Talk:Adam Yauch/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Spouse and child

I'm surprised his wife and child aren't on this wiki entry...

In May of 1998, he married the American born Tibetan Dechen Wangdu and they have together produced a daughter named Tenzin.

IMDb Mini Biography By: Robb Hand http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0946888/bio

Someone who isn't as lazy as myself should add it. -S —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.13.37.147 (talk) 18:45, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Middle East

I have again removed the statement:

Despite his activism however, he has remained largely silent on the Palestinian-Israeli issue.

It is inflamatory and irrelevant. as far as the article is concerned, it doesn't matter in the least that Adam Yauch has remained largely silent on one particular issue, even if he is an activist. If someone notable has criticized him publicly for such and you can cite that, perhaps it would warrant an entry; otherwise, it's a non-issue.

thanks --Heah [[User_talk:Heah|(talk)]] 07:22, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Isn't his last name pronouced to rhyme (assonantly) with "stout"? spikey 19:21, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Birthdate.

Yauch's birthday is August 5, not 15. See e.g. [1]. I know because he's exactly ten years older than me.  : ) dbtfztalk 23:02, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Videography

I'm not sure this section belongs here, unless it can be referenced with decent sources. At the moment is takes up nearly 50% of the article. Can we do something with it? --John (talk) 18:22, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Why does the article say that he did not appear in any music videos for Hot Sauce Part II when he directed a video for it, as mentioned here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/(You_Gotta)_Fight_for_Your_Right_(To_Party!)#Fight_for_Your_Right_Revisited 108.49.47.223 (talk) 21:25, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Well, directing isn't the same as appearing, but I believe the three of them did appear briefly at the end of Fight For Your Right Revisited as NYC policemen. Although FFYRR wasn't exactly a music video per se, it may be worth clarifying. --Bongwarrior (talk) 23:09, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Query

Shouldn't "death" have it's own heading on his wiki page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.44.253.129 (talk) 22:08, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but no one had gotten around to it yet. I've added the section. --Bongwarrior (talk) 22:48, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Career start date

Found cite that the first Beastie Boys show was in fact on his 17th birthday (in 1981), so I guess that's a reasonable date for him to become "active". However, I do note that the Beastie Boys article says he founded the band, whereas the last.fm profile says the Beastie Boys started in 1979, and he joined in 81. Some weird date discrepancies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zooberman (talk • contribs) 05:00, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

He was also born in 1964, not 1965. See above imdb link. I know because we're exactly the same age. :) --Ivan Zero (talk) 01:43, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

ALSO, it is surprising that Adam horowitz is not mentioned as joining the band in 1983, or that Kate s. went on to start Luscious Jackson. I would add this but the site is closed on account of his death. R.I.P. MCA — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.111.147.44 (talk) 01:07, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Those items seem more relevant to the Beastie Boys article than to this one. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:12, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Memorial for Adam Yauch

Could you give me permission to add some photos of my memorial to Adam? It was featured in the New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/06/nyregion/east-village-and-lower-east-side-celebrate-life-of-adam-yauch.html and local East Village Blog http://evgrieve.com/2012/05/remembering-adam-yauch-in-east-village.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shawnchittle (talk • contribs) 23:05, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Nathanial or Nathaniel

Both Nathanial and Nathaniel Hörnblowér have a similar number of hits in a Google search. Should the alternate spelling be mentioned? Is there an authoritative source? —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 00:29, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 5 May 2012

Don't mention Good Charlotte, Yauch would be spinning in his grave. Awful.

Grahamwalter91 (talk) 01:56, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

They're a major band whose lead singer has emphasised BBs as one of his major influences. Whether they're awful is irrelevant. --GenericBob (talk) 02:32, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
Yes, they maybe a major band who were influenced by the Beastie Boys, but for an encyclopedia they're opinion has no value. Same should be said for Ben Stiller and others who tweeted about his death, it doesn't apply to Adam Yauch's profile. That might sound cruel, but tweets on Adam Yauch's death aren't that relevant to his profile page. If people want to know what Good Charolette's opinion of MCA, they can look it up on google, it shouldn't apply to wikipedia.

That being said, RIP MCA (talk) 03:20, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

WP coverage of artists very often includes information about their influence on others, because that influence is part of their notability - see e.g. David_Bowie#Legacy, Beatles#Legacy, Robert_Johnson#Legacy, Sex_Pistols#Legacy, Leadbelly#Legacy (which could do with serious expansion), Woody Guthrie#Musical_legacy, Elvis_Presley#Legacy, Bob_Dylan#Legacy and many more. I agree that the Ben Stiller tweet doesn't seem notable in that light, but the edit request wasn't about the Stiller tweet. The GC cite is notable because it makes a strong statement about influence on a major band. --GenericBob (talk) 04:49, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
Can we split the difference and agree that, while it may be proper to acknowledge the artist's influence, if we're cherry picking a select handful of those artists the wiki entry might be better served to highlight artists who were clearly influenced by the wiki entry in question? Of all the people citing the Beastie Boys as an influence on Twitter in the last 24 hours, Good Charlotte have to be one of the more dubious, major artist or no. My point being that of a mere three bands mentioned, having one of those be a band that exhibits no overt influence comes off as a vanity inclusion by a fan of Good Charlotte rather than an objective selection. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Julrey (talk • contribs) 17:27, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
Works for me, if there are bands that are more notable and/or more clearly influenced by BB and we can provide appropriate cites. I just don't want to see it done on the basis of "not those guys, they suck", because that only leads to interminable fanwars. --GenericBob (talk) 02:10, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Kid Rock wrote a very touching RIP post here. He wrote that he is forever indebted to MCA: http://www.kidrock.com/news/rip-mca-137801. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ededdede (talk • contribs) 04:38, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. A discussion already appears to be starting above. elektrikSHOOS (talk) 04:58, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Quick fact check

Under Illness and Death subsection: "He was unable to appear in music videos for [Hot Sauce Committee Part 2]"

This is a video for this album with Yauch; appearance at 23:20, credited at 25:13: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evA-R9OS-Vo The sources claim this to be true as well.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.67.115.33 (talk) 05:32, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Pronunciation of 'Yauch'

if it's German (what I suppose, see German TV presenter Günther Jauch), it should be pronounced Yowkh. --El bes (talk) 02:09, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
"Yowk" is the pronunciation given in the lead, "ow" as in "cow". But the BBC is pronouncing it more as spelt, "Yawtch". So that's wrong? Rothorpe (talk) 01:53, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Adam Yauch was Jewish

I do not understand why this continues to be edited out. I can't find any BLP clauses that suggest one must explicitly self-identify as part of an ethnic group in order for it to be part of the article See WP:CATEGRS. Yauch has a Jewish mother, therefore he is Jewish. See Who is a Jew? Beastie Boys have been recognized as a "trio of Jewish kids", and Forbes. Not sure if this is an RS, probably not. I believe there is enough evidence to support the category American Jews. Thoughts? WikifanBe nice 22:46, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

"Categories regarding religious beliefs or sexual orientation should not be used unless the subject has publicly self-identified with the belief or orientation in question." Being Jewish is not necessarily a "religious" belief. He is Jewish by virtue of his mother being Jewish. Reliable sources have recognized the Beastie Boys as a band of "Jewish kids." WikifanBe nice 00:49, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

I've re-added the category. Jewish is much more than a religion and if his mother is/was Jewish then he is as well. Many Jews are not raised as practicing Jews or are non-religious but they are still Jews and identify as such. Night Ranger (talk) 02:42, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
I've also added multiple sources. Night Ranger (talk) 02:54, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

I think the section "Jews who have practiced another faith" is particularly relevant in describing the lack of consensus on this subject. The word has "cultural, religious, genealogical, and personal dimensions" and you can't just use it as a blanket description without context. As someone who was raised in a (reform) Jewish environment, whose mother was not Jewish, I'm particularly sensitive to others who want to categorize me as "not a Jew". It's up to me to decide how I want to identify – nobody else. I imagine the same is felt by those of Jewish heritage who do not identify as Jews.

I'm sure "reliable sources" calling them a "group of Jewish kids" is hardly authoritative, nor is it meant to be, if you were to ask those sources. Its simply meant to describe the ironic contrast between the sterotypical "Jewish kid" and "hip hop artist" – certainly not encyclopedic.

If there really must be a category American Jews, the question then becomes "what is its purpose?". Is it to identify important and influential Jews, or simply to list whose mother was Jewish (which should send a chill down your spine)? It had better be the former. Not knowing him personally, and based on the information that he was a practicing Buddhist, I vote "no" on the category tag for this article. —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 05:32, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Reliable, third party sources exist asserting that Yauch is in fact Jewish. He didn't convert out of Judaism to Buddhism as there isn't any evidence that he practiced Judaism. The fact that his mother is Jewish makes him Jewish. Unless a source exists that shows Yauch specifically defining himself as a non-Jewish person there is no reason to not include the category in my opinion. WikifanBe nice 05:57, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
Other than WP:BLPCAT of course. --John (talk) 08:16, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
I've copied and pasted BLPCAT verbatim, what part do you believe suggests Yauch is not in fact a Jew when all sources point otherwise? John - you must realize that a strong minority of Americans classified as Jews on wikipedia do not practice Judaism. What makes this person different? Jeremy Piven is a Buddhist and a Jew.WikifanBe nice 08:46, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
Here is WP:RS [2] that say that he is a Jew.--Shrike (talk) 08:56, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
"Categories ... should not be used unless the subject has publicly self-identified, and ... are relevant to their public life or notability". It's not up to him to deny, it's up to him to affirm. Show me where he identified himself as a Jew. I contend that the media's comments on the subject are not encyclopedic (elaborated upon above). Also, why is it relevant to his notability (without invoking a stereotype)?

