Talk:2012 Six Nations Championship

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Controversy section[edit]

Is the controversy really section needed? There was ice on the pitch, I see no conspiracy here, I suspect both teams wanted to play. As for the thinly-veiled insult, "What are we doing in a rugby stadium at 9pm on a Saturday night in February?", it's not uncommon for French games to be played that late, if the commentator didn't know that doesn't mean that it is a 'controversy' as such, it is just a sensationalistic piece of commentary. As for the other comment, "Disgruntled fans blamed Six Nations organisers and the French Rugby Federation (FFR) for the gaffe.", I don't know if we really want to go and start quoting fans, (the word Gaffe is not used in that quote). Even the Irish coach said it was the right decision, ""We had done our research before we came over - the Six Nations rules are that it's at the sole discretion of the referee. He had to make his call.
 "We walked the part of the pitch that he was concerned with and I understand why he made his call.
"I would be very disappointed for the supporters, I'd be disappointed for the players, but I'd be more disappointed if I was sitting in hospital with somebody who had a very bad injury." (France v Ireland will not happen this weekend) FFMG (talk) 18:01, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, so I will remove it then, there is no 'controversy', it was cold and the match was moved to another date, (and everybody official seems to accept it as a good decision). Nothing more than that. FFMG (talk) 04:11, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Italy Disqualified[edit]

Why does it say Italy are disqualified? Cos Eile 11 March 2012 11:10

It does not any more, it looks like it was a user, (Rubisco), doing some test edits. FFMG (talk) 11:14, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Section: Participants – City: Paris ( NOT St. Denis)[edit]

To the anon concerned, IP 137.138.79.38, please note:

  • The column heading reads, City. Therefore, for France, it correctly – since my edit this evening – reads, Paris. No more reverting, please! Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk) 20:49, 4 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Saint-Denis is a city in its own right. Stop changing it to Paris. – PeeJay 02:38, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Week by week Standings[edit]

Right, as per WP:BRD, before any version of the week by week standings can be reinstated, consensus must be reached here. A bold change (the introduction of the week by week standings) was made, this was then reverted (multiple times), so now we discuss. The table must NOT be reintroduced without consensus first being reached here.

I am very much against inclusion of any such table for the following reasons:

  • It is completely unnecessary - the 6N is based on final standings, week by week standings have no meaning.
  • It is unreferenced (a key requirement for inclusion is verifiability)
  • It is visually unappealing and may pose readability issues for some users (though this could be addressed)
  • It is too vague. Realistically a game by game or day by day, or even minute by minute of each match standings table could be generated. * There is no context for inclusion of such a table, and no precedent either. No such 'progressions' are included for any other event because, as per point 1, they are completely pointless.

So, before any version of this table is reinstated, consensus must be reached here.

2.221.217.56 (talk) 21:36, 7 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, from what I can see, it's been reinstated already! I don't think that it adds anything to the article - I've tried to come at this from the point of view of a casual reader who wants to find out about the tournament, and I can't see that it would be of much value to such a reader. So for me, it's oppose the inclusion of the week by week standings table. --Bcp67 (talk) 08:26, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

