Talk:Ahmed Zayat

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Good articleAhmed Zayat has been listed as one of the Sports and recreation good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
June 5, 2015Good article nomineeListed

Controversies section[edit]

There is a need to consider adding material on the controversies currently surrounding Zayat. I will put in the source materials and discussion about how to create a section that is in line with WP:BLP can occur here. Montanabw(talk) 18:38, 22 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Other sources:

The Asmussen stuff has to be handled very carefully, as the PTEA video was found to have been doctored...

~~Every article concerning Mr. Zayat has noted controversy and there are many.

From claiming a Harvard education to the bankruptcy case, all of it should be there. The current article is a marketers' dream and not reflective of media coverage or truth. Truthavhar13 (talk) 09:33, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the links. These matter deserve inclusion, but there's a WP:NPOV balance to be found between breathless press release and gelding hatchet attack. Let's try together to find it.Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 13:51, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I added all the links for us all to use! ;-) I agree that the original article was worded mostly like a promo piece. Basically, I've worked on it up to the first paragraph of the "Thoroughbred Horse Racing" section (You can tell where I've stopped by where the consistent footnoting ends). I tossed the claims about Harvard altogether, they can't be verified but there is also no real use pointing out that the claim used to be made unless someone can find in a WP:RS a smoking gun that Zayat claimed it himself (as opposed to it just being repeated in the press a lot) There's a little bit about the bankruptcy buried in there and the article does need to note the controversies. It's just how. Montanabw(talk) 05:52, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Smoking gun regarding Harvard as requested above.

Ahmed has controversy everywhere that's what dominates his story and the bankruptcy is barely noted and so is the legion of lawsuits in mainstream media coverage. http://observer.com/2015/05/american-pharoah-owner-accused-of-being-a-welcher-perjurer-resume-padder/ Truthavhar13 (talk) 10:06, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

http://observer.com/2015/05/american-pharoah-owner-accused-of-being-a-welcher-perjurer-resume-padder/

  • The problem is that The Observer is a tabloid, they aren't exactly a RS. They source to an attack site for Zayat that has excerpts from a deposition, but no proof it isn't a fake. What we need is stuff like actual court decisions from a neutral source (the Smoking Gun web site would work, they post real stuff as far as I know). I recommend that you sandbox a paragraph here about the bankruptcy stuff (which is legit) and maybe the federal lawsuit by the guy who is himself indicted for gambling violations (which is dubious, but newsworthy). Per WP:BLP

    "Contentious material about living persons... that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion...Biographies of living persons ("BLPs") must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives; the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment. "