Is there consensus on what the category is supposed to mean? Without that, I don't understand how you can choose who to put in it, since the term has different meanings depending on context. As someone pointed out, Category:American people of Jewish descent is clear in its meaning, and I would not argue against its use here. —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 04:47, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

I am not going to comment on the categorization. However, I will say that BLPCat does not apply to this article. Do I really have to explain why? It's the same reason it doesn't apply to Benjamin Franklin, Ronald Reagan, and Michael Jackson's articles. BTW, I'm not a fan of the sentence "although his and his bandmates' Jewish heritage was often referenced in media" - which is pointless and hard to define. Previously, the mainstream media couldn't even figure out that Yauch's father was not Jewish, something that's being widely reported now only because I found a couple of obscure (but accurate) references to that fact and added it to the article a few months back (the media also seems to rarely note that Ad-Rock has a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother, usually just saying he's "Jewish" with no particular authority). All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 09:12, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Ad-Rock is clearly of Jewish descent as his father is Jewish, see Josh Groban. Beastie Boys have been recognized by RS as a band of "Jews" - trio of Jews, a group of Jews, etc. Mike D contains a Jewish category. The members are Jews. The Beastie Boys articles includes a category as a Jewish hip-hop group. One only has to look at the laundry list of [3]. This shouldn't be an issue. If Yauch had explicitly identify himself divorced from what the mainstream considers "Jewish" then maybe there would be a strong argument against including the category. So far, I do not see any wiki policy that supports its exclusion. The category should be reinstated until editors can find a source and guideline that support its exclusion. WikifanBe nice 09:40, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
Like I said, I offer no opinion on the categorization. Other than that BLPcat doesn't apply to this page, for obvious reasons. That said. I had to laugh at these edits by John on Jeremy Piven's page. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 18:43, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
Trying to deny Yauch his Jewishness just because he did not practice the religion of Judaism strikes me as very misguided. People don't need to self-identify as an ethnicity, this is wonkery. All these references referring to him as Jewish didn't just invent it out of thin air and it seems that in roughly 26 years of performing and people referring to him as Jewish he would have said something if he wasn't. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 19:59, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
So can I reinstate the category without revert? Any oppose? I took the liberty of restoring Jeremy Piven's status as a Jew. John, if you disagree with what the mainstream Wikipedia community has considered the litmus test for Jewish I urge you to consult the appropriated projects and noticeboards. Piven is a Jew. WikifanBe nice 20:51, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
Sorry, but I object and so does WP:BLPCAT. --John (talk) 21:13, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
BLPCAT is irrelevant in this case; it only applies to living people. Jim Michael (talk) 22:28, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
  • This person had historic relatives that were Jewish - some of those relatives practised the Judaism faith - this person did not - there are two options of category to put him in - Category:American people of Jewish descent or Category:American Jews - its clear to me from a NPOV position which one he belongs in = simple really = Youreallycan 22:45, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
Historic relatives? His mother is Jewish, therefore making Yauch Jewish. WikifanBe nice 23:20, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
Cool - yes - what genetic history had his Father? = 23:26, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
It doesn't matter. 1 WikifanBe nice 23:34, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
His father was (is?) the son of Virginia and Wilbert Christ Yauch of Detroit, Michigan. Wilbert was the son of Annie and Christ Yauch. Christ Yauch's parents were German, and Annie's parents were Scottish (as was Annie, by birth), meaning that Adam Yauch was 12.5% German and 12.5% Scottish. I don't know about his grandmother, Virginia's, lineage, but her parents were American-born. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 23:57, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
  • WikifanBe nice said "Ethnicity and religion are two entirely different things". OK - you acknowledge this. Why do you assume that Category:American Jews is defined as including anyone of Jewish ethnicity, regardless of (self-admitted beliefs of) religion? If so, why do we have Category:American people of Jewish descent?

    You also say "WP:BLPCAT does not apply". Why not? WP:BDP says "Contentious or questionable material that affects living persons or recently deceased persons should be removed promptly." This is certainly contentious and questionable. Also, if WP:BLPCAT applies to the living and not the dead, the criteria for inclusion in the category are then different for the living and the dead? Does that really make sense?

    Then, there was this: "as established in this thread numerous times, one can be Jewish without following the religion" Established by who? I disagree, and so do others. Who is a Jew?#Jews who have practiced another faith is particularly relevant in describing the lack of consensus on this subject. There is also a lack of consensus on the issue of matrilineal descent (please read Who is a Jew?#Jewish by birth), even though various people have stated it as though it were fact here.

    This is not personal. It's not about Adam Yauch† and "denying him his Jewishness". It's about the scary use of labels for a group of people who have been hurt by it in the past, based on no better source than offhand quips by the media (who were unlikely to be intending to imply any authority), and for no better reason than to highlight a stereotype. It's simply not encyclopedic. We are better than this. It also should go without saying that it's not personal against any wikipedians who I chose to quote or questioned directly :)

    †at least for those of us that disagree with the categorization. This is likely to come up again the next time a non-practicing person of Jewish descent dies unless we correctly and clearly define Category:American Jews (or abolish it, which would be OK with me).

    —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 16:21, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Report at the BLP noticeboard

Reference Citation Format Please and Comment Re: Jewish Identity

I added the cause of death and cited to the Chicago Trib. My format was just a bare URL. I know the correct format should reference the names of the newspaper and article, author, publication date, and retrieval date. Is there a place where there are simple examples or templates for common citations to newspapers, online magazines and journals, etc.? Would someone be so kind as to point me to that page.

Why is it important as to whether or not the subject "self identify" as a Jew. I do not find it disgusting to reference a deceased person's ethnic background. In any event, if someone "self-identifies" as the "Savior of the Free World," does Wikipedia include this information? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Da5id403 (talk • contribs) 17:13, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

He doesn't have to. Blpcat does not apply to ethnicity. He is Jewish, or in the least of Jewish descent. One cannot stop being a Native American, right? Or African-American? Or Jewish-American? The issue is not religious, Jewishness is inherited - Judaism is a religion and anyone can convert of course. I don't understand how editors cannot get this. WikifanBe nice 22:39, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
I know. --John (talk) 13:16, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Anyone on this page ought to go over to Talk:Vidal Sassoon and Talk:Jeremy Piven, where John is peddling an absurd version of this same discussion. While it is pretty clear that reasonable people can disagree about whether someone of Adam Yauch's background should be described as "Jewish", there is no such disagreement about people like Piven or Sassoon, who were born to two Jewish parents, are identified as Jewish by reliable sources, and have identified themselves as Jewish. I hope this isn't some long-running trend you're planning to pursue, John, because it makes no logical sense whatsoever. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 05:03, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Request for comment

The report at the BLP noticeboard seems to indicate that BLPCAT is not applicable. This is a content dispute. I propose that Adam Yauch is Jewish and should be included in the category Category:American Jews, per a multitude reliable sources. Night Ranger (talk) 02:56, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

