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The article is written badly in my opinion and this is the direct outcome of hastily moving of the page from a highly notable title to a broader but less notable one. Most of the page is dedicated to the developments in the US, while there are ongoing protests occurring theses days across the globe in the university campuses. Every section of the article, including the lead, needs to be modified so it lends due weight to incidents outside the US.--Mhhosseintalk 16:30, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I assume you mean moving from US protests to broader international context? This wasn't a hasty move but the result of a WP:SNOW close requested move discussion with broad consensus, as the protests had expanded beyond the United States by this point, so it was entirely logical.
Most of the page is dedicated to the United States, because this is WP:DUE based on the weight of RS content. Yes there have been protests in other countries, notably Australia, the Netherlands and the UK, but there hasn't been anywhere near half as much coverage (or protests) outside the US. This is also evident based the size of the U.S. list vs the International list, the former being twice the size of the latter (if you include the California list) to the word count). The most notable aspects being mass arrests in Amsterdam that is referenced in the lead followed by numerous protests in UK, Australia and Canada, again referenced in lead.
That said, I recognise there is significant improvement that could occur in the lead to better summarise the body. Per WP:SUMMARY, the lead should be a summary of this article, not the child articles previously referenced, which should merely be referenced in the lead with a wikilink included, which is currently the case. Two paragraphs from this lead were moved to the list of U.S. protests, specifically because they were a summary of that body, and no longer a summary of this article's body. I understand the argument of this article lead being a summary of the article and all child articles, but personally I think this would be repetition of the child article leads that serve this purpose.
I intend to work on improving the lead to move away further from a U.S. scope, as there are certainly other aspects that could/should be included (specifically the Netherlands and possibly Australia). There is also a slanted focus on summarising controversies I noticed (lots of antisemitism and not much on anything else), so I intend to fix that as well. But otherwise, this article is effectively an overview of the protests themselves, not intended to be a full documentation of all the protests (which is what the list articles are for). CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 19:54, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Care to respond @Mhhossein? Certain edits have been made to broaden the scope, but there doesn't seem like much else is left to include based on available due content from RS. See Responses section in particular, with content moved from the List of protests article, documenting responses in Australia and the UK, that is very much due. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 22:17, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@CommunityNotesContributor Sorry for the delay. I am not objecting the move which is apprently backed by a consensus. I don't think DUE coverage was given to important POVs and I understand that this requires more work. --Mhhosseintalk 11:01, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not done The reference is to "Pro-Palestinian and Jewish student protesters", which is accurate per RS, it does not reference or represent "Columbia Jewish students", which is a completely difficult subset of individuals. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 00:52, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t see why this shouldn’t be rephrased as just “Pro-Palestinian student protesters at Columbia have insisted the protests are not antisemitic” because including the word Jewish suggests that most Jewish students on campus think the protests are not antisemitic (a narrative). Indeed, as referenced in the NYT article, many Jews on campus do believe the protests are antisemitic. 71.179.129.209 (talk) 07:57, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Because the source clearly states "Jewish student protesters", and the context is very relevant. Including the word Jewish does not suggest a generalisation at all. It's otherwise well documented in the body tunder Antisemitism allegations section that that most Jewish students believe the protests are antisemitic (61% specifically), although this content could be summarised in the lead at this point. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 11:30, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
agreed. hillel is fairly pro-israeli, so IDK if i believe all of their numbers are as high as they are, but i do believe some majority of jewish students probably are against protests.
I think the change made to the article is an improvement.
However, just because the source includes information to create a narrative, doesn’t mean that the information should also be included in the Wiki to create the same narrative. It is irrelevant if some Jews believe it is not antisemitic. There will always be Blacks and Jews who support the KKK, but including that in an article about claims that the KKK is racist and antisemitic is clearly trying to delegitimize the claims and is not a neutral representation. That is even a complaint by the Columbia Jewish students: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/09/nyregion/columbia-university-jewish-students-letter.html71.179.129.209 (talk) 05:56, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's also misleading or not neutral at best to say that people "insisted" that the protests weren't anti-semitic. "Insist" is usually used when someone denies something continuously. Even if one believes that's not the case, I recommend using "continuously stated" or "continuously expressed" to avoid any confusion and keep neutrality. Kakaeater (talk) 18:55, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I find the structure of articles on this topic to be somewhat confusing, and I imagine many a lay reader is confused as well. I understand that Wikipedia is not US-centric, and I don't want it to be, but these campus protests have been a US-centric event. The US protests have been the most significant and numerous, and started the movement. I personally have clicked through to the List of Protests article when trying to read about or edit some more obscure detail about the US protests, only to find that they aren't included in the regular list and have their own article. I find that counterintuitive because this is ultimately a US-centric event. I imagine many readers have done the same. The multi-hatnote allows the reader to understand up front how the child articles on this topic are organized so they can get where they need to go with less confusion. Unbandito (talk) 13:04, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Could this be addressed by some kind of sidebar or small navbox under the infobox? WP:HATNOTEs are ideally limited to one and hatnote over use can just make the whole thing confusing in another way. See WP:HATCHEAP. Kire1975 (talk) 14:30, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is a hatnote at the top of the List of protests for U.S. protests, which should make it clear enough. I realise it means two clicks to get to that content, but otherwise it's linked in the first line of the lead, as well as in the list of countries in infobox. I don't think we should have a hatnote for U.S. protests as well, without having one for Netherlands and California (list of protests), which would be excessive. The fact the U.S. protests have been the most significant isn't much of a reason to have a hatnote for them imo, as that article is now a grandchild of this one (a child of List of protests), and not a child of this article. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 11:01, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Kire1975 I don't see anything in WP:HATCHEAP about limiting a hatnote to one link, but some kind of navbox is something I would compromise on if you all feel strongly about limiting the hatnote. WP:HATCHEAP says:
"2. Removing a hatnote will not save database memory. Only remove hatnotes that are a net negative for readers.