    For that reason, we must tread carefully. Montanabw(talk) 01:59, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm having trouble finding suitable language for the article, or maybe the stomach to take this on. Who is to say there isn't something opportunistic in a lawsuit filed by an ex-con, long after the civil statute of limitations has passed (and at a time when the defendant is getting extraordinary attention for his racing successes), in which the plaintiff apparently cannot produce a written contract? I think the following Daily News article adopts a better tone, one we might consider emulating:
http://m.nydailynews.com/sports/more-sports/american-pharoah-owner-ahmed-zayat-sued-gambling-debt-article-1.2230351
No doubt Zayat is a big risk taker with some very human flaws, but it says something, to me at least, that Bob Baffert (per the article) was a named creditor in Zayat's 2010 bankruptcy, but returned to train American Pharoah. — Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 13:24, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • {[ping|Vesuvius Dogg}} You make a good point; if we eliminated every gambler from horse racing, there'd be no one left! I say that WP:BLP applies and if you can be so kind as to help clean up the mess that the horse breeding stuff is in (it's kind of a laundry list and unsourced to boot), I'll take on the negative press; I think I can handle it without running afoul of NPOV. Montanabw(talk) 16:32, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Will do. I didn't set out to go crazy like that, but it became very interesting (and then I "piled on..."). I'll source it up and let the prose breathe out a bit. I'm hoping that Wikipedia, as sometimes happens, actually prompts articles on APh's interesting bloodline, because so many initially dismissed him based on his unimpressive dam and damsire. There's much more to the story, as it turns out — Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 18:12, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I've now fully footnoted American Pharoah's pedigree section, and painstaking doesn't begin to describe it. Would appreciate your copyedit in exchange for mine (forthcoming). I like your tone and take, BTW. — Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 16:47, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's why I love NPOV; let the story tell itself, be through, try to find all sides, follow WP:RS. Amazing how well that can work out! (Wish more people would try it sometime!) Montanabw(talk) 17:23, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Encouragement goes a long way, too. I'm definitely outside my wheelhouse, writing about bloodlines and such, and have drawn inspiration from your support. You don't need to use a whip! Anyway, without poring too deeply over the source material, I didn't find much awry in my Zayat copyedit. We still haven't tackled that Harvard résumé thing, oy vey, but can probably dispatch it in a line or two. Most of all I appreciate that your overall take on the "Controversies" leaves the subject's dignity intact. There is much to admire in bringing a horse like American Pharoah to his potential. And so much that goes unsaid. — Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 23:34, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I really don't know if it's worth mentioning the Harvard thing. I tossed any mention of it in the article, though as it does get repeated, I suppose it needs to be popped in somewhere. Thoughts as to where? I agree, maybe one sentence along the line of "Zayat's web site used to state he had attended Harvard, but was removed when the University said they have no record of his having attended." (?) Zayat reminds me of other entrepreneurs who grew up in the Third World and made their way to the US, he was more fortunate than most. Montanabw(talk) 03:18, 27 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That sentence works for me. And by the way, he also comes off in interviews, particularly related to the gambling case(s) but also in the bankruptcy coverage, as contrite about his compulsive high-stakes risk-taking behavior. Interestingly, he concedes that betting on horse races is essentially a loser's game, that the house always gets its cut, etc.—and yet that knowledge hasn't stopped him! I don't know just how or where that contrition might fit into the article yet, but it does help establish him, with its inherent contradictions, as almost a literary figure, like something a Rushdie might have dreamt up, fortunate, flawed, and all-too-human Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 04:29, 27 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Colorful" and "flamboyant" seem to work. What's interesting is no evidence of personal vices other than a penchant for risk-taking and a real hyperactive personality. So where's the best spot to put the Harvard thing...? I'm prone to mention it in passing and then move on. It's not like he tried to get a job as a college professor or something where it would matter. Montanabw(talk) 06:10, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thought you might appreciate this page with photographs of Ma'adi villas, including Zayat's father's house. —Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 14:44, 1 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Wow! Cool find! I don't know if that site will pass WP:RS, but I wish it did! Montanabw(talk) 17:04, 1 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
A worthwhile read in Sports Illustrated, on this day when Zayat is getting hit with a libel suit. SI calls him "ebullient" and "combative". And a lot of fun to be around, according to Baffert. —Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 20:32, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Heh, one can go down a rabbit hole updating an article in live time, can't you? LOL! Basically, as Dr. Blofeld can tell you from the California Chrome FAC, a person tends to put in every nuance at the time, but a few months later you go, "did we really need that bit about the Possum?" Montanabw(talk) 05:40, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I know, Possum infestations are one my biggest Featured Article "pet peeves"! Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 16:06, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

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Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Ahmed Zayat/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Dr. Blofeld (talk · contribs) 20:32, 1 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]


Give me a few days...♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:32, 1 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Lede
  • I'd place "Egyptian" before entrepreneur at the top.
  • "one of the most successful and flamboyant owners in thoroughbred racing" I'd move that nearer the top and attribute it. "" Something like:

Ahmed Zayat (born August 31, 1962) is an Egyptian entrepreneur and owner of Thoroughbred race horses. He currently serves as the CEO of Zayat Stables, LLC, a Thoroughbred horse racing business which has bred horses such as American Pharoah, the winner of the 2015 Kentucky Derby and Preakness Stakes. As a result of his achievements he has been cited by xx as "one of the most successful and flamboyant owners in thoroughbred racing".

He was born in Cairo should be new paragraph then and merged into the other.