  • Support Per nom. Night Ranger (talk) 02:58, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Support I made the original edit that was reverted. Reasons behind edit explained above. WikifanBe nice 03:18, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Support Per nom. The objection seems to be based on original research and a misunderstanding of Judaism. West Eddy (talk) 03:39, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Support Why not All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 03:47, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose Per my arguments above, to which I haven't seen direct answers. —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 04:24, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose Wikipedia does not use the one-drop rule but instead relies on self-identification. As there is no evidence that the recently dead subject self-identified as a Jew, to edit-war to keep this category in place seems like a sort of yellow badge mentality. If he did not during his lifetime see fit to identify as a Jew, it is disgusting and disrespectful to posthumously label him as such. --John (talk) 05:07, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
Yellow badge mentality? Why did you unilaterally remove the category from Jeremy Piven? It was only after I linked to the article did that occur. There is more than enough evidence supporting the fact that Yauch is a Jew (his mother is Jewish), including the endless sources describing the Beastie Boys as a Jewish hip-hop band. Ethnicity and religion are two entirely different things. BLPcat does not apply in this case. WikifanBe nice 05:39, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose I'm well aware that Judaism defines Jewishness according to the mother, but I'm not comfortable with letting that override the principle of self-identification here. After all, if a Christian faith allowed baptism of the dead and considered all thus baptised to be members of its church - would we categorise them on that basis? --GenericBob (talk) 06:54, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
GenericBob—You are comparing Christianity and Judaism. Are they really comparable? A Christian is a person who believes in Christ, primarily. What must a Jew believe in to be a Jew? Nothing. The answer is: nothing. A Jew is never defined as a person who believes in something. Jewish atheists are commonplace. There is nothing unusual about a Jew being an atheist. While Judaism and Christianity are comparable in some ways, there are also significant discontinuities. Reliable sources are aware of this. We should be following the findings of reliable sources. If you can present a source that at all articulates that perhaps Adam Yauch might not be Jewish, that is something that should be taken into consideration. But no source like that has been presented. Bus stop (talk) 11:41, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
Bus stop, I'm aware that "Jew" can be a religious, cultural, and/or ethnic identity (and sometimes a fuzzy mix of the above). But you might've missed that I was specifically responding to Wikifan, who asserted that "Yauch has a Jewish mother, therefore he is Jewish." I am aware of a religious definition of Judaism which determines Jewish (religious) identity according to the mother, and I assumed Wikifan was invoking that definition (hence my response).
If it was intended as a cultural/ethnic statement, then I dispute the implication that having one parent in group X automatically categorises a person as group X - that is the "one-drop rule" and a bad precedent. If Yauch identified as Jewish, under any of those definitions... surely he must have described himself that way on the record at least once? --GenericBob (talk) 12:40, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
As individuals we can have opinions and dispute whatever we want - but ethnicity is not something that can be negotiated with. Yauch is Jewish by virtue of having a Jewish mother, and would be of Jewish descent if his father was Jewish. Whether or not he embraced his status as a Jew is truly irrelevant. One does not need to self-identify as a Native American to be Native American, even though many don't identify with the various religious/spiritual movements affiliated with Native American culture. What we have are strong third party sources confirming Yauch is a Jew, the Beastie Boys is described as a "Jewish hip-hop band" and his mother is Jewish. One editor said something to the effect that Wikipedia is secular...well, that is not entirely true. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and has no religious affiliation. What decides who and who is not a Jew is not up to the opinions of editors, but historical fact. If Yauch is not considered a Jew by the wikipedia community in this dispute, it would be against the long-standing consensus regarding Jewish BLPs. WikifanBe nice 13:02, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
I'm not going to look for cites at this time of the night, but I'm pretty sure there have been several other cases on WP where attempts at ethnic categorisation were rejected on the grounds that the subject did not identify with the ethnicity in question - even where they clearly had ancestry of that type. As to "what decides who and who is not a Jew" - there are multiple different answers to that question, some of them contradictory, depending on which aspect of "Jewishness" is under discussion and who's asked. When you say "Jewish by virtue of having a Jewish mother, and would be of Jewish descent if his father was Jewish - are you commenting on the religious aspect, the ethnic aspect, or the cultural aspect? --GenericBob (talk) 13:49, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
I suggest you look at the "cites" before addressing my original point. I urge you to find an example of a BLP where a candidates mother is Jewish and the BLP is not listed as an ethnic Jew or of Jewish descent. WikifanBe nice 21:24, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
I have no objection to "of Jewish descent" for somebody with a Jewish mother - if you're willing to accept that, it works for me. It's just straight "Jewish" that I'm uncomfortable accepting without reason to believe he identified as such.
As an example, see Bobby Fischer, who had a Jewish mother and is categorised as "of Jewish descent" - but not as a "Jew", since (to put it mildly) he didn't identify as such. It's not a BLP, but then the rules for categorising BLPs/near-BLPs are more restrictive than those applying to his article. If self-identification is irrelevant, then Fischer should presumably be categorised as a Jew, regardless of how anti-Semitic he happened to be. --GenericBob (talk) 13:13, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
GenericBob—this not being the Bobby Fischer talk page I feel that questions concerning the Categorization of Bobby Fischer should be confined to that article's Talk page.
Do sources say that Adam Yauch is Jewish? Yes, they do. Has any editor brought any source to this thread suggesting that Adam Yauch may not be Jewish? No, they have not. We know that Adam Yauch is Jewish because all sources that address that question confirm for us that Adam Yauch is Jewish. You need a source to show that Adam Yauch may not be Jewish. No source is suggesting that Adam Yauch might not be Jewish. To argue that Adam Yauch is not Jewish is original research. On what basis would you justify denying Adam Yauch inclusion in Category:American Jews? Is he not American? Is he not Jewish? Sources unanimously support the applicability of these attributes to Adam Yauch; no source suggests otherwise. Please bring sources if you wish to present an argument that Adam Yauch might not be Jewish. In the absence of contradictory sources we should be adhering to the findings of the sources that are available to us. Bus stop (talk) 14:39, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
"this not being the Bobby Fischer talk page I feel that questions concerning the Categorization of Bobby Fischer should be confined to that article's Talk page" - please read my mention of Bobby Fischer as a response to these comments:
"If Yauch is not considered a Jew by the wikipedia community in this dispute, it would be against the long-standing consensus regarding Jewish BLPs."
"I urge you to find an example of a BLP where a candidates mother is Jewish and the BLP is not listed as an ethnic Jew or of Jewish descent"
"The opposition to Yauch's obvious status as a Jew is inconsistent with what the wikipedia community has accepted for a long time - without challenge - what requires are needed to be considered a Jew for BLP articles"
"Does Clarence Thomas have to self-identify as African-American to be African-American?"
When it's been asserted four times that this is how we handle it on other articles, and when I've been challenged to provide a counter-example to that assertion - well, it seems a bit late in the discussion to take the stance that other articles are irrelevant only after I provide one. As for evidence against his being a Jew, All Hallow's Wraith has already provided several quotes indicating that he didn't think of himself that way. Without those quotes, I'd be willing to accept the third-party cites. --GenericBob (talk) 10:20, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
GenericBob—if you feel that there are "quotes" that indicate that Adam Yauch is not Jewish, please present those quotes in a post of your own. I would appreciate it if you would then tell us how you feel that those quotes serve to indicate to us that Adam Yauch is not Jewish. Bus stop (talk) 13:39, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose We can label him "of Jewish desent" and this is what can be taken from "Beastie Boys as a Jewish hip-hop band". But it would be mis-leading to say he is Jewish. which implys following the Judaic religion, without some reference that says specificly that he followed the Judaic religion. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 07:03, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment Richard, as established in this thread numerous times, one can be Jewish without following the religion. Natalie Portman is an atheist, yet is still Jewish. There is nothing in wikipedia guidelines or Jewish law that remotely suggests one must be a follower of a "Judaic religion" in order to be considered Jewish. WikifanBe nice 07:19, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
Then I feel that should change. If you ask people what are the religious practices of a Jew, they would start describing Judaic pratices. If you ask do all people of Jewish decent practice Judaism, people will say no. By saying he is a Jew seems to me to be misleading. Saying he is of Jewish decent is more precise. To my mind Natalie Portman should be cat'd as of Jewish decent. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 17:43, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
Portman self-identifies as Jewish. She may have been refering to Jewish culture as opposed to Judaism, but so what. Yauch doesn't. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 18:05, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Support WP:RS call him Jew--Shrike (talk) 09:54, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose We can label him "of Jewish descent" - which in this situation is reflective to the weight of the issue in his life - a Catholic Father and a non religious upbringing and life. Youreallycan 13:43, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Support Reliable sources say he is Jewish. This isn't the "one drop rule" or "yellow badge", those are red herrings; I'm not sure what John sees in being Jewish that is so disgusting that we're defaming Yauch by saying he is Jewish. I agree with prior comments that the two categories are redundant, and it seems the real issue here is sloppy category creation and not Yauch's heritage. In an article about a Jew, it is ludicrous to ignore how Jews themselves determine whether or not they are Jewish. Being Jewish doesn't only mean following the religion, but incorporates another huge set of characteristics, such as culture, ethnicity, background, etc. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 15:04, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Support Reliable sources report on his Jewishness. Hipocrite (talk) 15:10, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment and Request for Sources to be Cited - I see a lot of votes for support and oppose, but I don't see a lot of people citing sources. A recent article made this statement:
For some white hip-hop acts — particularly House of Pain and Lordz of Brooklyn — ethnic identity has served as muse, marketing gimmick or both. Not so for the Beastie Boys. If they mentioned their Jewish heritage even once, I must have missed it; I doubt any of them has heard the word shkotz in his life. (In fact, Yauch, like me was only half-Jewish.) - Adam Yauch: Requiem for a Shkotz
I have been trying to locate a source where Adam Yaunch firsthand tells a source something about his background. I have seen that he identifies as Buddhist (here), and people say his mother was Jewish. But I would say that these voters above need to be pulling up sources, not just adding another vote on a pile. Just because a lot of sources say "Jewish trio" doesn't mean they did their homework on this. The reliability of a source depends on context and what you intend to use it to show. In this case, find a souce and show what you claim you want to apply to the article, don't just vote. -- Avanu (talk) 15:24, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
Also, WP:BLP applies to recently deceased people, namely those who have died within the past year. -- Avanu (talk) 15:34, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
There are some sources here: from this: "I wasn't raised with any religion, really. My mom was raised Jewish, and my dad was raised Catholic. Neither of them was too excited about the religious stuff they were brought up on, so they decided that they wouldn't raise me with any religion. I got interested in it later."
From here: "And of course, there's the Jewish issue, relevant because of hip hop's insistent anti-Semitic nattering... "
"... Our Jewishness was never part of our upbringing at all," says Yauch. "I think all of us came from families with one Jewish parent and one Catholic parent, anyway."... "No Catholics in my family," demurs Mike D. ... "No?" ... "Damn straight." He puffs up his chest. ... "Really?" Yauch reconsiders. "In any case, I guess I don't know what these guys' religious backgrounds are, and that's probably because none of us ever really discussed Judaism, as you're now seeing here ... All I knew was that once every year or so, my mom would take me out to a Seder and my Uncle Freddy would scream, 'Pass the matzoh,' and I didn't know what the fuck was going on. ... "
" ... "Yeah," says Yauch, "when I asked my mom, 'Is there a God?' she said, 'I don't know. What do you think?' One thing about it, though, that's true and cool is that I get a lot of Jewish kids coming up to me feeling pride and strength from what we're doing. And I definitely don't wanna take anything away from that." ... " All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 15:37, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
Absolutely 4 stars for you on that research, AllHallows. Good work. You think it settle this dispute? Hmmm.... -- Avanu (talk) 15:52, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
Well, I, uh, voted support. But you asked... All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 16:00, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
There is also this: "Yauch, now 41, recalls surprise at the press' discussion of their Jewish heritage, "The second we went over to England to tour, our religion definitely became the focus. When we read stuff like, 'Three Jews Do This,' we were completely shocked. We didn't even notice that all three of us were Jewish because generally New Yorkers don't seem to marry themselves to their backgrounds too much. When you get a couple of generations away from the old country, it is easy to lose track of your heritage." ... In fact, only Yauch's mother was brought up in a Jewish household; Yauch had a more secular upbringing and, in recent years, has discovered a love for the Buddhist faith." All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 16:08, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Refs from the article: his and his bandmates' Jewish heritage was often referenced in media.[1][2][3][4]
  1. ^ O'Malley Greenburg, Zack (5/04/2012). "Adam 'MCA' Yauch And The Beastie Boys: Hip-Hop Pioneers". Forbes. Retrieved 7 May 2012. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
  2. ^ Howell, Peter (2012/05/05). "Beasties' Adam Yauch: Memories of a Renaissance Boy". Toronto Star. Retrieved 7 May 2012. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
  3. ^ A. Greenberg, Brad (May 4, 2012). "Beastie Boys' Adam Yauch, Jewish legend and hip-hop pioneer, has died". Jewish Journal. Retrieved 7 May 2012.
  4. ^ Kensky, Eitan (May 06, 2012). "Adam Yauch and the Adolescent Sublime". Jewish Daily Forward. Retrieved 7 May 2012. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