With regards to the week by week standings. It gives a insite to the progress of each nation in the compitition. Yes it's not massivly nessessery but is usful for reader to see the progress of each nation as each round passes. Forn example, some readers may want to know who was placed first in the table in thr first week. The week by week standings dose this. If you are worries about how appealing it is, then change how it looks rather than deleting it. Rugby.change (talk) 22:09, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You have no consensus to re-add this table, so please stop doing it. People can see the progress of each nation from their results lower down the page, so there is no need for a week-by-week update. Furthermore, in the case of games from one week being postponed until after the next week's matches have been played, how do you intend to account for that? Finally, the tournament is only five weeks long! The standings are either drastically different or largely the same every week, so the week-by-week table really tells the casual reader fuck all. – PeeJay 02:38, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@ Tom ("P-J"),
You are wrong. I am in agreement with the author of this table, Rugby.change, and fully support its inclusion.
 – Gareth Griffith-Jones – The WelshBuzzard – 10:00, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Regardless of your position - for which you have provided no reasoning, by the way - you and Rugby.change are still in the minority with regard to the addition of these tables. Please revert yourselves, ASAP. – PeeJay 08:35, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@PeeJay, who has just ended a 48 hrs block for edit-warring on this and related articles, and has returned today to revert once again, I say this:
"At Wikipedia, a consensus is not a poll, it is for you as the antagonist to provide an acceptable argument for other editors. Until then you must not continue to revert the status quo"
 – Gareth Griffith-Jones – The WelshBuzzard – 09:12, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Please, enlighten me, how do you define "status quo"? These tables were only added recently, by Rugby.change himself, not long enough ago for them to have redefined the status quo. Furthermore, where is that quote from? I hope you haven't just made it up to suit your purposes, because I distinctly remember WP:BRD saying something to the effect that the person who was "bold" in the first place, i.e. the person who wants to add these tables, should be the person to start the discussion and the burden is on them to prove why the info should be added. – PeeJay 17:39, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Seems to me there's an intransigent position here, arrived at by three decent editors who all make good contributions generally and who are acting in good faith in support of their own views on this. I've noticed that two of you have now been edit-blocked over this, which is a great shame. Can I suggest that one of you raises this on the talk page at WP:RU and try to get some sensible discussion from other editors of RU articles? Might be a better solution than continually reverting? --Bcp67 (talk) 20:56, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(come from Wikiproject Rugby union) If someone is willing to keep the table updated I don't see the harm in having it here. It is hardly obtrusive. I don't personally like the colouring (the England one looks like it was just forgotten about) so would support plain boxes. AIRcorn (talk) 22:47, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Not being obtrusive isn't really the issue here, it's that the table doesn't really add much to the article. If a team wins, chances are they'll be at the top most of the way through (or at least top 3), and if a team finishes bottom, they'll probably be bottom half the whole way through. If a team wins the tournament after a bad start, it's a bloody miracle, but it's not really something we need a week-by-week standings table to explain. – PeeJay 00:45, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
For me, it doesn't add anything to the total of knowledge in the article. If I took a look at, say, the 2004 Six Nations (picked totally at random) I personally wouldn't be interested in the progression of the placings through the event - nine years on, it doesn't seem to matter who was second after week three and there's enough info there for me to be able to work it out for myself if I want to. Likewise in 2021 I doubt anyone will really want to see how the teams progressed. The core of the article is the final table, an overview and the match details - anything beyond that is peripheral. Not fussed about the look of it. --Bcp67 (talk) 20:52, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As a compromise you could collapse it? AIRcorn (talk) 21:14, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Aircorn, a Collapsible table keeps the table on the article, but dosn't take to much away from the article for people who dislike it. Although this should only apply to previous tournaments (2011/2012). The current tournament, should have the table collapsible once it ends. Rugby.change (talk) 02:05, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Why is this still going on? The table should be deleted. It is ugly and pointless. It adds nothing to the article. All that matters is the final standings. week by week standings have no meaning or relevance. why would anyone even want to know the midway standings? they are not comparable as no two teams will have played the same opposition. Besides, the argument should not be why the table should be deleted, but why it should be included. so far no valid reasoning has been provided to support its inclusion. Get rid of it now! Prof IP (talk) 07:50, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

We have to move on. A compromise has been offered by the excellent solution from User:Aircorn!
I support your observation here, Rugby.change. Let's do that.
 – Gareth Griffith-Jones – The WelshBuzzard – 08:04, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Strongly disagree with don't just sweep problems under the carpet. We don't need this table per WP:ACCESS (albeit those issues could be sorted) and WP:NOTSTATSBOOK 11:53, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
OK, so now we have at least four users in opposition to this table, and a maximum of three in support. Furthermore, the opposition has provided guideline-based reasons for their opposition, whereas the supporters' argument is pretty much just founded on WP:ILIKEIT. Can we delete now? Yes. – PeeJay 00:12, 2 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Use of Week by week Standings[edit]

As the consensus is unclear lets have a simple straw poll. Please indicate why , so this doesn't turn into a vote