  • "Derailed by Chapter 11 bankruptcy proceedings he filed in 2010 to prevent a bank from foreclosing on his horses when they called a note due, and plagued by legal issues related to his penchant for betting large sums of money on horse racing, Zayat nonetheless emerged from bankruptcy and generated considerable positive publicity for his efforts to save his racehorse Paynter from life-threatening health problems, a sucessful struggle that earned the colt the 2012 NTRA Moment of the Year Award and Secretariat Vox Populi Award." -that's a massive sentence! I'm not sure you need to say all that in the lede anyway.
    • Rewrote a bit. The bit about all the bankruptcy and gambling stuff has been in the news - someone called it "the New York Times' annual hatchet job on horse racing" and one of the lawsuits was only dismissed yesterday or early today, so it's hot. See if my rewrite improved matters. (Montanabw(talk) 23:03, 4 June 2015 (UTC))[reply]
Early career
  • "in a suburb of Cairo called Maadi" =the southern Cairo suburb of Maadi
    • Can't verify "southern" from source, but I'll reword otherwise (Montanabw(talk) 23:03, 4 June 2015 (UTC))[reply]
  • "He obtained a master's degree in public health administration from Boston University" -when?
    • Don't know. Another bit of dirt is that "his web site claimed for a time" that he had graduated from Harvard. It's fuzzy. (Montanabw(talk) 23:03, 4 June 2015 (UTC))[reply]
  • "They purchased " -they? With Wolfson?
    • I think whatever that problem was, it has been rewritten (?) Is it OK now? (Montanabw(talk) 23:03, 4 June 2015 (UTC))[reply]

"Zayat lives in Teaneck, New Jersey with his wife, Joanne. The couple have four children: Justin, Ashley, Benjamin, and Emma. The girls were the inspiration for the names of two race horses, Point Ashley, who in turn inspired daughter Ashley's costume jewelry business name; and Littleprincessemma, dam of American Pharoah. Justin, a 2015 graduate of New York University, works closely with his father in the Zayat Stables business.[1] Race horse Justin Phillip was named for Justin. While residing primarily in New Jersey, the Zayats also have residences in New York, Egypt, and London.[5] The family are Orthodox Jews; Zayat's Hebrew name is Ephraim (אפרים), which is often used by family and community.[1][7] Zayat donates to Jewish schools and charities, including those that help special needs children.[6]"

I feel uncomfortable reading about his wife and kids before knowing anything about his horse career, consider moving this paragraph to a personal life section at the bottom and rename it Early life and career.

    • I can toss the bit on the horse names and move those into the next section, that is, admittedly, clunky. As for moving the rest to the bottom, I respectfully disagree, I've tried doing the "split the family from the early career and birth family" thing before, and it's really awkward. Besides, to be honest, I think that knowing who the person is helps understand his notability and accomplishments better. Split the difference and call it good?  ;-) (Montanabw(talk) 23:03, 4 June 2015 (UTC))[reply]
Zayat Stables
  • Avoid starting paragraphs with "His"
    • True, but trying not to start multiple paragraphs with "Zayat" - tweaked some, is it better now? (Montanabw(talk) 23:03, 4 June 2015 (UTC))[reply]
  • Todd Pletcher,Dale Romans -watch gap
  • "As of 2015 the operation stands 13 breeding stallions at stud.[14] As of 2015" -rep of as of 2015
    • Did a slight rephrase... Both numbers seem to change annually... Better? ( Montanabw(talk) 23:03, 4 June 2015 (UTC))[reply]
  • "Zayat's Triple Crown race losing-streak was finally broken by American Pharoah, who won the 2015 Kentucky Derby and the 2015 Preakness Stakes." -significant wins, I think you should elaborate a bit more on this.
Litigation
  • "and he faced " -he has faced?
    • Prefer active voice to passive voice where possible. (Montanabw(talk) 23:03, 4 June 2015 (UTC))[reply]
  • OVERLINK of Chapter 11
Gambling
  • Link New Jersey Federal District Court
  • A tad too much detail I think, seems to be more on his legal cases than horse work. Can you trim Litigation and gambling a bit if you can?♦ Dr. Blofeld 08:59, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Tough to trim because the legal stuff is in RL also threatening to overshadow his horse racing stuff... he's been in the game only about 10 years and is trouncing people who have been at it for a lifetime. He's made some serious enemies... all part of being "flamboyant." Drape just did another hatchet job on Zayat today, in fact: [1] I'm open to ways I can expand the horse racing section or anything that jumped out at you as needing to be chopped in the legal section, plus will do a copyedit of that section to see if I can see choppable stuff myself. Give me about 30 min from my signature timestamp to tweak and then tell me if it's OK. Montanabw(talk) 23:03, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