- Burpelson AFB ✈ 16:24, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

  • Question Is being Jewish part of his notability? Did he self-identify as a Jew? I feel these questions are more relevant than whether or not his mother was Jewish. ~Adjwilley (talk) 17:49, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
Self identification only matters for BLPCAT, which is not applicable here per the BLP Noticeboard. We use reliable, third-party sources to build content, not "such and such says so". And I'd say his Jewishness is very much a part of his notability considering how many reliable sources repeatedly make reference to it. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 18:14, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Procedural comment A couple of users have (I think falsely) stated that there is a consensus at WP:BLPN that WP:BLPCAT is not applicable. I do not see any such consensus there, which means it is now being discussed in two places at once. This may make it harder to judge the overall consensus once the time comes. --John (talk) 19:57, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

You and Rob were repeatedly asked by someone there how Yauch's living relatives would be negatively affected by us referring to him as Jewish and nobody could provide an answer. The question was asked again at the bottom of that discussion and still nobody can provide a response. That's because there's absolutely no negative connotation. The category is "American Jews", not "American Terrorists" or "Convicted Rapists". Claiming he has to self identify and that BLPCAT applies is approaching WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Night Ranger (talk) 01:53, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
Remind me, where does it say "negative"? --John (talk) 05:29, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
Red herring. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 18:24, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
If it is a red herring, why did Night Ranger bring it up? --John (talk) 13:20, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
And nobody saw me write: read the rest of WP:BDP, where it says "Contentious or questionable material that affects living persons or recently deceased persons should be removed promptly." This is certainly contentious and questionable. Also, if WP:BLPCAT applies to the living and not the dead, the criteria for inclusion in Category:American Jews are then different for the living and the dead? Does that really make sense?" —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 21:04, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Support I've got a great idea—why not categorize him as an American Jew? That is what the sources are saying. Shouldn't we be deferring to reliable sources? Bus stop (talk) 02:58, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
That was my original edit, which was removed by John citing blpcat policy. I have reason to believe some really doesn't understand the concept of Jewishness. After linking Jeremy Piven as an example, John also removed the category even though he is clearly Jewish. Jewish does not = Judaism. Most Jews are secular. Probably half the people on the American Jews infobox have the same Jewish status as Yauch. WikifanBe nice 04:07, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
Adam Yauch is obviously Jewish because reliable sources tell us so and we defer to reliable sources. Category:American Jews is the applicable category. A Jew is a person who converted to Judaism or was born to a Jewish parent and it does not matter whether the person is observant, nonobservant, or in-between. Judaism does not distinguish between observant Jews and nonobservant Jews. A person is considered a Jew if they converted to Judaism or if they were born to a Jewish parent. Reliable sources know this. These are the guidelines we can assume reliable sources are following and we should be deferring to reliable sources. We have ample confirmation in numerous reliable sources that Adam Yuach Yauch is Jewish. Bus stop (talk) 04:25, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
Who is a "reliable source" to say how someone self-identifies? How about the man himself? The great research from All Hallow's Wraith above pretty clearly shows that he was, at most, a "holiday Jew" as a child, and certainly did not self-identify or show any interest in it (like even knowing exactly whether his band members were Jewish) afterwards. His mother was Jewish, and that is not in dispute. That's why we have Category:American people of Jewish descent. As I've said repeatedly, I don't believe that any of the other sources people are calling reliable meant their comments on the matter to be scholarly or authoritative - they were simply drawing attention to a difference between stereotypes. Since when is that something that belongs in an encyclopedia?

Bus stop went on to say: A Jew is a person who converted to Judaism or was born to a Jewish parent and it does not matter whether the person is observant, nonobservant, or in-between… There is no consensus for this statement or the sentences that follow it. You can't even accurately say "A jew is" without specifying whether you are talking about ethnicity, beliefs, practice, etc., and even then, there is not necessarily a consensus on the subject. Please read Who is a Jew?, which does a good job of describing the wide variety of beliefs and customs over time and around the world. —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 21:04, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

