Talk:Kidnapping of Noa Argamani

This article was nominated for deletion on 27 January 2024. The result of the discussion was keep.

Warning: active arbitration remedies

The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:

You must be logged-in and extended-confirmed to edit or discuss this topic on any page (except for making edit requests, provided they are not disruptive)
You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on any edits related to this topic

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

Further information

The exceptions to the extended confirmed restriction are:

Non-extended-confirmed editors may use the "Talk:" namespace only to make edit requests related to articles within the topic area, provided they are not disruptive.
Non-extended-confirmed editors may not create new articles, but administrators may exercise discretion when deciding how to enforce this remedy on article creations. Deletion of new articles created by non-extended-confirmed editors is permitted but not required.

With respect to the WP:1RR restriction:

Clear vandalism of whatever origin may be reverted without restriction. Also, reverts made solely to enforce the extended confirmed restriction are not considered edit warring.
Editors who violate this restriction may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offence.

After being warned, contentious topics procedure can be used against any editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process. Contentious topic sanctions can include blocks, topic-bans, or other restrictions.
Editors may report violations of these restrictions to the Arbitration enforcement noticeboard.

If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. When in doubt, don't revert!

This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.

If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page.

Biography

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles

Crime and Criminal Biography Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Israel Low‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Israel on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IsraelWikipedia:WikiProject IsraelTemplate:WikiProject IsraelIsrael-related articles

Low

This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Project Israel To Do:

Here are some tasks awaiting attention:

Assess : Rate the Unassessed Israel-related articles and Unknown-importance Israel-related articles.
Categorization : Diffuse articles from Category:Companies of Israel.
Cleanup : Cleanup listing for this project is available. See also the list by category and the tool's wiki page.
Collaborate : Participate in WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration.
Copyedit : Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in 2005
Deletion sorting : Participate in discussions at WikiProject Deletion sorting/Israel.
Expand : Ayala Procaccia, Diamond industry in Israel, Edna Arbel, Levin Kipnis, Rami Kleinstein, Sephardic Haredim, Zman Tel Aviv, Nachum Heiman, Public Defence (Israel), Prisoner of Zion, Trial of Benjamin Netanyahu, Day to Mark the Departure and Expulsion of Jews from the Arab Countries and Iran, Pre-Modern Aliyah
See also Articles needing translation from Hebrew Wikipedia.
Geographical coordinates : Add geographic coordinates to Israel articles missing geocoordinate data.
Infobox : Add infoboxes to Israel articles needing infoboxes.
Maintain : See Israel articles needing attention.
Map : See discussion at Module:Location map/data/Israel. Add maps to articles in Wikipedia requested maps in Israel.
NPOV : Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries
Photo : Add pictures to articles in Wikipedia requested photographs in Israel.
Stubs : See Israel stubs.
Update : Basic Law proposal: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People
Other :
- Translate to Hebrew : David Bar-Hayim, Guy Bavli, and Guy Oseary.
- Merge Nahal Rafiah (draft, heb) into Nahal as requested by Wikipedia authority

Israel Palestine Collaboration

This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration, a collaborative, bipartisan effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. For guidelines and a participants list see the project page. See also {{Palestine-Israel enforcement}}, the ArbCom-authorized discretionary sanctions, the log of blocks and bans, and Working group on ethnic and cultural edit wars. You can discuss the project at its talk page.Israel Palestine CollaborationWikipedia:WikiProject Israel Palestine CollaborationTemplate:WikiProject Israel Palestine CollaborationIsrael Palestine Collaboration articles

Palestine Low‑importance

	Palestine portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Palestine, a team effort dedicated to building and maintaining comprehensive, informative and balanced articles related to the geographic Palestine region, the Palestinian people and the State of Palestine on Wikipedia. Join us by visiting the project page, where you can add your name to the list of members where you can contribute to the discussions.PalestineWikipedia:WikiProject PalestineTemplate:WikiProject PalestinePalestine-related articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Terrorism Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Terrorism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles on terrorism, individual terrorists, incidents and related subjects on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.TerrorismWikipedia:WikiProject TerrorismTemplate:WikiProject TerrorismTerrorism articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Women

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of women on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.WomenWikipedia:WikiProject WomenTemplate:WikiProject WomenWikiProject Women articles

Daily pageviews of this article

A graph should have been displayed here but graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at pageviews.wmcloud.org

her mother is dying[edit]

should be added that her mother suffers from brain cancer. Pacifico (talk) 10:46, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree Lols314 (talk) 17:48, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Correct wording[edit]

Disgusting twist of reality!!!! It was not an “incursion”…it was an ATTACK. They are not “militants”…..they are TERRORISTS!!! 69.120.44.104 (talk) 14:16, 13 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

dumbfuck 2600:1700:1D21:A0B0:A4F8:98F2:F796:83C8 (talk) 18:18, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is who moderates content? What a joke. 80.246.130.74 (talk) 18:54, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, such a falsification of history is appalling, Hamas is a terrorist organization with the agenda to commit genocide on the Jewish people and steal their homeland. Why are you lying about these facts? 2A01:799:193:4800:1FF:50C4:7859:FE32 (talk) 06:53, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not abducted by Hamas[edit]