  1. Is it reasonably well written?
    A. Prose quality:
    B. MoS compliance:
  2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
    A. References to sources:
    B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:
    C. No original research:
  3. Is it broad in its coverage?
    A. Major aspects:
    B. Focused:
  4. Is it neutral?
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. Is it stable?
    No edit wars, etc:
  6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
    A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
    B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
  7. Overall:
    Pass or Fail:

Looks in good order for GA.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:50, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Jewish?[edit]

The part about him being Jewish is sourced to the New Jersey Jewish Standard, which seems to be saying that his current family in the U.S. is Orthodox Jewish – probably because he married a certifiably Jewish wife. However, regarding his own birth, no source is provided for his mother being Jewish. Since his father and grandfather are clearly Arab, according to Islam, he is Arab, too. It's hard to believe that he grew up in "a Jewish family" with an Arab father. Yoninah (talk) 14:29, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

True his background is more complicated than the article implies. From the New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/05/sports/american-pharoah-cant-erase-all-of-ahmed-zayats-missteps.html Patapsco913 (talk) 14:47, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It was this sort of forward thinking that led Mr. Zayat to name his $4.6 million colt Maimonides, after Moses Maimonides, considered to be among the greatest Jewish philosophers. As a Muslim, he said at the time: “I wanted to say something with the tool I had, which was a horse. I wanted it to be pro-peace, and about loving your neighbor.”
  • "Publicly, Mr. Zayat alternately identifies as Muslim and Jewish. In fact, Mr. Zayat, who graduated from Yeshiva University, has given amply to Jewish causes. He lives with his wife and four children in a largely modern Orthodox neighborhood of Tudor and Victorian houses known as West Englewood in Teaneck, N.J. They keep kosher, arranging menus in advance at racetracks and, if they cannot locate a hotel close by, they stay in an R.V. and walk to the track, as they did at the Preakness Stakes, to avoid driving on the Sabbath."
  • "“It’s a very wonderful, kind family — very active, very generous,” said Steven Pruzansky, his rabbi at Congregation Bnai Yeshurun, one of more than a dozen Orthodox synagogues in Teaneck. When asked for clarification about his religion, Mr. Zayat said: “Why is it relevant, and why does it matter? It’s personal.”
Faith is complicated. But I thought it unwarranted to remove "Category: Egyptian Jews" on the basis that his father might be Arab, given that we KNOW he is Egyptian, KNOW he is an observant, Orthodox Jew and not merely making some rhetorical identification in that regard. Does the category itself imply that he came from an Egyptian Jewish family, or merely that he fits the category himself? I removed "Jewish" from the lede because NPOV frowns on defining anyone as a "Jewish, Egyptian-American entrepreneur", as if to imply "Jewish" were the first and most important biographical adjective trumping everything else about him. It is true that we know little about his family upbringing. He obviously made some sort of early choice, well before meeting his wife, in selecting to attend Yeshiva at age 18. I do think incorporating the more nuanced reporting so far from The New York Times would be helpful to readers. — Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 15:24, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I understand that faith is a relative thing nowadays. You could replace the category Egyptian Jews. It would be nice to add a sentence or two about his identification with Judaism and decision to attend Yeshiva University in the early life section, rather than skirting around it and leaving it unclear whether he is halakhically Jewish through his mother. Yoninah (talk) 16:16, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That he has publicly identified as both Jewish and Muslim is important, and I'll incorporate that using the New York Times as a source. I think the halakha understanding of Zayat as an "Egyptian Jew" is still an open question until and unless Zayat says more about his family origins. So I'm dancing around the category and well aware of the possible false conclusions a reader might draw for lack of having better information. Thanks for raising the point. Will do my best — Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 16:56, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. The last sentence that you added, about him identifying as both Jewish and Muslim, referencing the New York Times, is perfect. Yoninah (talk) 19:24, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Muslim and Jewish? In Cairo, that's called an exacta!
—Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 22:55, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It is indeed strange, but you are making things even more ambiguous by putting "Jewish" in the same class as "Arab" as identity determinants in this discussion, for "Arab" is an ethnicity while "Jew" is a religion. There are christian Arabs, jewish Arabs, in addition to muslim Arabs, you know,among many oteh religions. Being Arab is not an indication of religion, or lack thereof.
Moreover, his mother's religion aside (which i have no idea about), his grand father, Ahmad Hassan AlZayyat, was a known intellectual figure of the Arab world. He was born in 1885, studied in AlAzhar, and the founder of Al Resala magazine in 1933, one of the leading literary magazines of its time in the Arab world which ran for 20 years, before becoming the editor in chief of AlAzhar magazine. He was also a member of the Cairo, Baghdad and Damascus Magma's of Arabic Language
Starting from this part of the history family should make it easier.
--A. Gharbeia (talk) 22:44, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • @أحمد: If you can provide and good English language sources for your information that would be useful, as Google isn't... the multiple spellings that render the Arabic names into English are wreaking havoc here. Being Arab and Jewish makes sense; being Muslim and Jewish does not. Montanabw(talk) 20:40, 16 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • @Montanabw: I restored a couple footnotes on Ahmad Hasan al-Zayyat relating to his importance as a publisher as well as intellectual and writer. Am inclined to create an independent entry for him if we can find more online sources (since I noted you Googling around the al-Zayyat surname). Hope you'll support me with that. I'm sure Ahmed Zayat's family background is as interesting to others as it is to us, so am leaning on the inclusionary side when it comes to footnotes for his grandfather. His Azhari education and allegiance does seem significant, judging from the Dictionary of African Biography entry, though perhaps not important enough to include in his grandson's entry. —Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 23:22, 16 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
        • I agree to add them both in, I just did it a bit differently (I explained at your talk what I was up to) I do agree that we need a WP article on the grandfather and that the source material was relevant, but we cannot say that Zayat "claimed" to be Muslim until we can find a RS that catches him red-handed saying so; all we have is Drape stating Zayat was Muslim; and if we know one thing about Zayat, we know he's perfectly willing to let people think what they want to think without actually saying so out loud (if I can find an actual copy of his deposition where he claimed to have attended Harvard, that's fair game, but so far the only copy I can find is on an attack site, so not RS for a BLP). Montanabw(talk) 23:40, 16 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK, here's the deal: Though Zayat clearly has a penchant for spinning tales, and in one source I ran across, I came across a comment that he's pretty quick to tweak his identity to get along with people who can do business, he's clearly Jewish. The Boston Globe] calls him "a Cairo-born Jew"; the Jewish Standard - which did repeat the Harvard thing, but probably would mention if he converted, explains, "Although most Jews in Egypt left the country in the 1950s — when its ruler, Gamal Abdel Nasser, made it clear that their lives were likely to be longer, healthier, and happier were they to live them elsewhere — “some affluent Jews stayed, for various reasons,” Joanne Zayat said. That group included Ahmed Zayat’s family." I'll leave the category out, but I think the weight of the evidence is clear. Also clear is that Joe Drape doesn't particularly like the man. Montanabw(talk) 06:39, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

jewish is fine but how can one even CLAIM to be "orthodox" when all these races are on saturdays?

he may have BELONGED to various orthodox synagogues, but if he's not really following the rules, how about changing the article to read "devout".

even that is kind of iffy, but it's a tad better than the alternative "non-practicing orthodox".