AlanM1—you say "His mother was Jewish, and that is not in dispute." How do you know that? Can you please tell me how you know that his mother was Jewish? Bus stop (talk) 21:53, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
Like I said, nobody's arguing that point. The closest I see is someone above quoting the subject as saying "My mom was raised Jewish, and my dad was raised Catholic.". Why? —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 20:03, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
AlanM1—you are accepting that Adam Yauch's mother is Jewish but you remain unconvinced that Adam Yauch is Jewish. Why are you accepting that Adam Yauch's mother was Jewish but you are not accepting that Adam Yauch was Jewish? Bus stop (talk) 21:53, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
Every time you or someone else writes "was Jewish", I must again ask you to read Who is a Jew?, because it is clear you have either not read it, or not understood it. The second sentence of the lead "The question is based in ideas about Jewish personhood which themselves have cultural, religious, genealogical, and personal dimensions" makes it quite clear that "was Jewish" is a nonsensical description if you don't specify the context. Even then, if you read the rest of the article, you will see that there is no consensus on any of the dimensions. He was clearly among the group Category:American people of Jewish descent because that is a sociological and scientific definition, not one of consensus or belief (although I guess you could call "science" a communal belief if you really wanted to get silly about it). —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 00:07, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
AlanM1—you say: "Every time you or someone else writes 'was Jewish', I must again ask you to read 'Who is a Jew?', because it is clear you have either not read it, or not understood it."
You say a few posts up: "His mother was Jewish…"
Question: why do you accept that "his mother was Jewish"? Bus stop (talk) 17:51, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
I suppose I mean to concede that point without argument because it doesn't matter to the question at hand. I'm not arguing about who should be in the category – I'm arguing that the category is not precisely defined, and probably should not exist. Even if we were to define which aspects (and belief about those aspects) it covers, we'd be picking and choosing among which traditions to acknowledge, which doesn't seem like something we should do. —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 08:47, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
His name was "Yauch", not "Yuach". Wikipedia does not necessarily follow the rules of Jewish matrilineal descent. Being a secular project it has its own rules. --John (talk) 05:29, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
Does Wikipedia decide who is Jewish and who is not Jewish? Again, this isn't a religious issue, but an ethnic one. Is that not the role of reliable, third party sources? Numerous sources have been provided confirming Yauch is a Jew, both according to Jewish culture and historic fact (i.e, so and so describes Yauch as a Jew). I ask again...why remove a category (Jeremy Piven) that had been in the article for several years after I linked to it? Piven is most certainly Jewish and considers himself a Jew, yet similar to this dispute you removed the category according to blpcat. This new interpretation of blpcat is....new. It should be reviewed and scrutinized. I will defer to Bus stop argument because it is sound.WikifanBe nice 05:44, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
John—I didn't say anything about "matrilineal descent." Please don't imply that I have said something which I have not. I think your references to "yellow badge" here and here are not relevant to this discussion. I think others have pointed this out too. Why do you think "yellow badge" is relevant to this discussion? This is something which has echos with the Holocaust, a dark period in Jewish history. Is it really relevant here in this discussion, as well as on the BLP Noticeboard, where you've posted that particular reference too? Bus stop (talk) 14:06, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
Yes, very much so. --John (talk) 13:20, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
Why? Night Ranger (talk) 20:53, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
Read the links, it should be pretty obvious if you do that. One drop rule, yellow badge. --John (talk) 16:26, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
  • There are many definitions of being Jewish, and for every one of them, there are Jews and non-Jews who object to it. As far as I am concerned, I regard the matter as not always susceptible of a yes or no answer. I know families where some siblings consider themselves Jewish and others do not (without any of it being due to religious conversion, just cultural/political identity). I know no definition that applies to everybody. I do not only go by self-identifiction, either, though it is sometimes wise to do so.
    The current version of the article deals with it properly: it gives the factors, gives the references, and lets people draw their own conclusions. Our desire to reach a one-word summary is often impossible. Some here therefore say we should never put ourselves in a position where we need to & have no such categories except where it is both indisputable and self-identified; I sometimes say we should accept any criterion. I consider the matter unsettled. DGG ( talk ) 23:40, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
Yes! Exactly. —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 00:07, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Comment I would hesitate to label him as Jewish without adding "heritage" or "non-practicing" or something to that sort. While the term Jewish does not, necessarily, mean someone who practices the Jewish faith, that association is present. And saying that he is "of Jewish Heritage" is much clearer and adding those two words does not unnecessarily muddy or lengthen the article. Unsigned—Nightenbelle 13:37, 11 May 2012‎
Nightenbelle—he was Jewish. That happens to be what sources are saying. I think the article should say he was Jewish. Nor should we be lavishing attention on the fact that he was Jewish. He was a musician. That is important. Our article understandably should focus on and explore that material that relates directly to and tangentially to his presence in our thinking about music and the particular area of music in which he worked. This is not an article on his Jewishness. Do you have a source that says that he was nonobservant? If so then say that he was a nonobservant Jew. Is the word secular found in sources? If so then say he was a secular Jew. Assimilated? Nonpracticing? Wording used should probably derive from sources or it probably should not be used. And again, this is not a primary point. The reader might be interested in knowing that he was Jewish. But that's about it. This is an article that is primarily about a musician. That is where our focus should be. Bus stop (talk) 15:39, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
Exactly. That's why we have Category:American people of Jewish descent. —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 20:03, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
Agreed. The problem is the insistence on using this illogically vague two-word Category:American Jews, which is what we oppose. Your questions are answered (affirmatively) by All Hallow's Wraith's interview quotes above. —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 20:03, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
What is "illogically vague" about the Category:American Jews? Bus stop (talk) 22:32, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
There is no consensus on the meaning of the term, nor can there be. Please read Who is a Jew?. —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 00:07, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
AlanM1—you say "There is no consensus on the meaning of the term, nor can there be." Should we edit out of the article that which you feel has no "meaning"? Your argument is that an attribute of identity that several reliable sources are using in reference to Adam Yauch has no "meaning" to you. All reliable sources that address the question at all tell us that Adam Yauch is Jewish. Do you think that we should edit the article based on the opinions of individual editors or should we edit the article based on that which is supported by reliable sources? Bus stop (talk) 17:28, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
I am not arguing that it has no meaning to me. There's no reason to make this personal. I, several other people making the argument here, and a whole bunch of people in the world, hold the belief that "being Jewish" is a complicated question, and people can not and should not be pigeon-holed into such a category. Even among the individual aspects of the question (like matrilineal descent), there are significant arguments and communities on both sides. A source who insists on using such a label is either ignorant of the complexity of the question, or is purposely glossing over it because the comment is made purely for entertainment. And that's more or less ok with most people, depending on context, but it's not "reliable", nor is it encyclopedic. Even some on the "pro" side of the argument here agree that it is not significant to his notability. —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 08:47, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
American people of Jewish descent applies to people who have a Jewish background, but their immediate family or only their father is Jewish. In Yauch's case, his mother is Jewish - making him an ethnic Jew. Josh Groban is an example of someone who is of Jewish descent, Natalie Portman is an example of someone who is Jewish. The opposition to Yauch's obvious status as a Jew is inconsistent with what the wikipedia community has accepted for a long time - without challenge - what requires are needed to be considered a Jew for BLP articles. WikifanBe nice 00:39, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
I really don't understand any of this. You're flopping back and forth between different wording, seemingly without precision. As far as "accepted for a long time", hogwash. Even if true (and I don't believe it is), that is no reason not to question/refine/discuss. That's how society evolves. —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 00:07, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Apparently reliable sources and consensus don't matter. John is implying we're anti-semites for saying Yauch is Jewish instead of adhering to his personal interpretive, synthetic version of what it means to be a Jew with some non-applicable stuff from BLPCAT thrown in as a swagger stick. I'd love to know what JEWS think about this. Oh wait, we already know [4], [5]. Guess they're anti-semites too. Night Ranger (talk) 21:02, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
Considering what reliable sources say, and the precedents set up other articles, and the fact that the community has never challenged what it means to be a Jew in this kind of way, I believe the categorie(s) should be reinstated and this discussion moved to a more formal mediation board that will address the grievances of editors here. The dispute has mutated beyond Yauch and more about is required to be a Jew according to wikipedia standards. Even if we cite BLPcat, it does not apply to ethnicity. Like I said before, does anyone believe people need to self-identify as Native Americans to be Native American? Does Clarence Thomas have to self-identify as African-American to be African-American? Anyone? No. John went ahead and unilaterally removed the Jewish Americans category at Jeremy Piven after I linked the article here as an example, which he still hasn't fully explained: link. WikifanBe nice 21:40, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
Again with the idea that there is only one opposing argument, and now you're putting words in his mouth to further inflame things?. Several people have argued on both sides. It's not "personal interpretive, synthetic version of what it means to be a Jew". Please read Who is a Jew?. "I'd love to know what JEWS think about this". Then read what we say here, though that shouldn't matter, particularly for NPOV. As far as Native Americans and African-Americans, I believe (perhaps incorrectly) that these are wholly (are at least most predominantly) categories of ethnicity alone, and therefore not relevant to the discussion. —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 00:07, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
@Alan - Jewishness is an ethnicity, just as African-American and Native-American is an ethnicity. To be considered Native American one only needs to prove - what - 1/16s ancestry? Or something? In this case, Yauch's mother is Jewish, and according to Jewish tradition, culture, and law - that makes him an ethnic Jew, whether he embraces it or not. WikifanBe nice 19:50, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Part of "Jewishness" is an ethnicity. According to some Jewish tradition, culture, and law, that makes him an ethnic Jew, whether he embraces it or not. According to some others, he becomes "not Jewish" if he does not practice or obey religious law, which is clearly the case here, based on his own words. —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 08:47, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
AlanM1—a nonobservant Jew remains a Jew. From where are you deriving that this status changes as a consequence of not practicing? You are saying that "According to some others, he becomes "not Jewish" if he does not practice or obey religious law". This is incorrect. No source says anything of the sort. If you believe a source says that a Jew loses the status of being a Jew as a consequence of not practicing, would you please bring such a source here? Bus stop (talk) 13:03, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
Again, you need to read Who is a Jew?. Some even sit shiva for someone who has "left the fold". You are wrong. —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 01:53, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
What's the next step in mediation after an RFC? Arbcom? Night Ranger (talk) 02:43, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Whatever it is, let's do it. We're going around in circles and devolving into name-calling here. —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 00:07, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
FYI - ArbCom only accepts cases if all other reasonable steps to resolve the dispute have been exhausted, and they only look at conduct issues. You can try Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard, but an awful lot of time is being spent on something relatively minor. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:38, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
I do believe this needs to be moved to another level of dispute resolution because the sides are becoming even more polarized as people restate what has been stated. Some options are: a Third Opinion, the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard, and Wikiquette Assistance. If you thin you've discussed the issues thoroughly you could skip that step and move on to the next one I recommend which is Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal. As to the topic at hand, I think either a non-practicing Jew or of Jewish descent are good options. Just stating that he was a Jew seems like labeling him with a label that he and some sources on Jewish identity would say overstates the Jewish aspect of his identity. Jewish law and social custom in some areas are not the only determinants of identity in this area. It is an area in which Wikipedia must tread carefully and articles and categories should either reflect all relevant opinions in this area or state things with due accuracy. Saying someone is a Jew brings a number of associations to mind. Saying someone was a non-practicing Jew or a Jew who embraced Buddhism gives a fuller picture of the individual's relationship to the complexity of the term Jew.Factseducado (talk) 13:47, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
Factseducado—you say "Just stating that he was a Jew seems like labeling him with a label that he and some sources on Jewish identity would say overstates the Jewish aspect of his identity."
Adam Yauch of course does not in any way indicate he is not a Jew. As concerns "some sources on Jewish identity" you would have to bring such sources and I don't believe such sources exist. Bus stop (talk) 14:43, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
Further arguing is not moving towards resolution. Yauch said he was surprised about the British media attention to the Jewish nature of the band members because he and the other other members, according to Yaunch, didn't give thought to being Jewish. This indicates that Yauch was perceived as Jewish by some people but that it was not his own way of viewing himself or his bandmates. The other sources on Jewish identity has been referenced in this thread. Again this needs to move forward in the dispute resolution process. This talk page discussion is not moving forward. Factseducado (talk) 18:42, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
Factseducado—are you referring to this source? If so what wording in it indicates that Adam Yauch is not Jewish? Please provide a quote. If you are referring to another source please provide a link. Bus stop (talk) 20:19, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
The essay "Who is a Jew?" referenced above is something that bears examining. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factseducado (talk • contribs) 00:28, 18 May 2012
It is a lengthy article. Could you please excerpt from it a few succinct sentences that you may wish to bring to our attention? (Also, please sign your posts.) Bus stop (talk) 00:55, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for letting me know about signing. I'll try harder. I've made my points and others have had their say also. The article is lengthy because the issue of Jewish identity is complex. It's a notable essay and well worth reading. You don't have to read it if you don't want to. Factseducado (talk) 02:40, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
Factseducado—just so you know there is a distinction made between "article" and "essay". Consider browsing links such as: WP:NOTESSAY, WP:ESSAYS, WP:ARTICLE. Other pages may be available too but these I think convey the gist of the distinction. Bus stop (talk) 15:54, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
Bus stop – Now you are refusing the read the article Who is a Jew? because it's "too long"? If you want to bury your head in the sand, fine, but don't pretend to argue authoritatively about an issue that is the very core of what the article discusses. I use the word article in the generic sense - don't start picking at labels about something you refuse to even read – some of us that have read, understood, and lived parts of it, find it well-done. —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 01:53, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

