Talk:Adagio for Strings/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Why?

Why is their no mention of this article on the main Samuel Barber page? I don't know enough of his music to add it in, but if he's known almost exclusively for this piece, then shouldn't it be on his page?
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.53.200.80 (talk) 06:08, 1 September 2006

Sorry, that was me before. --Phant 06:09, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Citation required?

The popularity and influence section has a lot of {{Fact|...}} tags, but I don't think they are really necessary. Perhaps someone should take a look at WP:CITE and WP:WHEN and then decide if those statements flagged with {{Fact|...}} are really "contentious", "counter-intuitive", or "... likely to be challenged". In my view - though I'm no expert here - most, if not all, statments flagged {{Fact|...}} in this section are "general..." or "subject-specific common knowledge". Astronaut 09:32, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Musica Sacra

I Wanna know, is Adagio for Strings is Musica Sacra? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.70.55.163 (talk) 10:14, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Not originally. It was just a string quartet slow movement that gained popularity when orchestrated for string orchestra. Similar to Tchaikovsky's "Andante cantabile" from his first quartet. Thirty years later, Barber did re-use the music for a choral setting of the Agnes Dei, though. All this in in the article.DavidRF (talk) 22:01, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

(Quality of the work)

The first 4 edits on this talk page were appropriately removed as off-topic in the fifth edit (in May 2006).--Jerzy•t 04:08 & 06:18, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Homeworld

We have an article on the computer game Homeworld. And Barber reworked the second movement of his instrumental work Adagio for Strings as his choral work Agnus Dei, no doubt using as lyrics the wording of the "Agnus Dei" ("Lamb of God") portion of the Roman Catholic mass.
--Jerzy•t 06:18, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Video

Added a link to a clip on Google Video showing the intro to Homeworld as previously mentioned; this may be a little off topic, but I feel that, as stated, it shows how powerful the song can be. I only wish I could get a more concise clip that only displayed the scene itself, rather than the scene following the introduction. --Kalthuras 10/19/06 —Preceding undated comment added 04:20(2 edits), 19 October 2006.

I agree that it's off topic! Why not add the assessment (referenced!) of its emotional power to the video game's article? Also it says there that the music is Agnus Dei rather Adagio for Strings. --RobertG ♬ talk 08:38, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
I feel as though putting it in the video game article, warranted as it is, is focusing more on the game itself and not on the song's effect on the player. If I were to read the Homeworld page, I would be reading to learn about the game; reading this article, I would like to see where it was used and what the effect was. On another note; Although the song is technically Agnus Dei, the choral arrangement for the piece, it is credited on the Homeworld Soundtrack disc as "Adagio for Strings". I'm assuming that they did this because the song is widely referred to as such, and the name Agnus Dei is more commonly used in situations where such specifics are necessary, such as purchasing the sheets for the piece for a choir, or at a professional performance where minute specifics are absolutely necessary. User:Kalthuras:Kalthuras
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Kalthuras (talk • contribs) 09:44 &09:50, 19 October 2006
Although on further inspection, having said video in the references works as well for anyone seeking the exposition of visual and audio. --Kalthuras 10/19/06
—Preceding undated comment added 09:50,19 October 2006.
It's not offtopic, I came to this link trying to find the name of the homeworld song. I'm sure there are many people trying to do the same. Don't hide that information. It's relevant and not offtopic.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.39.124.241 (talk) 22:30, 7 August 2007

Minor Inclusion to Agnus Dei in video game

If I remembered correctly, Agnus Dei is also the (very dramatic and mournful) background music during Homeworld's last mission, besides the third and first mission as mentioned in the article.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.80.200.39 (talk) 05:31, 5 January 2007

New Article

Alright, as I understand it, the popular culture media trivia was removed to a new page due to it's large content, and now we're seeing the same information re-added... any way of making this new page more prominent? Going to remove the references that are already mentioned elsewhere for now, feel free to re-add them if deemed appropriate... also, sorry for editing this comment three times, I have to use the preview more often.
Kalthuras 02:38, :39, & :42, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Scarface

Does anyone know where In the movie Scarface this piece is played?
Nscarfs 03:19 & :20, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Tiësto

We have articles on Tiësto, a Dutch DJ who remixed the work described, and Adagio for Strings (Tiësto). Should we move the following subsections to talk:Adagio for Strings (Tiësto) (with note saying that they originated here, and their edit history remains here, linking back to this talk page)?
--Jerzy•t 06:18, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

no mention of tiesto's "cover"?

it seems worth mentioning
-- Cannibalicious!—Preceding undated comment added 19:47, 8 August 2007.

I agree Dj's tiesto adagio for strings remix should be mentioning in the article
84.39.93.7 (talk) 20:27, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Definitely
83.84.137.201 (talk) 17:39, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Why? Gavin
(talk) 21:14, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Greatest trance remix of all time?