3. Do remove hatnotes that are:
misleading
confusing
needlessly astonishing"
I don't see this hatnote fitting any of that criteria.
@CommunityNotesContributor I don't think the US article should be considered a proper grandchild article, even if it is considered one under the structure of Wikipedia. Practically speaking, the List article was split in two, because there is roughly the same amount of coverage of protests in the US as there is in the entire rest of the world. In fact, the US article is almost 3x longer than its "parent"! This is clearly a US-centric event that warrants making it easy to navigate to a page with more detail about protests in the US. Furthermore, the parent List article is misleadingly titled because it gives no indication that it's about protests everywhere except in the US. I don't see a problem with that, since I can't think of an alternative title that isn't *too* US-centric, but I think that many readers will click the hatnote link expecting to find US protests, and a double hatnote can make sure everyone gets where they are trying to go on the first click. Unbandito (talk) 04:07, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:HATCHEAP says "Do not add hatnotes for their own sake." If the purpose can be achieved with a sidebar navbox, then you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. These lists are very long.
Don't ignore what was said about WP:HATNOTE: "Ideally, limit hatnotes to just one at the top of the page or section. Multiple hatnotes may be appropriate when they serve different purposes, such as disambiguating topics with similar names and explaining redirects." Multiple hatnotes in this case would all serve the same purpose. Kire1975 (talk) 06:38, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's right, "Multiple hatnotes may be appropriate when they serve different purposes, such as disambiguating topics with similar names and explaining redirects." Seems to apply perfectly to this situation. I'm totally open to the idea of a navbox, but I don't know how to make one or what it would look like. All I feel strongly about is that the reader should be able to cleanly (in one click, without skimming this page) navigate to at least a summary of any specific protest they're looking for from this page. If you're able to make a navbox, that would be great. Otherwise I'll probably add the multi-hatnote unless a strong objection is raised. Unbandito (talk) 03:33, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 May 2024[edit]
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The statement “Protesters have also faced violence at the hands of pro-Israeli counter-protesters” would be more neutral if phrased as “Protesters also clashed with pro-Israeli counter-protesters.” 71.179.129.209 (talk) 03:36, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That wouldn't be neutral, that would be a POV based on ignoring the RS reporting that pro-Israeli protesters have violently attacked protesters. The lead otherwise summarises the body. That is a summary of the body. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 11:02, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Have improved by replacing that source with The Guardian coverage "UCLA chancellor condemns 'instigators' who attacked pro-Palestinian camp on campus" [1] Hopefully that clarifies it better based on sourcing, I had previously taken the source for student journalists being attacked, but this reference is much more accurate. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 19:27, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So you removed a neutral source in favor of a source that supports a narrative. This is why Wikipedia has such a poor reputation. 71.179.129.209 (talk) 21:03, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think that seems very reasonable to add, given the forced reeducation and public humiliation involved. David A (talk) 11:49, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A highly polarizing series of events will inevitably get reactions from highly polarizing figures haha. Personally, I consider Ayatollah is just as bad as most of the other regional power actors too haha.
We should look for another source besides newsweek. I think its meh on Wikipedia:RSP list, but can probably include this source for now? User:Sawerchessread (talk) 21:43, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Split portion of Allegations of anti-Palestinianism and Islamophobia[edit]
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🌙Eclipse (talk) (contribs) 13:44, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
Not done The reference is to "Pro-Palestinian and Jewish student protesters", which is accurate per RS, it does not reference or represent "Columbia Jewish students", which is a completely difficult subset of individuals. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 00:52, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
Done Have changed to said. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 20:17, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
