Talk:Aiki (martial arts principle)

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Untitled[edit]

I have started this article, and look forward to contributions from other wikipedians to help improve it. Womble bee 10:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You might want to rewrite the "Dominating the assailant" section (I'm leaving in a moment or I'd do it myself). Nage is not the receiver of the technique that is uke (not capitilized, but italisized). The section also reads like a bit of clumsy legal brief. Not sure how to make it better but for starters uke is used too many times (party of the first part, etc.). Not a great help I know but ....Peter Rehse 10:48, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have tried revising the paragraph but I'm still not 100% happy with it... Womble bee 12:13, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Kanji for "ki"[edit]

I'm not trying to start an old fight in a new place, but even if the older kanji for ki (氣) was appropriate on the aikido page (supposedly due to common usage solely in the aikido community and in spite of Japanese gov't reforms regarding official kanji use in Japanese schools and publications), I really don't think it belongs here. How do you feel about changing to the "new" kanji: 気? Bradford44 15:59, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. The original discusion may be found here - Talk:Aikido#Pre-war kanji 氣. Bradford44 16:05, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the concept of aiki is not limited to Japanese culture alone, and thus the 'old' hanja (^wink^) 氣 is more appropriate. Kbarends 21:04, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm in agreement with Klaas, here. Although the correct Japanese character to use is the post 1945 one, to do so limits the concept to Japan alone as only they simplified this character in this way. I also think that the use of the older character allows a more easily understood graphical understanding of the original meaning of the components of this character, as is discussed in the article.--Mateo2006 06:48, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Which brings me to the following "Aiki is a Japanese martial arts principle or tactic." Did the concept of aiki really originate in Japan? Or did it already exist in let say Chinese martial arts philosophy and was it adapted by the Japanese? Who was the first person to come up with the concept of aiki? Who wrote about it first? Kbarends (talk) 07:31, 15 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

ai/hap translated as 'harmony'[edit]

I like the explanation if 'aiki/hapki' much better here than on the kiai page where ai is extended to mean 'harmony'. Ueshiba sometimes referred to it is as 'love' which was definitively not the original martial arts concept but suited his purposes and philosophy. I made some changes over there on the kiai page. See if you concur.

In aikijujutsu and sword work it seems that aiki is used to decribe the coordination or relationship of energies or forces in their many manifestations rather than their 'harmony', which I think is more specific and narrow in meaning than 'coordination'. In sword work I've heard 'aiki' translated as 'matched ki'. 'Harmonizing' or 'blending' is just one manifestation of aiki in Daito-ryu and not the sole one. I think there is a sense of this in the aiki article's treatment of the subject which was lacking over there on the kiai page.

On the Daito-ryu page I give Sokaku Takeda's definition of aiki which was 'to win at a single glance' or something of that nature.

Karl Friday translates aiki as 'reciprocal spirit' --Mateo2006 07:06, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I think its important to keep in mind the difference between meaning and translation. The dictionaries I use consistently translate ai as meeting and joining, and wa as harmony. So an argument could be made that if it was supposed to mean harmony, it would be waki, instead. This is an oversimplification, though. Obviously, Japanese words don't have an exact English analog, so really, we just use whatever term best approximates their meanings. If harmony is in fact the best conceptualization of the practice, then that's what it means, regardless of any dictionary. My argument, though, is that "harmony" may be the way some people think of aiki, but not all. Therefore, it is better to be more dictionary-like (albeit perhaps less meaningful), and translate the term as "joining spirit". This way, it can be explained that Ueshiba and subsequent followers used aiki in a harmonious way to defuse a conflict, while historical use of aiki was for destructive purposes, etc... Bradford44 13:53, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

questionable etymology[edit]

The kanji for "ai" is made of three radicals, "join", "one" and "mouth". Hence, "ai" symbolizes things coming together, merging. Aiki should not be confused with "wa" which refers to harmony. The kanji for "ki" represents a pot filled with steaming rice and a lid on it.

I think some of this story is wrong, or at least too incomplete.

For 合 there seems to be a disconnect between an artificial system for categorising the modern Japanese kanji strokes, versus the true historic etymological evolution of the character. Isn't it more valid to explain that 合 depicts two mouths facing each other (in conversation), or else a vessel with its lid on (stuff all fitting together)? Compare [1] vs [2], or to further emphasise the point, compare how 気 (the modern Japanese simplification that replaces 氣) is also categorised into 3 parts not all connected to its meaning [3].

Now for 氣, the above story about the lid (containing the steamy rice vapours) seems to be just wrong. Instead 氣 depicts a man blowing over rice (which of course still conveys that the concept of nourishing rice vapours). See [4]. But if we go to the main qi page the story gets murkier still, because it is argued that the entire rice element was merely an old artistic flourish and that the original word was simply 气 depicting breath. (Comparing with [5] this does seem plausible, both in terms of the graphic development of both characters through history and of the meaning still retained even in Japanese by the original. Funnily enough, the modern Chinese simplification returns it to this form.)

I guess detail on 氣 probably belongs mostly in the qi article instead of this one? I don't know where the 氣 lid business came from but it seems to be widespread in aikido, possibly so much so as to still be worth mentioning somewhere as a noteworthy mistake. I'm not sure where would be the best places, guess it depends on whether the tale is specific to aikido or aiki martial arts or turns up in more general references to ki. Anybody know?

Also, there is a great deal of detail on the ai and ki characters at the aikido page. That should probably be merged here and the aikido page changed to simply refer to this one for that kind of detail. Cesiumfrog (talk) 00:35, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The three lines above the mouth are also representing a contract with heaven The mouth then means to speak your truth of purpose from Heaven Shenqijing (talk) 09:03, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think a section on the etymology of 合気 needs to describe when the word 合気 was first recorded, and that this article is not the appropriate place for hypotheses about how each component character (気 or 合 in isolation) developed. Cesiumfrog (talk) 06:24, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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