Draft talk:Black market in wartime France/translation in progress

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Refs done[edit]

@Elinruby:, I think all refs to the current revision (1171771242) are done now. This includes refs inside the hidden comments, so as you translate, I'm expecting the {{sfn}} templates to just work, and link properly to the full citations in the bibliography transcluded here from live, and then when you merge the completed translation back into live, it should continue to work there, as it will be seeing the identical bibliography there as here; everything should just work seamlessly. Let me know if it doesn't. Mathglot (talk) 03:48, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Worksheet, and adjust refs[edit]

This section was originally present in the Draft page, and moved here at 03:54, 23 August 2023 (UTC) by Mathglot (talk).
If you need new bibliographic citations for your ongoing translation that are not already in the live Bibliography section, you have two choices: 1) add them to this section, and then don't forget to copy them over to live later, when you copy over the content; 2) add them directly to the live Bibliography now, and ignore any "no link pointing here" warnings in the live article—which no one else will see, unless they have the script installed, and then it doesn't matter. Imho, #2 is better.


@Mathglot: thanks, this is better than my plan, which was to worry about named references when done. But there is, as we see,a great deal of reuse. I have been seeing some new references, not in Harvard format, and am simply translating the format for the moment, but yes, since the page is using Harvard references, they should be added to the bibliography. And yes, 2 is better.Elinruby (talk) 20:14, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ref error resolution[edit]

note to self: "ref group="Gr" name=":21"" may need to be whitelisted; not immediately seeing the problem. While come back to this; pretty sure I understand the others. Elinruby (talk) 22:24, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No whitelist; just:
  • <ref group="Gr" name=":21"/> ⟶ {{sfn|Grenard|2008|p=148–149}} M.
  • <ref name=GrCE group="Gr" /> ⟶ {{sfn|Grenard|2010a|p=132–158}} M.
Ref :3= GrCe :14=MouréTherm =same as :19; done; M.
(somewhat later) looks like these got done? if so I am going back on break for a bit and will translate some more when back. Maybe move some stuff over. Thank you for the worksheet. Clearly the way I have been doing this is not the easy way. Elinruby (talk) 01:46, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ok well, that was an eyewatering lesson in doing one thing at a time. Thank you very much for your help. Need a short break now that we at least aren't throwing errors but I see and understand the note above about GrCe, and yes I can do that in maybe half an hour. And per earlier conversation check to make sure all these new references are in the bibliography? Btw, forget what I said on the talk page about the Milice. It comes up in the next sections and it's cited. Back soon. Elinruby (talk) 00:26, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Work sheet #2 for adjusting refs from the French article – reference conversion details.

If these refs appear in the French source, they need to be converted to {{sfn}}s: 

