pretty much is in the middle of the first sentence. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 12:41, 10 June 2017 (UTC).


 * I sense this is an issue that deserves a more extensive discussion that the Talk page of a Signpost article really isn't the best place for. Would someone like to start a thread at WP:Village pump, where it will attract input from a wider group? -- llywrch (talk) 21:37, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
 * +1 Send to Infobox. Failing that, to a later paragraph Jim.henderson (talk) 23:14, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Strongly agree - Doc James' solution is correct. But often there isn't an infobox, or you don't want it there, and most leads are too short, so a quick para at the end of the lead can hold it. Johnbod (talk) 02:34, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Where there isn't an infobox, why not use note? Putting this information in an endnote isn't ideal, but it's a lot better than cluttering up the lead. – Philosopher Let us reason together. 03:34, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
 * one can also put it in a section called pronunciation and etymology lower in articles. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 12:49, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I would favour reducing this to years only for biographies. For towns, significant alternative names are fine, but pronunciation guides could be moved to infoboxes.  All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 12:41, 10 June 2017 (UTC).


 * I note that some content mining software throws away the parenthetical in the lead. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 12:42, 10 June 2017 (UTC).

to reply to me 17:42, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
 * +1 infobox, -1 footnote. Keep it as structured as possible. Widefox ; talk 17:42, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment expressed in the editorial. I also think Wikid77's idea of using explanatory footnotes is a great solution. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 20:01, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Also agree it's a problem. The dates of birth and death are useful, and an occasional "must have" tidbit) but otherwise it belongs elsewhere than the lead. Jason Quinn (talk) 10:02, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
 * The years of birth and death are useful. The dates in more detail than that are clutter that belongs elsewhere in the article. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:36, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Back in April, I went through all the FAs and GAs I'd worked on and moved much of the "clutter" to explanatory notes. No one's objected, and I think they look and read much better. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:32, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Agreed with the sentiment here. I suggest a proper RfC and then we can start to trim the lead sentences back to shape. The metadata could be moved to infoboxes, or section on, uh, 'alternative names and related details'. Btw, I support keeping day and month of the birth and place for bio articles, it seems fine. No need for all the alt names, pronunciation, etc. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 03:13, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Some alt names are certainly needed in the first sentence, but common sense needs to be used, which our keener crufters tend to lack. Johnbod (talk) 03:19, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Spot on. Infoboxes are the place for this sort of thing. If only there weren't a minority opposed to using them in some articles. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 09:09, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Glad to know I'm not the only one bugged by this. Move to infobox sounds like a good idea. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 17:13, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Agree. Superfluous info in lead sentence can be placed in the infobox, in the second sentence/paragraph of the lead, or in the body of the article. Also, both infobox and body might be used, and the metadata in the body could be expounded upon when appropriate (to address the "growing metadata" concern), some of which might not be needed in the infobox.  Paine Ellsworth   put'r there  01:22, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Seconding Doc James's comments earlier above. He and I have worked through this issue on WP:MED articles to the point where all you need is any sensible combination of (1) infobox parameter values (for example, Synonyms, OtherName, Pronunciation, Pronounce, various date parameters) and (2) a section down lower in the article (for example, Etymology and pronunciation, History, Nomenclature, or Society and culture, depending on the instance), and you can include *all* information without clogging the lede *and* without sacrificing anything. Quercus solaris (talk) 02:46, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
 * From a wide, reader-friendly (and sleeker metadata) outlook, I wholeheartedly and way thoroughly back the pith of this well-written op-ed. Give them a smooth shave by all means. But. I've always had a half-crazy, wonkish, fawnish fondness for those long and winding roads, those parenthesis-sliced, comma-delimited, italics-littered, IPA-riddled, hyperlink-hived lead sentences on en.WP, which I find even more fun in biographical articles. I'm down for 'em like nifty-quick little crossword puzzles! Gwen Gale (talk) 08:47, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
 * What this op-ed terms a "metadata virus" looks like a simple tendency to include as many translations of a name as possible, and is often easily solved using Infobox Chinese (misleadingly named, as it has options for all sorts of other languages). I'm ignoring the hypothetical example because that's never going to happen. Jc86035 (talk) <span style="display:inline-block;margin-bottom:-0.3em;vertical-align:-0.4em;line-height:1.2em;font-size:80%;text-align:left">Use &#123;&#123;re&#124;Jc86035&#125;&#125;
 * I have seen quite a lot of activity in the past year of editors cutting lead sentences down to size. In fact I imagined that we'd already reached a consensus to have nothing more than dates in the parenthesis, so I use infoboxes for other stuff. If that's not already the standard, it should be, as the article implies. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:07, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
 * (copy of my RfC !vote) strongly support - more and more of a readers use mobile (up to 60% now) - clutter in the first sentences means absurd amounts of scrolling to get to anything meaningful. As a result the WMF started inserting the description field from Wikidata (unsourced,  mostly unpatrolled) at the start of articles, to give readers a sense of what the article is about with reasonable efficiency. Vandalism that appeared in an article via the description field led to this ANI thread, which led to this RfC to ask WMF to stop using WIkidata this way (succeeded and done), which led User:Dank to open this thread at WT:FAC to make tight lead sentences part of FAR.   This is important - we should not have clutter in the first 2.5 paragraphs - we have a responsibility to keep these sentences focused on content that summarizes the article. We have infoboxes and sections below for the details like etymology, pronunciation, alt names, etc.Jytdog (talk) 14:49, 3 July 2017 (UTC)