btw -- where did my PRIOR section to this effect go?! someone deletes my stuff and then goes and asks the SAME questions?! wtf? 209.172.23.231 (talk) 02:40, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • I don't see any particular prohibition in mainstream Orthodox (as opposed to Ultra-Orthodox) Judaism about on watching horse races or gambling, but even if someone says there is, we can only go where the sources go, and sources say "the family" identifies as Orthodox, (and no one says Zayat is "devout") plus it definitely is not ours as wikipedia editors to judge if they are perfectly following all "the rules" or not. (Similarly, would we remove Catholic identify from someone because they skipped communion? No) And, FWIW, they actually went to great lengths to keep "the rules" when they parked an RV in the parking lot at Pimlico and had food brought in so that they did not violate the Sabbath by driving to the track. They also stayed in a hotel close enough to Churchill Downs that they could walk to the Derby. Perhaps that is relevant to this article and should be added? Montanabw(talk) 18:55, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well, per MOS:IDENTITY "When there is a discrepancy between the term most commonly used by reliable sources for a person or group and the term that person or group uses for themselves, Wikipedia should use the term that is most commonly used by reliable sources; if it isn't clear which is most used, use the term that the person or group uses." Unless there is a majority of sources saying he's Muslim, do we not have to take his word for it as a general matter? We can certainly footnote the issue and present the varying sources, of course.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:15, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think we pretty much did; two articles in the New York Times are relevant, one from several years ago where he apparently said he was Muslim (or the NYT said he was) and a more recent one mentioning the one from several years ago. All other sources say he is an Orthodox Jew, at least culturally (not sure where gambling sits there...) and the overwhelming weight of the evidence backs this up - Yeshiva University, his post-college employer, his family, his community, his charitable donations... Montanabw(talk) 19:59, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

About the grandfather[edit]

We should do up an article on Ahmad Hassan Al-Zayyat (1885-1968), the grandfather of Ahmed Zayat. Interesting guy, definitely notable. Parking sources I've found here for future reference. Some of these have just brief mentions, search for "Zayyat" or "Risala" (the "al" is sometimes hyphenated, sometimes not) Montanabw(talk) 06:09, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Very interesting and helpful sources, particularly the detail in #3 (though I haven't gone through everything yet). I'd recommend "Ahmad Hasan al-Zayyat" as the article's preferred spelling. Thanks for all this. —Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 12:16, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Definitely two y's in "Zayyat", that's pretty consistent across sources. As for two s's in "Hassan" or "Hasan", I'd say go with what the majority of sources do; I don't read Arabic at all and so how the characters are translated into the Latin alphabet is not something I have any knowledge of at all. The article could be created in a sandbox off of your user page or mine or if created with one spelling, the title could be changed as sources develop. Montanabw(talk) 05:19, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sandboxing[edit]

As soon as this link goes blue, I will have started a sandbox for article on al-Zayyat: User:Montanabw/al-Zayyat sandbox. Montanabw(talk) 19:32, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Name[edit]

Hi all, I am taking this issue to talk at the invitation of Montanabw. I'd like to start by apologising if I have come off as crusty or blunt at any point so far.

A brief summary of the issue: at the start of the "Early career and personal life" section we introduce the subject as "Zayat (/zə'jɑːt/; Arabic: أحمد الزيات‎; Hebrew: אפרים זיאת‎ (Ephraim Zayat))". The Arabic here says Ahmed Zayat, the Hebrew says Ephraim Zayat. I thought this was a mistake by somebody who could not read Hebrew—the Latin-script transliteration "(Ephraim Zayat)" was not there at this point—and so changed the first name to say Ahmed (in Hebrew אחמד). This was reverted by Montanabw on the grounds that the man's "Hebrew name" is Ephraim. I then changed the name again so that the name Ahmed Zayat was given in Hebrew script, with "Hebrew name Ephraim (אפרים)" afterwards. Montanabw reverted again, saying this was unsourced and that "All RS indicate that he only uses Hebrew language and name within Jewish community and is "Ahmed" elsewhere." I had a look in the sources further down (this and this). The first link does not mention the name Ephraim at all. The second does, but does not clarify to what degree the name is actually used if at all. I concluded that the statement that the name Ephraim "is often used by family and community" was unsourced and removed it. I have left the main issue, that of the name at the start, untouched pending further discussion.