I doubt you'll find much evidence backing this up, it's not even a particularly liked song amongst trance fans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.110.25.66 (talk) 00:10, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

It cannont be the GREATEST but it's particularly important and known song it should be worth mention. Many visitors will come to this article because of tiesto. I'm a trance fan and I don't known nothing about classic music. I started to listen classics because of this song. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.39.93.7 (talk) 20:36, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Discrepancy

This article states that the Tiesto single topped the UK charts at #4 but the page for the song itself state #37 or there about. Which is correct? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.83.237.151 (talk) 03:09, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

WJEC Quote

I find it odd that a paragraph about this work from the WJEC Handbook for GCSE students has been included - this is hardly worthy of the critical reception section of the article. It doesn't add to my understanding of how the piece has been received over the last century. Surely it would be better for one to do some research into what academics, journalists, and other notable musicians have said about the piece. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.195.191.50 (talk) 02:01, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

GA Review

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Adagio for Strings/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Nikkimaria (talk) 03:51, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Hello! I will be reviewing this article for GA status. My review should be posted within the next few days. Cheers, Nikkimaria (talk) 03:51, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately I feel this article is not yet at GA standard. Feel free to renominate once the below concerns have been addressed. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:34, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Writing and formatting

  • "Barber has turned down many arrangements published by G. Schirmer" - unclear. Do you mean he has rejected or repudiated them?
  • "with Alexander J. Morin wrote that Adagio for Strings contains "full of pathos..." - grammar
  • Italian terms should generally be italicized
  • "who evaded an invitation from the conductor" - meaning is unclear. What invitation? To do what?
  • "thus being the first Adagio performance in both continents" - grammar
  • Be consistent in whether the title is italicized or not
  • "The arrangement was sent sent to Barber" - grammar
  • "The song's contour is melodic melodic" - grammar
  • "The pieces' melody" - grammar
  • Needs a general copy-edit for grammar and clarity
  • Avoid repetitious phrasings
  • "Journalist Tim Smith considered it to be one of the most beloved pieces in gaging Brandenburg Concertos" - what does this mean?
  • "Toscanini's composing was recorded at 8H Studio for radio broadcasting" - do you mean his conducting?

Accuracy and verifiability

  • Do lower strings come in on the second beat or two beats after the violins?
  • "It is disputed whether the first performance of Adagio in Europe was conducted by Toscanini or Henry J. Wood." - not supported by the article text
  • "At practical tempo" - vague and unsourced
  • "Barber has turned down many arrangements published by G. Schirmer, such as the organ arrangement by William Strictland" - not supported by the article, which actually says that Barber asked Strictland to compose an arrangement
  • "The conductor returned the score without comment, which annoyed Barber, who evaded an invitation from the conductor. Toscanini then sent word through Menotti that he was planning to perform the piece and had returned it simply because he had already memorized it" - not supported by source
  • "his partner Gian Carlo Menotti" - though it is implied, the source does not specifically support this assertion
  • "In an edition of A conductor's analysis of selected works, John William Mueller devoted over 20 pages to Adagio for Strings. Wayne Clifford Wentzel, author of Samuel Barber: A Research and Information Guide (Composer Resource Manuals), said that it was a piece usually selected for a closing act because it was moderately famous" - need bibliographic details for both books (in references)
  • Use a consistent reference format
  • Ref 3: author? Publisher?
  • Ref 7: provide bibliographic details for the book, including page number
  • ref 11, 14, 19: page?
  • Ref 22, 23: retrieval date?

Broad

  • "A concert program from London, England, however, cites that the first performance of the Essay for Orchestra (another work of Barber's) was conducted by Henry J. Wood on August 24, 1939" - okay, but why is this relevant? You did not argue that Toscanini conducted the first Barber performance in Europe, but the first Adagio performance
  • In general, more depth of information is required. The article could reasonably be half again as long
  • Missing discussion of the modernist aspect - what makes this piece a modernist work?

Neutrality

  • Need more information on early criticism of the work - a quote would be helpful

Stability

No issues noted

Images

  • Sound clip is lacking appropriate fair-use rationale for this article

Repetition

Many sections in the article repeat themselves! Oboistru (talk) 19:03, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Agnus Dei (Barber)

Editor Gerda Arendt left this message on my user talk page after I made an edit that changed the font of the words Agnus Dei from bold italic to italic. I've moved it here where I think it more properly belongs because using my user talk page necessarily prevents other editors from participating in the conversation should they so desire.