Support (please indicate preference for collapsed or not)[edit]

  1. - (Collapsed by default) –
     – Gareth Griffith-Jones |The Welsh Buzzard| 15:37, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    A straw poll or straw vote is a vote with nonbinding results. Robert's Rules of Order prohibits straw polls, calling them "meaningless and dilatory" because they subvert the deliberative charge of deliberative bodies.[1] Among political bodies, straw polls often are scheduled for events at which many people interested in the polling question can be expected to vote.
    Yes to all that Aircorn writes below –
     – Gareth Griffith-Jones |The Welsh Buzzard| 10:39, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Conditional support. It doesn't add a great deal, but neither do the substitution markings and the media table at the bottom. I can't see the harm in it either and if a couple of people find it useful and someone wants to go to the effort to add them then I don't really see the problem. As far as WP:NOTSTATSBOOK goes I don't think it quite meets the definition of excessive. However I really, really don't like the colour scheme and think the dates are a bit messy too. If it is collapsed by default and the colours are removed you can consider this a support, otherwise it is an oppose. AIRcorn (talk) 01:31, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
What do you suggest that could be done to the table. Do you suggest useing the {ru|} template for each country or a flag icon. Perhaps it could just simply have the countries name written in? Rugby.change (talk) 20:25, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, use the {{ru|WAL}} et cetera templates; so that neither the names of the countries nor the colouring of the boxes are required
and, ideally copy the layout of the table above it, so that the order is in the perpendicular rather than as it is now. Then the weeks will spread out horizontally→ → → and I should have thought that, Week 1, Week 2, ... is sufficient –
 – Gareth Griffith-Jones |The Welsh Buzzard| 20:58, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose[edit]

  1. Gnevin (talk) 15:31, 5 February 2013 (UTC) Per WP:NOTSTATSBOOK this information isn't relevant. No where do you see a week by week break down, also collapsing it isn't a compromise it's sweeping the problem under the carpet[reply]
  2. I agree with Gnevin. No one wins anything based on what the standings were after the first week either. – PeeJay 20:42, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Really? Two spring to mind last weekend: Calcutta Cup – England versus Scotland and Giuseppe Garibaldi Trophy – France versus Italy –
     – Gareth Griffith-Jones |The Welsh Buzzard| 10:45, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    No, you win the Calcutta Cup and the Garibaldi Trophy for winning those games, not for your position in the standings. Nice try. – PeeJay 15:10, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  3. delete delete delete delete delete. Get rid of it NOW. Don't collapse it. Don't reformat it. Just get rid of it. It is entirely meaningless and serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever. If someone wants to know who was third on the second week (no idea why anyone would want to know this) then they can figure it out for themselves using the scores detailed in the article. What if someone wanted to know who was second in the table at 15 minutes into the second game of the third weekend? Should we have a table documenting such standings too? No, of course not. Because such stats are entirely meaningless. The only result that counts is the final standings, lets not introduce unnecessary stats for the sake of it. No other media outlet sees the need to compile such tables, clearly demonstrating their complete lack of relevance. Removal of this table should be a simple decision lest wikipedia become a joke that compiles anything and everything with no editorial justification. Wikipedia has no page limit, but this is no reason to keep such a pointless table. Please, get rid of it. Prof IP (talk) 20:33, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I also still do not understand why it is thevremoval of he table that is being discussed. Per brd it should be the inclusion that mst be be justified, thus the table should be deleted until logical reasons for its inclusion can be provided. Prof IP (talk) 20:49, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I do believe that settles it. Let's delete it. – PeeJay 18:55, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I'd like to see more input Gnevin (talk) 11:51, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  4. I oppose it - I don't feel it adds anything of real value to the article. --Bcp67 (talk) 12:02, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Oppose - week by week standings serve no useful purpose. Hamish59 (talk) 12:08, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  6. I'm not a fan. I don't think it adds much and what happens to those championships where the teams don't play on a nice week-by-week basis. Recently (as in 'living memory') there was the foot and mouth issue, and the France-Ireland reschedule. Events like that would make the table useless. FruitMonkey (talk) 12:13, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Have we reached a consensus or not[edit]