Regardless of to what degree the name Ephraim is used, and it is probably only during religious ceremonies, the fact remains that the name by which he is primarily known is Ahmed. If we are going to give his name in Hebrew script I see no reason not to give both names. —  Cliftonian (talk)  03:52, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • @Wehwalt: helped with the Hebrew. I'm pinging him to see if he can offer an insight. I think he is the one who added the "used by family and community" bit as a way to clarify what a Hebrew name is used for. Zayat himself is kind of cagey about his own ethnic and religious identity at times, to be frank. You will notice that we are careful to say that his family is Orthodox - he keeps kosher and such, but he made his fortune selling non-alcoholic beer to muslims. I don't really see the need for the Arabic or the Hebrew beyond the passing reference to his ceremonial "Hebrew name" (which does need a mention because it occasionally pops up in news stories-some of his gambling mishaps occurred with people who are, apparently, ethnically Jewish...) I'm not going to edit-war to keep the Arabic translations out, but I do think that the Hebrew should just be "Ephraim Zayat" - as I highly doubt that he has ever used "Ahmed" in Hebrew. (Actually, given who his grandfather was, it's not even impossible that he was not originally Jewish— he has sometimes let people assume he's Muslim and won't say what his own beliefs are) Montanabw(talk) 04:46, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • If he has a Jewish marriage certificate (Ketubah כתובה) or anything like that it would, if they do these things anything like the Orthodox Rabbinate of Israel does, give both names—"Ahmed" and "Ephraim"—in Hebrew script, along with any other names he has. Even in the Synagogue, people would likely call him "Ahmed" except for when he's mentioned in religious liturgy in the Hebrew language; and even then they might give both names. I'm afraid I still don't see any reason not to transliterate the primary name, Ahmed Zayat, into both Arabic and Hebrew. We can give the name Ephraim immediately afterwards. —  Cliftonian (talk)  06:08, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Skim this NYT article: [14] it sort of gives you the gist; he apparently has used both Ahmed Zayat and Ephraim David Zayat at times. I can't use this source in the article per WP:RS, but here's the “When I deal with Jewish customers, I’m Ephraim from Englewood; when I deal with Arab customers, I’m Ahmed from Egypt” thing I was looking for: [15]. Montanabw(talk) 16:42, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm. Perhaps a good compromise might be to start with "Ahmed Zayat (/zə'jɑːt/; Arabic: أحمد الزيات‎), also known as Ephraim David Zayat (Hebrew: אפרים דוד זיאת‎), was born in Egypt in 1962 ..."? Presuming that can be backed up by reliable sources, of course. I'd rather avoid this ambiguity about a "Hebrew name" or whatever—just give both names, perhaps with the quote you mention above. —  Cliftonian (talk)  16:51, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm OK with that, but keeping the sentence in the background section about how his "Hebrew name" is Ephraim, as that is verified in multiple sources (I only picked one for the article). The Drape article, already cited, notes "Ephraim David Zayat" :[16] will that work? If not, is the lawsuit decision from a third-party site an RS? ([17])
That's fine with me. I'm glad we've managed to find a solution here. I'll leave it to you to implement this as you see fit; if there's anything else I'll post here again (or, in the case of something very minor, tweak it myself). I hope you're well and thanks for all your work on this fine article. Cheers, —  Cliftonian (talk)  03:19, 3 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This was a very good example of how WP:BRD is supposed to work, we discussed, we outlined the situation we mutually respected and educated one another and arrived at a solution both sides could support. You raised legitimate points and made solid comments, the article is better now than it was before. Thank you! Montanabw(talk) 04:43, 3 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you too. Thank you also for the very nice pony who has appeared on my talk page—most welcome. —  Cliftonian (talk)  16:24, 3 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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