<ref group="Gr" name=":17" /> or <ref name=":17" group="Gr" /> ⟶ {{sfn|Grenard|2008|p=132-146}}
<ref group="Gr" name=":18" /> or <ref name=":18" group="Gr" />  ⟶  {{sfn|Grenard|2008|p=147-151}}
<ref group="Gr" name=":19">{{Harvsp|Grenard|2008|p=152-155}}</ref> or <ref group="Gr" name=":19" />  ⟶  {{sfn|Grenard|2008|p=152-155}}
<ref group="Gr" name=":20">{{Harvsp|Grenard|2008|p=155-165}}</ref> or <ref group="Gr" name=":20" />  ⟶ {{sfn|Grenard|2008|p=155-165}}
<ref group="Gr" name=":21">{{Harvsp|Grenard|2008|p=166-181}}</ref> or <ref group="Gr" name=":21" />  ⟶ {{sfn|Grenard|2008|p=166-181}}k (or, {{sfn|Grenard|2008|p=148–149}}? double-check this one)
<ref name=":23" group="Gr" />
<ref group="Gr" name=":23">{{Harvsp|Grenard|2008|p=188-193}}</ref> or <ref name=":23" group="Gr" /> ⟶ {{sfn|Grenard|2008|p=188-193}}
<ref group="Gr" name=":24">{{Harvsp|Grenard|2008|p=194-203}}</ref> or <ref name=":24" group="Gr" /> ⟶ {{sfn|Grenard|2008|p=194-203}}  
<ref group="Gr" name=":25">{{Harvsp|Grenard|2008|p=204-209}}</ref> or <ref name=":25" group="Gr" /> ⟶ {{sfn|Grenard|2008|p=204–209}}
<ref group="Gr" name=":26">{{Harvsp|Grenard|2008|p=211-217}}</ref> or <ref name=":26" group="Gr" />  ⟶ {{sfn|Grenard|2008|p=211-217}}
<ref group="Gr" name=":27">{{Harvsp|Grenard|2008|p=217-226}}</ref> or <ref name=":27" group="Gr" /> ⟶ {{sfn|Grenard|2008|p=217-226}}
<ref group="Gr" name=":28">{{Harvsp|Grenard|2008|p=227-233}}</ref> or <ref name=":28" group="Gr" /> ⟶ {{sfn|Grenard|2008|p=227-233}}
<ref name=GrCE group="Gr" /> ⟶ {{sfn|Grenard|2010a|p=132–158}}
<ref group="Sa" name=":12">{{Harvsp|Sanders|2001|p=86-89}}</ref>  ⟶ {{sfn|Sanders|2001|p=86-89}}
<ref name=":3" /> ⟶ {{sfn|Grenard|2010a|pp=132-158}}
<ref name=":4" />  ⟶ {{sfn|Chélini|2023|pp=237–264}}
<ref name=":5"> ⟶ {{sfn|Capdevila|1999|pages=250-260}} # Note: the /tip draft has this as <ref name=": 5"> (with space)
<ref name=":6" />  ⟶ {{sfn|Fishman|2008|p=65-108}}
<ref name=":13" /> and <ref name="twenty-one"> (wtf?)  ⟶ {{sfn|de Rochebrune|Hazera|2013|p=185-236}}
<ref name=":14">  ⟶ {{sfn|Berlière|2018|p=800-809}}
<ref name=":16">  and <ref name="twenty-seven"> ?? ⟶ {{sfn|Grenard|Mouré|2008|p=51–68}}
<ref name=":19" /> {{sfn|Mouré|2020|pp=267-280}}
<ref name=":23" /> or <ref name=":23">...</ref> ⟶ {{sfn|Radtke-Delacor|2010|p=128-129}}
<ref name="Seconde Guerre mondiale"> ⟶ {{sfn|Lastécouères|2022|p=79-103}}

Do you see Cite error: There are <ref group=XX> tags on this page, but ... below this? Ignore them. M.

Thanks Elinruby (talk) 23:43, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not translate sfn's or citations[edit]

Please don't run SFNs or French citations through automatic translation. It's hard enough dealing with the screwed up refs in that article, without making it worse by auto-translating the refs; I'm seeing:

  • {{Chapitre|prénom=Florent|nom=Le Bot|...

ending up as

  • {{cite book|language=en|first1=Bot|last1=Florence|...