Right. Have we reached a consensus or not? If we haven't, leave the table alone. It's been deleted and reverted again this afternoon and although I rarely get involved in debates or anything much involving pro-era RU, I'm losing the will to live with this argument. We need to find a final decision on this issue and stick by it. Until then, can we leave the table as it us. It's currently in the article so I suggest it stays there pending a rapid final conclusion. -- Bcp67 (talk) 15:16, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well said Bcp67. Just how I feel. Surprised that the author has not actually registered their !vote! but we can assume "Support" there.
He has followed my recommendations above fully today — and much of the earlier criticism has, in my view, been alleyed.
I still maintain that if on default it is hidden — what's the sweat? Leave it there! Cheers to all; not worth falling out over –
 – Gareth Griffith-Jones |The Welsh Buzzard| 15:30, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you Bcp67. I am getting tired with the constant deleting and reverting. As some people know, I was the author of the table and therefore give support towards keeping it. Up until today, people who had opposed it has edited the table to make it look better on the article. Some has even suggested improvements, so on that note, I would say to leave it be. After the 6 nations it will be collapsed by defult, like the 2012 and 2011 6 Nations. Rugby.change (talk) 15:38, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well, from what I can see we've got 3 editors in favour of retaining it and 6 against, but I'll leave you to decide if you think there's a consensus in favour. My point above is not to retain the table per se but to leave it alone until the final decision. --Bcp67 (talk) 15:43, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'd also suggest that if you're getting tired with the deleting and reverting, don't do it! --Bcp67 (talk) 15:45, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The con is very clearly in favour of remove Gnevin (talk) 16:13, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Why are you so exasperated with this tiny bone of contention? –
 – Gareth Griffith-Jones |The Welsh Buzzard| 16:27, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Is that directed at me ? Gnevin (talk) 16:29, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The answer is in the Edit summary box –
 – Gareth Griffith-Jones |The Welsh Buzzard| 16:32, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'd didn't indent as I didn't want it to be a part of the discussion above . Leaving message in the edit summary box and bold is all quite passive aggressive and I'm not exasperated, I just don't think this table has any place on Wiki Gnevin (talk) 16:42, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus?[edit]

OK, since yesterday the table has been deleted and reverted again. I appreciate that Rugby.change strongly believes that we need this table but we've had a long-running discussion on this, we've asked editors to come here and give their thoughts, which nine have done, and the whole balance of opinion is "against". I think it's time to say that there is indeed a consensus that a week-by-week standings table isn't required in the 2012 article, and by extension in the 2011 and 2013 articles. I know its essentially a trivial point, but the principle here is about discussion and coming to a conclusion. I accept that my own viewpoint on this is "against", but I can assure you I'd be saying the same thing of the majority of opinion was in opposition to my views. Can we delete this table from all three articles please and leave it out permanently. --Bcp67 (talk) 06:16, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It seems a shame that a new, enthusiastic, well-intentioned, young editor is !bullied! by a cabal of over-excited senior redactors.
The matter is now closed. –
 – Gareth Griffith-Jones |The Welsh Buzzard| 08:13, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There is no cabal and very little bullying here. Sometimes people disagree. This is part of Wikilife, I don't think too many editors who have been here for more than a year have got there way in every dispute. It still sucks when you are on the losing end, but at the end of the day it is best to simply accept it and move on. Plenty more stuff to edit. I hope you stick around Rugby.change as you are obviously keen on editing rugby related articles. AIRcorn (talk) 13:32, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Definitely no cabal here. We're all independent editors with our own minds - for example I find myself with some similar opinions to Hamish on this one, some different opinions to him on the subject of the importance of clubs. It happens, no big deal. I doubt there's any bullying either, just a willingness to sort out questions which are, in the great scheme of life, of no great importance, but which matter to us in our little corner of Wiki! --Bcp67 (talk) 14:36, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"Fair 'doos'" ... and when the dust settles we are good friends again, for it is all an amusement when all is said and done, isn't it?
 – Gareth Griffith-Jones – The WelshBuzzard19:55, 15 February 2013 (UTC) –[reply]

France's six nations games are played in Paris[edit]

The following is primarily addressed to PeeJay

Saint-Denis (French pronunciation: ​[sɛ̃.d(ə).ni]) is a commune in the northern suburbs of Paris, France. It is located 9.4 km (5.8 mi) from the centre of Paris. Saint-Denis is a subprefecture (French: sous-préfecture) of the department of Seine-Saint-Denis, being the seat of the arrondissement of Saint-Denis.