Bold text is, to me, akin to shouting in caps and should be avoided unless it is absolutely necessary. In this case, Editor Gerda Arendt argues that because Agnus Dei (Barber) redirects to Adagio for Strings, the text "Agnus Dei" should be bolded. That change was made. I undid the change because even though Agnus Dei (Barber) redirects to Adagio, the two are not synonymous - MOS:BOLDTITLE specifies bold text for synonyms but is mute about redirects. In Editor Gerda Arendt's example, the bold names in the lede are clearly synonyms for Liebfrauenkirche, Halle and so, in accordance with MOS:BOLDTITLE, should have a bold font.

Barber's Agnus Dei is a derived from the Adagio which is derived from the Quartet. One article doesn't suffice for all because because the very act of deriving one from another creates a new and different entity.

When I first edited that one-sentence paragraph in the lede, I was very tempted to delete the whole paragraph because the paragraph's single sentence changes horse mid-stride. Somehow we go from Barber rejecting arrangements of the Adagio by others to discussion of his own setting of the Adagio for the Agnus Dei. But, I left it standing with the addition of the {{cn}} template and changed the wikilink to Agnus Dei (music). There is no mention of the Agnus Dei in the article except this sentence fragment in the lede and a comment that it can be heard in a video game.

I suspect that the best solution to this issue is to create stub articles for the Quartet and for the Agnus Dei and let those who know create useful articles from those stubs.

--Trappist the monk (talk) 20:17, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

I suggest to treat the piece and the others derived from it in one article to avoid repetition, in the same way Bach cantatas BWV 120, 120a and 120b are treated in one article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:17, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
I think that I am not persuaded. It would seem that the BWV 120 article doesn't fully comply with your suggestion. That article does include the three cantatas, but not the Mass in B minor - the Credo is derived from part of the second movement of BWV 120. For consistency, should we not apply this rule to all articles? So, for example, any film derived from a book should share its article with the book - consider Les Misérables, the book, the musical, the numerous films, as a rather extreme case. Repetition and duplication is problematic but to some extent it is unavoidable and at the same time necessary.
--Trappist the monk (talk) 15:28, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Essay for Orchestra - relevance?

Toscanini took Adagio for Strings on tour to South America and Europe, thus giving the first Adagio performances in both continents. A concert program from London, England, however, cites that the first performance of the Essay for Orchestra (another work of Barber's) was conducted by Henry Wood on August 24, 1939.

I am struggling to see the relevance of the second sentence to this article. What has the Essay for Orchestra got to do with the Adagio for Strings? -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 11:32, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
No responses, so I've removed the offending sentence. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 20:41, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Accuracy and verifiability issues

I own the Schirmer edition of the score for this. The article states that the piece uses the time signatures 4/4 and 6/4. According to the Schirmer edition, the piece is mostly in 4/2, with occasional use of 5/2 and 6/2, and one measure in 3/2.

Also, regarding the entrance of the lower strings, they come in on the third beat of the first measure, keeping in mind that in this meter, a beat is a minim rather than a crochet, i.e., a half rather than a quarter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.67.4.155 (talk) 17:35, 29 January 2011 (UTC)


I concur, every score I can find online, both full and pre-purchase previews, have 4/2 being the predominant meter. Definitely needs to be rectified. Mezmorizorz (talk) 12:41, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Also, how do you indent on wikipedia? Tab did nothing, and adding a space just made a box around my post. Sorry about all of the edits I did in this talk page trying to format my comment better; I've never done this before. Mezmorizorz (talk) 12:49, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Armin Van Buuren

The article states that Armin has covered it. I'm pretty sure that never happened, plus I can't find any mention of it on his website's discography or on discogs.com.46.208.25.214 (talk) 21:38, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Conductor of first European performance

Since 20 October 2010 we've had a statement that there's a dispute over whether Toscanini or Henry Wood has the honours. It's been fact-tagged since 23 October 2010 (GA Review).

The editor who added the original statement is now all but retired from Wikipedia (only one edit in the past 15 months). I've done some googling in an effort to get some cites, but nothing's coming up.

What I have established is that the first Proms performance was on 4 August 1945, but conducted by Sir Adrian Boult. If Wood conducted it earlier, it must have been extra-Proms, and possibly on continental Europe. But without any cites, we’re just whistling in the wind.

My preference is simply to delete the offending sentence. It is now all over the internet, parroted mindlessly. -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 01:08, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Agree; and it doesn't seem to be lead-material. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:56, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

New section or page with list of appearances ?