This article addresses the issue of his personal religious adherence pretty explicitly. It stated, “The 27-year-old Jewish-born rapper wants to maintain his Jewish traditions and calls the conversion spiritual, rather than religious.”

and I don't think “Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons” is really valid here, since he is deceased.  Brendon is here 16:02, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

  • Oppose The fact that some jews categorise themselves and others as jewish based on matrilineal descent doesn't mean that someone is jewish based on matrilineal descent. He personally identified as buddhist. It would make much more sense to include him in Category:American people of Jewish descent. 89.100.207.51 (talk) 20:47, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
89.100.207.51—it is not Jews who are referring to Adam Yauch as Jewish. It is reliable sources providing us with this information. You point out Adam Yauch's association with Buddhism. Certainly if it is sourced it deserves representation in article space and/or by means of Categorization. But Adam Yauch's association with Buddhism would not render him no longer a Jew. And this is not necessarily merely in accordance with Judaism but rather in accordance with the findings of all reliable sources thus far presented in this thread. No source has for instance said that he is a Buddhist and not a Jew. What you need is a source suggesting that Adam Yauch might not be Jewish. Otherwise in my opinion we should be adhering to the sources already available to us. They all confirm that Adam Yauch is Jewish. Bus stop (talk) 21:27, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
Bus stop, your basic misunderstanding of the subtlety of this area is betrayed by your use of "and/or" above. Can you think about this a bit, then come back? --John (talk) 21:42, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
John—you seem to be finding something in error in my use of "and/or"[6] in a sentence I wrote above. Please tell me what you find to be problematic or in error about my use of "and/or" in that sentence. If you are right and there is something validly wrong with what I have written I will accept my error and stand corrected. Bus stop (talk) 23:31, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
Did you think about it yet? I'll give you a clue; all contentious material about living people or the recently dead has to be highly verifiable. If there was only a category saying he was a Jew and nothing in the article about it, where would the references go? --John (talk) 16:15, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose While he might be considered Jewish by a beth din, Wikipedia does not follow rabinnical law. He self-identified as Buddhist. Joefromrandb (talk) 17:41, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
BLPCAT does not apply and self-identification is irrelevant. His religion is irrelevant. One can be both Jewish and Buddhist. Jewishness is an ethnicity. Night Ranger (talk) 01:50, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
This approach has been tried before. It failed there. It will fail here. Joefromrandb (talk) 02:14, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
What does Elvis Presley have to do with Adam Yauch and Jewishness??? Do you deny the Jewish people their heritage? Night Ranger (talk) 14:10, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, it's all about Judaic matrilineal belief, if only you understood it the way Night Ranger understands it. --John (talk) 18:57, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose: The whole issue of matrilineal descent is probably why we have the "X of Jewish descent" categories for people who are genealogically Jewish but not identified as Jewish. Of course, being Jewish doesn't preclude you from being Buddhist either. But I can't see any identification by Yauch himself of Jewishness. If we can find a source where he says "yeah, I'm a Jew", then the category should be added, but until then... Sceptre (talk) 03:21, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Comment. We need to take note of the fact those arguing against including Adam Yauch in Category:American Jews have not brought any sources. Let me repeat that: not one source has been presented that in any way casts doubt on Adam Yauch's being Jewish. On the other hand there are numerous sources saying that Adam Yauch is Jewish. The notion that Adam Yauch is somehow not Jewish is merely original research—not supported by any sources. We go by reliable sources and we eschew original research. Bring sources in support of the idea that he may not be Jewish or abide by the findings of the multitude of sources that are available to us, all of which support that Adam Yauch is Jewish. Bus stop (talk) 05:13, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Not only that, nobody has brought any serious scholarly sources unequivocally stating that Yauch was not Martian, Venusian or Klingon. Perhaps, to follow this logic, we should now add a few more categories to the article? In all seriousness, the onus must always be on those seeking to add contentious material to the article to convince the rest of us, not ours to present information disproving the ethnic labellers' assertions. --John (talk) 09:15, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
I don't think there are any RS calling him Martian, Venusian or Kligon so the argument doesn't really hold. However I think we need to go back to the basics which is that the dispute is over to put him in the cat 'American Jews' or 'American people of Jewish descent' so even from a purely RS perspective, the question remains which one is best supported. And since the categories are basically wikipedia things, they do depend on the definitions we use for them. Nil Einne (talk) 09:21, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Exactly. And as the now-archived central discussion was archived without reaching an unambiguous result, we must be guided by the points made in this discussion here, along with WP:BLPCAT and WP:BDP. Wikipedia does not use matrilineal descent to assign labels; instead we have our own rules which we should endeavour to follow. --John (talk) 09:40, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Pure nonsense about the BLPCAT, it does not apply no matter how many times you keep insisting it does. Stop being disruptive. WP:V and WP:RS are still policies last time I checked and you're conveniently ignoring those "rules". Night Ranger (talk) 14:14, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Disruptive? Why not forum-shop it to WP:ANI? Oh, wait a minute, you already did and you were told to piss off. Looks like you'll have to accept the consensus is not with you on this occasion. These things happen. --John (talk) 18:37, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose The problem is seen in the introduction to this RFC where we see "I propose that Adam Yauch is Jewish". That would be fine on a website where there was a policy that "probably Jewish mother means the subject must be categorized as Jewish", but that website is not Wikipedia. The sooner this is rejected, the sooner constructive editing can resume. Johnuniq (talk) 10:08, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Read WP:V and WP:RS. Night Ranger (talk) 14:14, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Support his and his bandmates Jewishness has been well established by reliable sources. Hot Stop 13:31, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Thank you. Someone who follows the policies as they are written instead of using misinterpretations and original research. Night Ranger (talk) 14:14, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Hi Night ranger, please stop reinserting the American Jew category - there is no consensus for that in this discussion that I see, this is clearly a case where person of Jewish descent is much more applicable - a person without a Jewish upbringing, a Buddhist and his father is an Irish Catholic - the weight is minimal to all apart from people that support the mother line position and vague news reports. Youreallycan 20:35, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
The case for "Jewish descent" is not clear and the news reports are anything but vague. Those categories are redundant. Read WP:V and WP:RS. Night Ranger (talk) 21:14, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
His mother was a Jew, that is plenty of descent for me? What part of , he was a person without a Jewish upbringing, (his mother was non practicing) he was a Buddhist and his father is an Irish Catholic do you disagree with? Youreallycan 21:27, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Whether reliable sources are allotting much or little weight to Adam Yauch's mother being Jewish is immaterial and unknowable. The bottom line is that we do not maintain a parochial perspective. We maintain a global perspective. Reliable sources define for us what a Jew is. The many reliable sources listed above in this thread define Adam Yauch as a Jew. Therefore we unavoidably place Adam Yauch in Category:American Jews. It is not editors here who are defining what a Jew is. We defer to reliable sources for that. Nor do we decide that a nonobservant Jew is not a Jew. That decision is in the purview of reliable sources. Reliable sources tell us which individual is a Jew. We adhere to reliable sources because they provide us with our best assurance that our encyclopedia will not acquire over time a parochial perspective. Bus stop (talk) 22:35, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Procedural comment: The count is now 9:9. There clearly is no consensus and it seems like we're moving further apart. Where do we go from here? —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 01:53, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
    • No consensus = do not add article to the proposed category. --John (talk) 05:52, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
John & AlanM1—the Beastie Boys, who we place in Category:Jewish hip hop groups, were a "Famed Jewish hip-hop trio".
"Yauch, who went by the stage name MCA, founded the Beastie Boys with his two friends, Michael Diamond (Mike D) and Adam Horovitz (Adrock). In the rap genre that was dominated by African American acts, the Beasties stood out for their ethnicity - three white Jewish kids from Brooklyn, New York."
Can either of you account for the fact that you cannot find even one source to support your personal opinion that Adam Yauch is not Jewish? All of the sources, and there are many of them, that have been presented in this WP:RFC are saying that Adam Yauch is Jewish. Yet inexplicably you maintain a contrarian view on this. How do you explain or account for your insistence that Adam Yauch is not Jewish? Are you of the opinion that sources don't matter? I would maintain that sources matter a lot. I would maintain that it is sources that define who is a Jew. The music group that Adam Yauch was a part of was noted as a Jewish rap group and a Jewish hip hop group. The sources listed above in this RFC unambiguously say that Adam Yauch is Jewish. I would like to know on what basis you would justify denying inclusion in Category:American Jews? Please don't tell me that he is nonobservant. The reliable sources can be understood to know pertinent material surrounding the person they are writing about. There are many, many nonobservant Jews in the world. But I am digressing. The question of which person is Jewish should be decided for Wikipedia purposes by sources. Here we have a case where all sources that address the topic at all confirm for us that an individual is Jewish, and no sources suggest otherwise. Is that correct? Correct me if I am wrong—but you have brought a grand total of zero sources to this RFC. The bottom line is that we should be looking to see what sources say. That is the basis for the functioning of this project. Concerning whether or not the subject of a biography is Jewish clearly falls within the capability of sources. When we override sources we jeopardize the integrity of the project. Much of the palaver in this RFC is irrelevant. The question is: what do sources say? If you have no sources even remotely suggesting that Adam Yauch may not be Jewish then on what basis are you arguing that Adam Yauch is not Jewish? We are not the creators of original information. We are expected to derive all of our material from sources. Bus stop (talk) 13:57, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
RfCs are not votes. Discussion controls the outcome; it is not a matter of counting up the number of votes. Wikipedia is not about voting. Polling is not a substitute for discussion. Added by User:Brendon111 here.
The fact that they are Jewish distinguishes them from other rap groups. Sources are saying that. Why would we overlook that?
"Adam Yauch, aka MCA and one of the founding members of the all Jewish troupe of New York City rappers known as the Beastie Boys, died Friday of cancer. Yaunch was 47. At the time that the three Beastie Boys began their career in the 1980s, the hip-hop and rap scene was virtually a black landscape."
We are writing an informative article. We are expected to reflect what sources find important. The above is just one of many sources to be found calling attention to Adam Yauch's Jewishness. It distinguishes him in the area in which his notability is established. Bus stop (talk) 14:37, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
Veritycheck—I think reliable sources should figure into the consideration process. As they all say that he is Jewish why should we deny him inclusion in Category:American Jews? Bus stop (talk) 19:41, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
Yes, you're right, User:Bus stop. And BLPCAT doesn't apply since the person is deceased. WP:CAT/R says, "For a dead person, there must be a verified consensus of reliable published sources that the description is appropriate" (BTW, Why did you choose such an ugly username?).  Brendon is here 10:37, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
Please be so kind as to point me to the "consensus of reliable published sources that the description is appropriate." I'd like to verify it. Thanks Veritycheck (talk) 13:11, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
While I may be able to point to some websites which indicate that Adam Yauch maintained Jewish traditions and never converted to any other religion, I suggest you ask this question to user Night Ranger contact, Bus stop contact, Burpelson AFB contact or Wikifan contact, they are more knowledgeable in these matters than I am. And IMO, they have already cited such websites so far in this lengthy discussion (One lies just above you). Thank you.  Brendon is here 14:18, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
He was repeatedly referred to as a Jewish rapper or artist or hip hopper by Forbes and such. And about the speculation of his conversion to buddhism this article addresses the issue of his personal religious adherence pretty explicitly. It stated, “The 27-year-old Jewish-born rapper wants to maintain his Jewish traditions and calls the conversion spiritual, rather than religious.”

