Talk:2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix
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Next race[edit]
When you click on next race it goes to something else. It should go to "Abu Dhabi Grand Prix", aa that's where the next race is..123.103.210.114 (talk) 08:40, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
- It goes to 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix which is currently a redirect to 2021 Formula One World Championship. The reason it redirects to that destination is because that is the page which provides the most amount of event relevant information (expected entrants, date etc.) So it is correct. SSSB (talk) 12:17, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
Saudi human rights record - comments relating to this race[edit]
@SSSB, I see you and I have different opinions about the relevance of Saudi Arabia's human rights records to sports in general and to Hamilton's specific comments just days before this race in particular. This is the first and only Saudi race so far. Hamilton's comments about Saudi's human rights came right before the race, not 1 month or 12 months or 2 years before. He may have also commented before, but the fact is that he commented right before this race. There is no other race in the history of F1 to which these comments pertain. Yes, there may be another race next year and by all means, it's possible that Saudi Arabia still has human rights issues then as well. But that hasn't yet happened. What do you think? ~~---- Cryout (talk) 01:26, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
- Also, full disclosure, I admire Hamilton for taking this position and feel bad that I am watching tomorrow's race. Yes, it will be very exciting and integral to this season of Formula 1, but while racing, watching, etc., we allow sports to normalize the Saudi state's actions against its own people and abroad. Cryout (talk) 01:29, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
- Hamilton has also spoken out earlier. I think he has also spoken out against Qatar, Bahrain and UAE.123.103.210.114 (talk) 08:26, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
- We don't "have different opinions about the relevance of Saudi Arabia's human rights records to sports in general and to Hamilton's specific comments just days before this race in particular." I've agreed they are relevant. The only place where we disagree is the articles to which they are relevant.
These objections are not about the 2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix, but about the Saudi Arabian Grand Prix in general - therefore reportings of these comments are not relevant to the former, only to the latter. Also, where and when he makes his objections are also irrelevant. If Hamilton had raised these concerns in Aug 2019 (when plans for a Saudi race were first made public (unofficially)) this doesn't impact the articles where general concerns about Saudi Arabia are relevant. Similary, if he had raised these concerns at the the first race after the plans were revealed, his comments wouldn't be relevant to that race report, or this race report. Similary, if he raised concerns about racing in the (ficitional, but this is an example) 2022 Chinese Grand Prix over the ongoing Peng Shuai "incident" at the 2021 Saudi Arabian GP, it wouldn't be relevant at Saudi Arabian Grand Prix, 2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix, but would be at 2022 Chinese Grand Prix, as these concerns are specific to that event.
Also, please refrain from making WP:FORUMy opinions about the race and Hamilton - let's keep on topic please.SSSB (talk) 09:33, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
- @SSSB, thanks for the clarifications. I will try to follow the policies. In this case, I remain convinced that Hamilton's comments are relevant to this race, and not just the GP overall. The timing of the comments is specific, and not random; Hamilton meant this specific race. Hamilton's words are well documented, and I don't need to do any research on my own. Crucially, the omission of the human rights information from the GP race page *is* a political act - it fits the goals of a specific political regime, which come down to silencing the conversation. The neutral thing to do is to add the relevant information, because omitting it is taking a political position. If more editors disagree with me, then I'll refrain from more edits. (if I don't see more comments, I will add the information again in a few days). Just to confirm, I understand your point about precedents with other races in countries that benefit from silencing such conversations. Cryout (talk) 17:30, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
Hamilton's comments are relevant to this race, and not just the GP overall.
- WP:PROVEIT. Find a source that suggest Hamilton's objection is 2021 specific.the omission of the human rights information from the GP race page *is* a political act
- no it's not. Becuase objections are not 2021 specific, and are therfore unjustified on a 2021 specific page. My comments in the next paragraph also covers this.The neutral thing to do is to add the relevant information, because omitting it is taking a political position.
- incorrect. We take a political position if we cover one point of view more than the other. By keeping the information off this page (and keeping it on Saudi Arabian Grand Prix where it belongs) we are remaining neutral. These revisions:- aren't neutral and are political because they only contain one point of view, that Formula One shouldn't race in Saudi Arabia.
if I don't see more comments, I will add the information again in a few days
- if we don't see any comments, the best result is to go to WP:DRN or start an WP:RfC.I understand your point about precedents with other races in countries that benefit from silencing such conversations.
- we aren't silencing anything. But the problem is we are governed by WP:DUE. The critism of races in China, or Azerbaijan on their human rights issues aren't discussed enough to warrant a mention on wiki. Nobody ever talks about them. SSSB (talk) 18:14, 5 December 2021 (UTC)- @SSSB, thank you for your clear point of view. It helps me further understand where you are coming from. The lack of comments from the Saudi point of view is taking a specific position. However, that doesn't mean that these issues aren't discussed much. Specific to WP:DUE, the omission seems to rest on "the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all", and the comments on human rights specifically around this race come from multiple racers and multiple organizations. Here is another example that is specific to this year's Saudi race, although it's also relevant to the Saudi GP in general: Sebastian Vettel organised women-only kart race in Saudi Arabia (ESPN, but also Motorsport Magazin and others): "Sebastian Vettel organised a karting event for women in Saudi Arabia this week ahead of the country's first Formula One race. The Saudi Arabian Grand Prix will take place in Jeddah on Sunday against a backdrop of accusations of "sportswashing" by human rights groups." Cryout (talk) 19:19, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
- @Cryout: you misunderstood my WP:DUE point. WP:DUE doesn't impact Saudi, but it does impact the
precedents with other races
you talked about.With regards to the sources you cited: Vettel's event for woman racers is 2021 specific, the bit you bolded isn't relevant to 2021 specifically, because the sportswashing criticism has been present since Saudi was first proposed, when we thought it wouldn't be till 2023.[1] As the criticism didn't change when we found out it would be in 2021, I don't see how you can claim it is 2021 specific, I'd appreciate if you could clarify this point.