New evidence confirms Hamas was not involved with this kidnapping. It was just your average Palestinians. I suggest you update as to not continue this conspiracy theory that only Hamas kidnapped people. 80.246.130.74 (talk) 18:53, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

she's a soldier 178.220.20.206 (talk) 11:57, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

military service in the Navy[edit]

She was confirmed to be in israeli navy in the past by local media and her personal social media. that should not be omitted. Star72 (talk) 13:14, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Injured by shrapnel[edit]

In the testimony published on January 14th, she told she was injured "in her head and body by shrapnel" due to israeli airstrikes. Source : https://abc7news.com/israel-hamas-hostages-video/14330618/ Jahsensie (talk) 14:30, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 9 June 2024[edit]

It has been proposed in this section that Kidnapping of Noa Argamani be renamed and moved to Noa Argamani.

A bot will list this discussion on requested moves' current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly.

Links: current log • target log • direct move

Kidnapping of Noa Argamani → Noa Argamani – The article is not primarily about the kidnapping, but about her as a person who was kidnapped. One one of the paragraphs talks about her kidnapping. The rest is the negotiations, her rescue, and information about her background. Its much more of a person article than an event article. TimeEngineer (talk) 07:24, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Contrary to what the nominator says, this article is primarily about the kidnapping and its aftermath, and information about Argamani is background information.—Alalch E. 14:11, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. The article is almost entirely about her kidnapping and subsequent rescue. Sure, maybe it could be renamed "Kidnapping and Rescue of Noa Argamani" — but naming it simply "Noa Argamani" suggests that she is a notable personage in her own right, when she is primarily known for having been held hostage. Selfgyrus (talk) 14:54, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Please see WP:BLP1E and WP:BIO1E. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 15:12, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Argamani is still known for events related to her kidnapping and rescue. Mason (talk) 17:28, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose The kidnapping is more than just the act of abduction. The captivity also counts and negotiations were held during that period. Killuminator (talk) 18:53, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No good reason to think Noa was held in the Al Jamal family home, so we shouldn't say she was[edit]

The article's current source for this, an Israeli news channel, cites Rami Abdul as its source. But Rami never asserted what the article (or any of the other news articles characterising his tweet in the same way) claims he said.

The actual statement by Rami is that the Al Jamal home was one of seven stormed during the Israeli operation, and that Israeli troops summarily "executed" three members of the family, including Abdullah. Nowhere does he assert that there were hostages in the home, nor does this logically follow from Rami's claims. See the original tweets at https://x.com/RamAbdu/status/1799510802778481117 and https://x.com/RamAbdu/status/1799722023519670685.

One more minor detail: I also note that Rami characterises the Al Jamal home as a "house", not a flat or apartment. But at https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-frees-4-hostages-after-8-months-captivity-in-daring-daytime-raid-in-central-gaza/ the Times of Israel, presumably reporting based on what they were told by Israeli sources, state that the hostages were found in homes in two multi-storey buildings. There is thus a contradiction between the Times's reporting and other outlets' supposition that the Al Jamal *house* mentioned by Rami was one of the ones containing hostages. It's not very strong evidence because either the Times or Rami could be mischaracterising the homes involved. But it is at least mild evidence against the Al Jamal home being one of the two that contained hostages.

(Similarly, Rami claims it was the army who raided the Al Jamal home, but the homes containing hostages were raided by Yamam, *not* by members of the Israeli army. Though, again, this is weak evidence because I doubt Palestinian witnesses would be able to distinguish the two.)

Finally, even if the Al Jamal home *was* one of the two holding hostages, there is absolutely no basis to think it was the one containing Noa, rather than the one containing the other three hostages. This detail has just been manufactured out of no evidence whatsoever.

Unless and until there is some more reliable basis to accuse the Al Jamal family of holding hostages, we shouldn't claim that they were. I'd make the edit myself, but can't because the article is protected; hopefully someone with the power to do so will do it.

ExplodingCabbage (talk) 15:06, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The IDF has issued this statement at https://t.me/idfofficial:

> IDF: Following the completion of IDF and ISA examinations of reports on the subject, it can be confirmed that Abdallah Aljamal was an operative in the Hamas terrorist organization, who held the hostages Almog Meir Jan, Andrey Kozlov, and Shlomi Ziv captive in his family home in Nuseirat.

> The hostages were held captive by Abdallah Aljamal and members of his family in their home. This is further evidence of the deliberate use of civilian homes and buildings by the Hamas terrorist organization to hold Israeli hostages captive in the Gaza Strip.

> Israeli security forces will continue to make every effort to bring the hostages home.

I don't necessarily take for granted that the IDF are telling the truth here, but I trust them more than any of the other sources thus far. (The mention of "examinations of reports" makes it sound like they may be relying on the same dodgy media articles that this Wikipedia article is.) Nonetheless, this is further corroboration that the Al-Jamal's were not involved in holding Noa Aragamani, specifically, so I would suggest scrubbing all mention of them from this article (even if it now may be justifiable to label them as hostage-keepers on other articles where they are more relevant). ExplodingCabbage (talk) 17:33, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done, on the basis of IDF statements that the Al-Jamal's were involved in holding the other 3 hostages but not the subject of this article. Selfgyrus (talk) 18:39, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]