The current section Popularity and influence tends to be messy as the time goes. So, my proposal is to create the new section (or page) with list of appearances of this theme. And in Popularity and influence section leave only a few important facts. Pavel Modilaynen (talk) 19:09, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

  • That's probably overkill, IMO. We just need to be diligent to prevent too much trivia from accumulating; we don't need an exhaustive list of every occurrence of the theme, especially given how often it is used. Eusebeus (talk) 19:44, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
  • It is being incorrectly stated that this was played "to commemorate the fatal crash of Georgian luger Nodar Kumaritashvili" at the opening ceremonies of the 2010 Winter Olympics. This is not correct. A moment of Silence was given in memory or Nodar Kumaritashvili later in the ceremony. The playing of Adagio for Strings was done as part of the second segment about Canada entitled "The Sacred Grove" which was about the Pacific Coastal region of Canada. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.14.201.104 (talk) 14:28, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
If you can support your position with a proper reference (see WP:RS), please do so. Until then, the change you've made to the article has little value because other readers/editors can't verify what you have written. I will be reverting your edit.
—Trappist the monk (talk) 15:05, 11 January 2014 (UTC)at
I don't know exactly how to do that. I have just watched the Opening Ceremony on a DVD that I purchased from the CTV television network, and I assure you that I am correct. Read the article on the Opening Ceremonies of the 2010 Winter Olympics - that confirms what I am saying too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.14.201.104
I haven't looked for sources to confirm 74.14.201.104's assertion, but I did inspect the current source. The German "newspaper" (intentional scare quotes) Bild is not exactly a reliable source – it's one of the worst examples of yellow press one could possibly find. Moreover, even they write "it was almost as if it was being performed especially for Nodar Kumaritashvili", which in my mind means, it wasn't. I suggest to restore the IP's edit and possibly mark it with {{Citation needed}}. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 15:34, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
No objections to that. Better, would be, I think, to get out your can of anti-trivia spray and give the whole section a liberal dosing.
—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:06, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Key

The article Phrygian mode claims that the Adagio for Strings is in a Phrygian key. This article says it's minor (which I think usually implies a base of Aeolian). Which is correct? Hairy Dude (talk) 23:30, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Nothing About Platoon?

The 1986 film, Platoon, makes extensive use of this piece throughout the film, and could be argued to be a cultural touchstone. It is often that watching this film is the first time many people have heard this piece. The article on the film itself makes mention of this piece as well, so it's certainly not like anyone didn't know about it.2600:1700:1880:411F:D175:F867:24AC:2CFF (talk) 07:32, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

The question is one of sources. Do sources show that the film somehow had a significant impact on the song?
My touchstone for this issue is Richard Nixon. Nixon is mentioned/discussed in thousands of articles, of course, but I'm looking at popular culture. Nixon is part of and/or referenced in the opera Nixon in China, the song "Ohio", the album "Madman Across the Water", the book/film All the President's Men, the film Dick, the TV series Futurama and countless others. Articles on these Grammy/Tony/Pulitzer/Oscar-winning subjects all discuss Nixon. Obviously, Nixon had an impact on the song "Ohio", for example.
However, none of these works are mentioned in Richard Nixon. The character of Richard Nixon's head, for example, did not have an impact on Nixon.
The counterpoint is Chevy Chase's impression of Gerald Ford on Saturday Night Live. In addition to being mentioned in articles on Chase and SNL, it is also discussed in Gerald Ford. Why the difference? Did SNL impact Ford? Yes, the New York Times cites Ford discussing how the impression impacted his reelection campaign.
So that's the question: Do sources about the film substantially discuss the song? If so, the song likely should be discussed in the film's article. Do sources about the song substantially discuss the film? If so, the film likely should be discussed in the song's article. - SummerPhDv2.0 23:38, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

Interesting point. So in this rationale, the reference to the movie Platoon in the Samuel Barber main page should, at all cost, be removed since Barber died in 1981 and the movie was first projected in 1986 and therefore it makes it impossible for anything related to the movie Platoon to have had any impact on the man. And as debated by user SummerPhDv2.0, there is serious RS research needed to prove a measurable influence of the film score on this Adagios popularity, increased sales or other significant reported impact. This seems reasonable in order to add substantial value to the present article. Note: I did discover this Adagio by watching Platoon and it did make me buy the soundtrack at the time. Melt 02:44, 6 April 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by PandemoniumMeltDown (talk • contribs)

If I said "at all costs", I was wrong. I didn't say that.
No one can have an impact on Richard Nixon, he's dead. Someone could have an impact on Richard Nixon, it's a topic. Someone could uncover documents showing something previously unknown about him and publish. Richard Nixon would not be impacted in any way (he'd still be dead), but Richard Nixon (the topic) would be changed.
Yes, there are lots of things in the movie: Oliver Stone, Denzel Washington, cameo appearance, the Philippines and a hundred other things. Platoon discusses them. Of those, the film is meaningful only to Oliver Stone.
People have "discovered" the song through various films, TV shows, community orchestras, mom's record collection, etc. Some of them might be a meaningful part of the song, its notoriety, its popularity, its history. Sources about the song, its notoriety, its popularity, its history will discuss them. Those that are not meaningful to the song won't be discussed.
If the film is significant to the song, sources about the song will discuss it. If they don't, it isn't. - SummerPhDv2.0 15:51, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
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