However, I have a potential compromise.
I would be happy to include Hamilton's comment if we take the same approach as the ESPN article. I.e. the main focus should be Vettel's event, possibly Ham's helmet and use Hamilton's (what you believe to be 2021 specific, and I don't) comments to back this up. SSSB (talk) 00:07, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
- @SSSB, I do appreciate the compromise. And I also realize that I need to propose more-specific edits, because I am not clarifying where the limit is of adding the same information to multiple articles. Peng Shuai is a case in point - I heard 9 WTA China tournaments may be cancelled; and I believe that each one of those deserves the same explanation why; however, I am not ready to argue that Peng Shuai's missing from all other tournaments during the year should explained in each of those other tournaments' articles. I need to think a bit more. Cryout (talk) 04:38, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
- @Cryout: - I'm confused. Are you rejecting my proposal?
If yes, can I ask for clarification as to why? Because (as far as I can tell) I am letting you include the content you want (Ham's comments) and I'm actively proposing the addition of additional criticism on top of this (as well as defence, which is non-negotionable, which I think you acknowledge, if I interpreted your previous comments correctly?). SSSB (talk) 08:33, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
- @Cryout: - I'm confused. Are you rejecting my proposal?
- @SSSB, I do appreciate the compromise. And I also realize that I need to propose more-specific edits, because I am not clarifying where the limit is of adding the same information to multiple articles. Peng Shuai is a case in point - I heard 9 WTA China tournaments may be cancelled; and I believe that each one of those deserves the same explanation why; however, I am not ready to argue that Peng Shuai's missing from all other tournaments during the year should explained in each of those other tournaments' articles. I need to think a bit more. Cryout (talk) 04:38, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
- @Cryout: you misunderstood my WP:DUE point. WP:DUE doesn't impact Saudi, but it does impact the
- @SSSB, thank you for your clear point of view. It helps me further understand where you are coming from. The lack of comments from the Saudi point of view is taking a specific position. However, that doesn't mean that these issues aren't discussed much. Specific to WP:DUE, the omission seems to rest on "the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all", and the comments on human rights specifically around this race come from multiple racers and multiple organizations. Here is another example that is specific to this year's Saudi race, although it's also relevant to the Saudi GP in general: Sebastian Vettel organised women-only kart race in Saudi Arabia (ESPN, but also Motorsport Magazin and others): "Sebastian Vettel organised a karting event for women in Saudi Arabia this week ahead of the country's first Formula One race. The Saudi Arabian Grand Prix will take place in Jeddah on Sunday against a backdrop of accusations of "sportswashing" by human rights groups." Cryout (talk) 19:19, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
- @SSSB, thanks for the clarifications. I will try to follow the policies. In this case, I remain convinced that Hamilton's comments are relevant to this race, and not just the GP overall. The timing of the comments is specific, and not random; Hamilton meant this specific race. Hamilton's words are well documented, and I don't need to do any research on my own. Crucially, the omission of the human rights information from the GP race page *is* a political act - it fits the goals of a specific political regime, which come down to silencing the conversation. The neutral thing to do is to add the relevant information, because omitting it is taking a political position. If more editors disagree with me, then I'll refrain from more edits. (if I don't see more comments, I will add the information again in a few days). Just to confirm, I understand your point about precedents with other races in countries that benefit from silencing such conversations. Cryout (talk) 17:30, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
- We don't "have different opinions about the relevance of Saudi Arabia's human rights records to sports in general and to Hamilton's specific comments just days before this race in particular." I've agreed they are relevant. The only place where we disagree is the articles to which they are relevant.
- Hamilton has also spoken out earlier. I think he has also spoken out against Qatar, Bahrain and UAE.123.103.210.114 (talk) 08:26, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
Tense of article[edit]
In the Background section, consider changing "and a minute's silence is planned for approximately one hour before the start of the race." to and a minute's silence was held approximately one hour before the start of the race." (or more accurately if appropriate) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.185.152.204 (talk) 06:47, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
- I've updated the tense, albeit with slightly different wording than proposed (Special:Diff/1058906613) SSSB (talk) 08:35, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
Lap 37 incident[edit]
I was shown in the telemetary and set out by the stewardsthat verstappen had deliberatly brake checked hamilton whilst pulling to the middle of the track. This article reads with hamilton failing to avoid verstappen when he slowed. This was a highly contentious moment and should read true. 86.10.160.160 (talk) 08:49, 13 August 2023 (UTC)