Saint-Denis is home to the royal necropolis of the Basilica of Saint Denis and was also the location of the associated abbey. It is also home to France's national stadium, the Stade de France, built for the 1998 FIFA World Cup.

Saint-Denis is a formerly industrial suburb currently reconverting its economic base. Inhabitants of Saint-Denis are called Dionysiens.

The column heading reads, City. Therefore, for France, it correctly – since my edit this morning – reads, Paris. No more reverting, please! PeeJay, who has just ended a 48 hrs block for edit-warring on this and related articles, has returned to revert once again this old chestnut. All media refer to Paris. It is confusing to our readers to substitute Saint Denis which is a suburb of Paris.
 – Gareth Griffith-Jones – The WelshBuzzard – 08:42, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Stade de France is commonly accepted to be in Saint-Denis, a separate commune from the city of Paris. I quote from the Stade de France article:

The Stade de France (French pronunciation: ​[stad də fʁɑ̃s]) is the national stadium of France, situated just north of Paris in the commune of Saint-Denis.

If it was in Paris, the article would say so. If the Saint-Denis article is claiming that it is merely a suburb of Paris, then it is wrong and must be changed. Furthermore, we have dozens of articles that refer to the Stade de France as being in Saint-Denis, not Paris. If it is ever mentioned as being in Paris, that is only for convenience rather than accuracy. – PeeJay 17:34, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Pee is quite right. Saint-Denis is not a part of Paris. The situation is different from, for example, London. Roughly, Paris = Central London, and London=Greater London=Île-de-France. You may say that Tottenham is in London, but Saint-Denis is not in Paris.
I think the problem is the word city, which means, er... nobody knows! Is it French commune (= Saint-Denis) or urban area (= suburb of Paris)? All french media refers to Saint-Denis. --El Caro (talk) 10:52, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks for that, El Caro. Unfortunately the entire British media always refer to "Paris"—therefore, I believe we should too.
 – Gareth Griffith-Jones – The WelshBuzzard – 12:20, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The British media "always" refer to Paris? That's patently not true. This ESPN article refers to Saint-Denis separately as a venue for Euro 2016, and a quick Google search reveals a lot of websites that refer to the Stade de France as being in "Saint-Denis, near Paris". Furthermore, we do not restrict ourselves to merely what appears in British media, or even English-language media for that matter. If enough sources from anywhere in the world refer to the Stade de France as being in Saint-Denis (which is not part of the city of Paris), then so should we. – PeeJay 12:47, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think we should write, in the table, "Saint-Denis (near Paris)": it's the exact "encyclopedic" location and not confusing to readers not aware of the geography of France. --El Caro (talk) 13:03, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It's not perfect, but it's better than just saying "Paris". – PeeJay 13:12, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Nota bene This discussion continues on another Talk page. Please refer to this thread
 – Gareth Griffith-Jones – The WelshBuzzard – 14:07, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Saint Denis is to Paris what Westiminister is to London. They are just districts in the city. There is no diffrence. Paris is more know so would be the appropriate city name to use. Rugby.change (talk) 02:23, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No it isn't. See the other threads. – PeeJay 02:40, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at this and the other thread I would go with Saint-Denis. We should always try to be as accurate as possible. The near Paris looks like an acceptable compromise, but I would still prefer simply Saint-Denis. People interested will click on the link and hopefully learn something like I have (which is what we are supposed to be all about). AIRcorn (talk) 06:10, 3 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

References[edit]

  1. ^ RONR (10th ed.) p. 415)

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