Category talk:School massacres

This category was nominated for deletion on 27 December 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

This category was nominated for deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:

upmerge to Category:School massacres, 22 November 2007, see discussion.
upmerge to Category:School massacres, 7 November 2007, see discussion.

This category was nominated for deletion on 28 April 2008. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Death

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Schools

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Crime and Criminal Biography: Serial, mass, and spree killers

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Need for a "massacres" category?[edit]

I'm hoping to start a discussion here on a possible need for a "massacres" category. I have read the deletion debate here and invited comments from those who voted there.

I realise that there is a list of massacres at List of massacres, but what I fail to understand is why the category is deleted because use of the term is controversial, but the list stays - surely inclusion on the list is just as controversial, even if a list does allow explanations. I would find the category far more useful than the list - as an initial criteria, I would say that any article with the word "massacre" in the title (or a redirect to it with the word "massacre" in the title) should qualify for such a category.

And there is precedent for allowing categories with ambiguous wording. Such as this one here (Category:School massacres) and Category:Disasters. The precise definition of a disaster and the criteria can vary, but the category system is still useful as updating a list is untenable for open-ended historical events such as disasters and massacres.

So, provided there is a strict restriction (based on the title and whether an article survives AfD - ie. the normal Wikipedia balances and checks), is there any support for the recreation of Category:Massacres? Carcharoth 11:42, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In cases like this, there a two key differences between lists and categories:

Lists can qualify the "massacre-ness" of an event, e.g. given the number of victims and sort which use of the word "massacre" applies. Categories group everything together, from a 7 victim criminal shooting to a 7000 victim war crime.
Categories are invasive (appearing in the article), lists are not.

I strongly discourage re-creating Category:Massacres, also IMHO the "school masacres" should be re-named and re-classified as "school spree shootings".

Pjacobi 12:01, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The creation of suitable subcategories would also qualify the massacre-ness of an event. As for the intrusiveness of a category, that is no more intrusiveness than having "massacre" in the title of an article. I am more than happy for controverisial massacres to be omitted (eg. Kent State shootings) and to restrict this to articles with "massacre" in the title. The category blurb should also emphasise very strongly that this is a controversial term and that a fuller list, including genocides and other terms, is found at List of massacres. A good starting point would be categorising the articles (and redirects where helpful) on this automatically generated list here. Carcharoth 12:07, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Rename from "massacres" to "spree shootings"[edit]

Above is a suggestion to rename this category (and the relevant subcategories) from "School massacres" to "School spree shootings". I agree with this, with the caveat that the Beslan school hostage crisis and the Ma'alot massacre and the Bath School disaster and the Poe Elementary School Attack and the Cologne School Massacre and the Osaka school massacre are not technically spree shootings, as they either did not involve guns (instead using bombs, knives, flamethrowers, or lances), or (Beslan and Ma'alot) are better characterised as hostage/terrorist situations. Also, Santee, California and Bethel, Alaska are temporary placeholders as the relevant school shooting articles haven't been written (see [[1] and [2] for details). If I have time, I'll tidy this up and do suitable renamings if needed. Carcharoth 12:32, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think this works, because of the counterexamples you mention (killings that aren't shootings). Instead, I propose renaming to Category:Massacres at educational institutions. The purpose of this is to pave the way for putting Category:University shootings (or a similar cat, because currently University shootings is for killings and shootings that don't kill) in a subcategory of the new cat. In the UK, universities aren't considered schools, but they are educational institutions. See Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2008_April_28#Category:School_massacres. Superm401 - Talk 01:23, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]