Hence, IMO, he was unmistakably a Jew and FYI, “Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons” doesn't really apply to this situation.  Brendon is here 14:55, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

In Adam Yauch’s own words:
“I wasn't raised with any religion, really. My mom was raised Jewish, and my dad was raised Catholic. Neither of them was too excited about the religious stuff they were brought up on, so they decided that they wouldn't raise me with any religion.” Additionally, “From about '92 on, I studied Tibetan Buddhism exclusively. I became a Buddhist around '96.”
From those comments, it doesn’t seem that he saw himself as a Jewish poster boy for American Jews as some would have it appear here. It seems both disrespectful and disingenuous to categorize him in such a way considering what his own beliefs were. What a shame he can’t weigh in on the discussion himself. R.I.P. Veritycheck (talk) 16:21, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
Yes, Yauch had a more secular upbringing, so? He is talking about spirituality not religious conversion. Two are quite different. My sources expressly say that his transformation was not religious but spiritual. And He was maintaining "Jewish Tradition".
Jews are an ethnoreligious group. Here, people are not talking about Jewishness as related to Judaism but they are pointing towards the aspect of inheriting Jewishness as a part of his ethnicity, so is it fatuous to claim that he was a Jewbu? I don't think so. Like there are Buddhist Americans or Buddhist Afro-Americans (I'm assuming there are), can't he be called a Jewish Buddhist (Just like Robert Downey, Jr., Goldie Hawn, etc)? I don't know, you decide.

I'm just trying to get to the bottom of this thing, you know.

For your kind information, I've nothing against Buddhism or Jews or Judaism or Catholicism. I adore Dalai Lama. I love Israel, I love Nepal, almost as much as I love USA. I pray for the well-being of the oppressed Tibetans. Thank you. Cheers .  Brendon is here 22:46, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

  • Oppose Why is anything but what Yauch said about himself relevant? He self-identified as Buddhist. CityOfSilver 17:20, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment Yauch is Jewish because his mother is Jewish. Beastie Boys have been described as a Jewish hip-hop band by loads of reliable sources. Not a single reliable source has questioned his status as Jew, nor did Yauch ever suggest he wasn't Jewish. Ethnicity is not the same as religion. Does Barack Obama need to declare himself as African-American to be African-American? Remember, only one of his parents was African-American. Guess that means he is only of African descent, right? Or are there two standards? WikifanBe nice 23:25, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
And Buddhism is more like a sophisticated philosophy than a religion. Although it has some aspects of religion, it doesn't necessitate belief in a particular type of personal GOD, or religious conversion. There are Chrstian Buddhists. Heck, there are even atheists who are Buddhists, so I think it should not seem as a problem to call him a Jewish Buddhist.  Brendon is here 23:33, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
    • Ethnicity and religion are complex and nuanced issues. If you can post Yauch is Jewish because his mother is Jewish after the discussion we have had, you should not be editing here. Do you think the Obama article is a good comparison? On the contrary, we only call him African-American because he self-identifies as such and the great majority of sources discussing him also use this label. Go and read the FAQ at Talk:Barack Obama/FAQ if you doubt me. Please show some sensitivity if you can for this artist who has recently died and who still has grieving relatives, friends and fans. If he did not consider himself a Jew, why should we force the label onto his memory as soon as he dies? --John (talk) 23:36, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
  • "we only call him African-American because he self-identifies as" - Really? I'm wondering what your response would be if he had identified himself as a caucasian? Ethnicity, I think, has something to do with your genetic constitution and it can't be changed, no matter what. I don't know what User:Wikifan's answer would be, but that's how I feel about the issue. Thank you.  Brendon is here 23:48, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
Barack Obama is a great example because it shows ethnicity does not = religion. Barack Obama is an African-American because reliable sources say he is an African-American. He doesn't need to "self-identify" - he just is. And just because he is African-American, doesn't mean he supports Black theology. John, it's very challenging to understand your philosophy considering the dubious edits made at Jeremy Piven and Vidal Sassoon. There is nothing sinister or controversial about being Jewish. IF reliable sources have stated Yauch is Jewish, what gives us - editors - the right to deny that? Do editors have sources suggesting Yauch divorced his status as a Jew? WikifanBe nice 00:00, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
“IF reliable sources have stated Yauch is Jewish, what gives us - editors - the right to deny that?” - Exactly. The thing is, ethnicity doesn't depend on people's self-identification.  Brendon is here 17:00, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

“Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.”

Reform Judaism views Jews who convert to another faith as non-Jews.

Both of these are pertinent when considering the fact, "I became a Buddhist around '96," as stated by Adam Yauch himself. Veritycheck (talk) 00:16, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