(in section § Confiscation of illicit profits), and sfn's like {{sfn|The Bot|...}}. I've fixed that one example (see diff), but if you can just leave French sfn's and citations unchanged from the French original, the CS1 translator (and AnomieBOT) will handle most of them, and in the case of {{Chapitre}}, that's handled by the sandbox currently, but when you're done importing text, just lmk and I'll temporarily point the redirect at the sandbox, and it will pick up all the {{Chapitre}}s and translate them. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 19:23, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't rename refs from the French article, or if you do, please leave a trace in the worksheet on this TP. Ref <ref name="twenty-one"> in section § Confiscation of illicit profits took me forever to disentangle; I had to track it back to the original in section Confiscation des profits illicites of the French article (and find it following the words "y est assassiné en juin 1945") to find it there as <ref name=":13" />, then track that to section Forces d'occupation, but there was a mismatch between the "twenty-one" def and the "Ouvrage" in the original, as the "title" in the /tip had the authors, but no actual title; however the rest (pub, year, etc.) all matched up, and the pages almost did, so I realized that "twenty-one" was actually <ref name=":13" /> from the French article, i.e., {{Ouvrage|auteur1=Renaud de Rochebrune|auteur2=Jean-Claude Hazera|titre=Les patrons sous l’Occupation|passage=185-236|lieu=Paris|éditeur=Odile Jacob|date=2013|pages totales=962|isbn=9782738129383|lire en ligne=https://www.cairn.info/les-patrons-sous-l-occupation--9782738129383.htm}}, so I started to create it, but then realized we had it all along in the Bibliography already, so we just need to add {{sfn|de Rochebrune|Hazera|2013|p=185-236}} in place of <ref name="twenty-one"> to refer to it. In a case like this, with a named ref (<ref name=":13">) either just leave it that way, or if you resolve it, add something to the Ref error resolution worksheet; or if you have to change the ref name for some reason, then please leave breadcrumbs in place, e.g. <ref name="twenty-one"><!--Note: named ':13' in the original--> or similar. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 21:26, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Mathglot: I'll fix the references if there is mistakes. I know what is going on with ref 21. Can you remove that big stop sign stuff so I can on. Where there is a mismatch, it will get fixed before it is moved across. scope_creepTalk 06:02, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The automatic translator is useless as too slow and intermittent. If you see an error, ping me here on something and we can address it. I've removed the stop sign stuff. scope_creepTalk 06:06, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'll leave the breadcrumbs scope_creepTalk 06:07, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Mathglot: Thanks for checking. I really appreciate it. I'll leave bread crumbs. scope_creepTalk 06:19, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Still investigating. I won't restore the stop sign, but I hope this doesn't end up so hopelessly tangled that it becomes unworkable. Suggestion for avoiding problems (not a complete solution, but should avoid the worst of it):
Suggested procedure for importing/converting citations from the French article
  1. Get the French long citation, and "ref name"
  2. Do we already have an English citation equivalent? (Check Black market in wartime France#Bibliography and Work sheet #2 (this page, at #Ref error resolution).
    • No:
      1. add it to Work sheet #2 linking their ref name (e.g., <ref name=":16">) to the sfn ({{sfn|Grenard|Mouré|2008}})
      2. translate the {{Ouvrage}}, {{Article}} or {{Lien web}}, either automatically, or your fave method, into one of our {{cite}} templates
      3. Paste a copy of the citation into Black market in wartime France#Bibliography in alphabetical order
      4. Refresh the /tip, that will pick up the new citation
    • Yes: continue
  3. copy or write the sfn for the citation, paste into the draft /translation in progress (/tip) at (all) the appropriate place(s)
If you follow some other method, the problem is, someone may come along later for another piece of the translation (which could be you, or someone else) and how are you going to remember that ":16" was "name="twenty-seven"? Maybe you will, maybe you won't. There will be tons of other inscrutable numbers, not just ":16", so it will be easy to get confused, even if you're the one doing it. If it's Elin, me, or someone else, there's virtually no chance anyone will figure out that ":16" = "twenty-seven" or what's going on, and the refs could end up in a tangle from which the only rescue is a rollback, and nobody wants that. So if you decide to carry on in the same way, that's a risk. At a bare minimum, track all your conversions and name changes in a transparent manner, and hopefully that won't be needed, and we can finish this translation.
Can you explain what you mean about "slow and intermittent"? The translator is instantaneous when invoked substed; if you mean AnomieBOT doesn't show up for an hour or two, that's true. If you have {{Ouvrage}} and want instant response, just replace that with the English template substed: {{subst:Cite book/French}} and it will happen instantly. Or do it the way you're most comfortable with. Mathglot (talk) 06:54, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like you're already doing at least some of that, I noticed the new worksheet entry, so that's good; thanks. Mathglot (talk) 08:31, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I never actually substed. That was probably why it was slow. scope_creepTalk 09:25, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Article condition[edit]

Morning @Elinruby: @Mathglot: What is the condition. Do you think this it is good enough to copy across to mainspace. I see there was some updates last night to fix some of my mistake. Can we copy across it today if possible. I'm not too worried about copyedits. A lot of the copyediting can be done prior to submitting it for peer review and I have several copyeditors I work with that can do a lot of that work. I'm more worried about translation errors at the moment. scope_creepTalk 09:25, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

it's ok. I just wondered if you were waiting on me. Most of what I changed was minor, and I had to go look at the French and then the source to be sure that ayup we really were talking about glove manufacturers. Mildly amazed that there are statistics on such a narrowl market segment.I stopped editing the draft because I noticed thst some of the references werent converted so I wasn't sure you were done, and then I had a couple of edit conflicts with Mathglot, who was doing references, which I consider higher priority since they throw errors.
Feel free. I am on something else right now and as usual, while I saw a few things, most of it was a matter of sounding better to my ear. This is a pretty subjective standard btw, so if you ever disagree with those changes, feel free to say so. I've been accused of sounding like an American newspaper, and there is some truth to that. Only criticism: "Gestapo francaise de la rue Lauriston" was a specific name for what en-wikipedia calls the Carlingue and Deep-L did something strange with the "de". It still needs what I call unFrenching, which is where I realize that there is a much more idiomatic way to say something, and sll my trsnslations always need a couple of rounds of that too. Let us know when you are done.Elinruby (talk) 10:27, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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