You've got to be kidding me. Hahahaha!!! There are Jewish atheists for heaven's sake. It's not about religious beliefs, it's about ethnicity. Jews are a homogeneous ethnoreligious group. So?  Brendon is here 00:25, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
Quite the opposite; I don’t kid about human rights. Your response seems to indicate that you don’t believe that Jews who have changed religion are protected by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Human rights are not exclusive to any group. Nor is any group excluded from the protection they afford. Adam Yauch was neither raised as a Jew nor practised as one by his own admission. He did, in fact, become a Buddhist and die as one. Respecting such a deeply personal decision is certainly no laughing matter. Veritycheck (talk) 01:18, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
I don’t kid about human rights. - of course you don't. But it's just that you're virtually pirouetting around ethnic identity.  Brendon is here 01:37, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
Um, is wikipedia bound by UN declarations? Verity, there is no evidence that Yauch practiced Judaism in the first place. According to the article, he received "non-religious upbringing." Not surprising, may American Jews are secular and don't practice Judaism. BUT, Yauch is ethnically Jewish by virtue of birth. WikifanBe nice 01:52, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
Um, no, but we do have something called WP:BLP and the subsection WP:BLPCAT which governs situations like this. So luckily those of us who understand the policies don't need to think it all through ab initio each time a situation like this arises. It is a complex and nuanced area. Perhaps anybody who thinks it is simple hasn't properly thought it through yet. --John (talk) 19:27, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
Adam Yauch Genetic Irish (half) Genetic Jew (half) - [citation needed] - Youreallycan 20:30, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
John, can anyone provide sources suggesting Yauch is not Jewish? Anyone? We do have something called BLP, and John you made numerous attempts to remove Jeremy Piven and Sassoon status as Jews. Reliable sources exist showing Yauch is Jewish, his band is described as a Jewish hip-rop band. BLPCAT does not apply to ethnicity. What subsection supports your position, which I'm not particularly certain other than your desire to prevent any category stating Yauch is a Jewish - though Jewish "descent" is acceptable even though his mother is Jewish. @Youreallycan, not sure if you are being sarcastic and making jokes about people's ethnicity (not cool!) but wikipedia has Irish Jews. WikifanBe nice 21:08, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
Not joking in any way - you mention Irish Jews but Yauch is not an Irish Jew so ? ... - Youreallycan 21:13, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
If sources state Yauch is Jewish (ethnically), we have a responsibility to include it in the article. BLPcat does not cover ethnicity, and Jewish is listed under List of ethnic groups. What more is needed to resolve this dispute? WikifanBe nice 21:18, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
This dispute is already resolved, the subject is rightly placed in the American people of Jewish descent cat, all it needs is for you to move along.- Youreallycan 21:21, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
Move along? Tell me again how is of "Jewish descent" and not Jewish? In a genre dominated by African-Americans, they were three white Jewish kids from Brooklyn, New York.. Where does it say Jewish "descent?" WikifanBe nice 21:32, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
Yea, move along - WP:BLP encourages us to have higher standards in regards to caricaturisation than opinionated and vague externals - Youreallycan 21:37, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
Stop telling me to move along. I don't understand why Jewish descent is acceptable, but Jewish American is not. WikifanBe nice 21:44, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
Its a simple matter of weight - and respect really - tell it in the content/article body - talk the walk - don't categorize weakly - Youreallycan 21:47, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
So American Jew is undue but Jewish descent is acceptable? The Jewish descent category is weak because it is not consistent with what the sources tell us. If the tribune said Yauch and his bandmates were a band of "Jewish descent" I could understand. WikifanBe nice 23:45, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Support: Oy! Enough already! Wwwhatsup (talk) 18:09, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment: Not everyone considers Judaism to be an ethnicity as well as a religion. And not everyone likes having multiple labels. I do not consider myself a Jewish Atheist because I was raised Jewish and am of Jewish descent. I am an atheist. I am not Jewish. The above conversation notes his conversion to Buddhism. Why do we not accept that? If someone renounces citizenship or quits a job we do not still identify them as "American" or a "McDonald's Employee" for life. We have terms(and categories) for that. I do not understand why Judaism is different. Ayzmo (talk) 19:12, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
Jewish is an ethnicity and the wikipedia community has long as accepted that. Any argument suggesting otherwise doesn't belong here. See Jewish atheism. WikifanBe nice 19:32, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
Yes but half of this persons ancestors were nothing to do with Jewish at all, they were Irish Catholics - Weight is important in BLP articles (all articles actually) , what about that half of his ancestors? - We have a responsibility to report to the majority that have no understanding at all about the matriarchal line that a half of this persons relatives are not Jewish - Youreallycan 20:14, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
What about it youreallycan? All we can report on is was reliable sources tell us, and multiple RS have said Yauch is Jewish. WikifanBe nice 20:28, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
WP:BLP requires a little more than your position "All we can report on is was reliable sources tell us" - Clearly we are requested to report with a degree of sensitivity and weight - There are these vague externals is of little value moving forward. Youreallycan 20:53, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
Agreed. BLP doesn't give editors authorization to say who and who is not a Jew. Your claims of "weight" are unfounded - there is nothing undue about including Yauch status as a Jew. Do you have evidence that he is an Irish Jew? This whole "half-Jew" philosophy isn't supported by any sources that I am aware of, so it cannot be used in the article. WikifanBe nice 21:25, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
Having vague comments in externals is not an excuse to add disputed content to a BLP " Half Jew isn't supported by any sources that I am aware of, so it cannot be used in the article" - That's where WP:BLP, a wikipedia policy asks us to go the additional step - He is not an Irish Jew at all, you brought that up and the claim is nothing to do with me - but his Father and all his fathers genetic historic relatives are descended from an Irish Catholic- why deny that?. Youreallycan 21:45, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
Irish catholic is not an ethnicity, Jewish is. Why deny that? What is vague about sources describing Yauch as Jewish and being part of a Jewish hip-hop band? WikifanBe nice 21:53, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
Half - that needs to be clear and that is the problem with these cats - Attributions - John Harrison in the The Jewish post opined that the beastie boys were .. bla bla - Youreallycan 22:01, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
User:Youreallycan—a person has various facets to their identity. The notion that Yauch is either a Buddhist or a Jew is unbecoming of an encyclopedia that aims for a global perspective and it is an unnecessary notion because Yauch can be in both categories if that is supported by reliable sources, and he clearly belongs in both categories because indeed both facets are reliably sourced as being applicable to Yauch. There is nothing unusual about a Jew being a Buddhist. We are expected to maintain a global perspective. Orthodox Jews are not the only Jews. Nonobservant Jews happen to be Jews also—if reliable sources can be produced to support that they are Jewish. The salient point is that reliable sources are saying that Yauch is Jewish. Why would this facet of Yauch not be accurately reflected in our Wikipedia article? He is in Category:American Buddhists. He should also be in Category:American Jews. You and others are merely stating your personal opinions in the absence of sources. You have argued here and on the BLP-Noticeboard that Yauch should not be in Category:American Jews. I think your arguments have been rejected as being out-of-step with basic Wikipedia content policies: reliable sources tell us whether or not someone is Jewish. The opinions of editors do not determine content and consequently the opinions of editors do not determine categorization. The opinions of editors at Wikipedia should not be allowed to trump over a multitude of reliable sources that tell us that Yauch is Jewish. Your argument against inclusion in Category:American Jews is not an argument accompanied by sources. That argument is antithetical to the global perspective that we endeavor to maintain. Such arguments are merely emanating from a handful of editors at Wikipedia in the absence sources. In the absence of any sources to the contrary we should be abiding by what sources are telling us: that Adam Yauch is Jewish, hence he obviously should be categorized as an American Jew. Bus stop (talk) 18:55, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
Half of his ancestors are Irish, we/BLP requests us to - need to present that in the correct weight. - As for your comment here in regard to my position, "I think your arguments have been rejected as being out-of-step with basic Wikipedia content policies" - I note that you have previously been seriously restricted thought Arbitration in relation to your position in regards to Jewish-ethnicity issues - Youreallycan 19:01, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
User Bus Stop - Providing a reliable source that states he is a Jewish Buddhist would be equally valuable here. We have yet to see one. You are asking for other editors to provide sources that he is not a Jewish Buddhist but have failed yourself to provide a source stating that he is one. Sources have been presented, namely a direct quote from him, where he clearly identified himself as a Buddhist. He did not state that he was Jewish nor a Jewish Buddhist. He did, in fact, add on the record that he had no Jewish upbringing whatsoever and added that he did not even know what a “matzoh” [sic] was while growing up. You need to hold yourself to the same standards that you expect from others regarding citations.
Additionally, reform Jews consider those who have converted to other faiths as “non-Jews”. Finally, the whole notion/concept of Jewish identity being established by birth with a single parent being Jewish regardless of the other parent’s faith and without taking into account what the child of such a union identifies himself as is, at best, a Jewish belief system. It does not represent opinion outside this niche. We have a citation that describes Adam as a converted Buddhist in his own words. Produce a reliable citation where he identifies himself as a Jewish American if you wish to label him so. If you can, we are good to go; if not, let it rest. Veritycheck (talk) 20:51, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
I've been doing a lot more research on this through various articles and it seems to me that "Jewish" as an ethnicity works even less given the wide spread. It is like using Asian rather than Chinese or Mongolian. Why aren't we using Ashkenazim or Sephardim? The differences between these groups are vast. And another question. Wikipedia defines Ethnicity as "a common heritage, consisting of a common culture, including a shared language or dialect. The group's ethos or ideology may also stress common ancestry, religion, or race." He denies being raised with any sense of Jewishness which gets rid of the culture, language, and religion. I believe most people deny the idea of a Jewish race. So we fall on ancestry to define him?(not to mention matrimonial descent is not agreed upon by all branches of Judaism) I'm rather confused by this. I feel like we're doing some bizarre hypodescent experiment when it really doesn't matter since it clearly was not important to him. Ayzmo (talk) 21:58, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
User:Youreallycan—you say:
"Asserting attribution to a recently deceased person - (or a longer dead person for that matter imo) that they themselves have denied is a violation of WP:NPOV as a minimum".
User:Youreallycan—have you encountered a source in which Adam Yauch denies being a Jew? Bus stop (talk) 23:56, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
User:John—you say:
"If he did not consider himself a Jew, why should we force the label onto his memory as soon as he dies?"
User:John—have you encountered a source in which Adam Yauch expresses that he does not consider himself a Jew? Bus stop (talk) 23:56, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
No they have not. Numerous sources confirm Yauch is Jewish, that he a member of a Jewish hip-hop band, and not to sound redundant but his mother is Jewish. Buddhism is not an ethnicity, Jewish is. Just because he converted to Buddhism does not nullify his status as a Jew, and we as editors cannot assume he did not consider himself Jewish just because he is a Buddhist - see Jewish Buddhist. Ayzmo - user research doesn't matter. Wikipedia community has long considered Jewish to be an ethnicity and unless an individual born Jewish explicitly forfeits his status as a Jew we cannot assume he isn't Jewish. I have a hard time taking some of John's philosophy seriously considering his edits at Jeremy Piven and Vidal Sassoon. WikifanBe nice 00:59, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Beastie Boys ... The Final Years

http://vimeo.com/porkys1982/beastie-boys-the-final-years

Beastie Boys ... The Final Years

Adam Yauch : A Tribute To MCA & The Last Beastie Boys Concert

Directed By Ben Escobedo Porkys1982

http://vimeo.com/porkys1982/beastie-boys-the-final-years — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.57.74.192 (talk) 14:59, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

No sunglasses please

Please pick another photo, else I can't match him with his early videos. 99% of http://www.google.com/search?q=adam+yauch&tbm=isch don't have sunglasses! Jidanni (talk) 19:17, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

I second this. With the glasses, it seems like he is blind or something.  Brendon is here 10:42, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

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