Talk:Al-Sarafand

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Incitement[edit]

I found that the part of the Or Commission Report that mentions Sarafand is section 99, where the section describes the events as mentioned in this article (the bulldozer, tent, vigil, etc) and concludes with a statement that attempts by Muslim organizations to renovate abandoned mosques, as well as attempts by Jews to block such actions, may cause tension ('shift the dynamics of the scale') in the future. I am wondering where in the report does it say that rebuilding the Sarafand Mosque is a method of incitement by Muslims. Can anybody point me to the correct section? Thanks Ramallite ^(talk) 06:01, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Also, this 'Aqsa Foundation' does not appear at all in the Or report. What is this foundation, and is there any evidence that such an organization is responsible for rebuilding the mosque? Thanks. Ramallite ^(talk) 14:46, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The al-Aksa foundation is an off shot of the Islamic Movment, it is headed by the former mayor of Kafar bara who is one of the top guys in IM. They focus on searching and restoring what they call "holy sites" - I recently read about them in haartz I'll try to find a citation (unless you trust me on this) Zeq 16:49, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually the Al-Aksa foundation is mentioned in the report itself in section 97-99. To answer your previous question, I tried to summerized into few words what the report describe in section 73, 74, the last part of section 76 , sections 97, 98, 99 section 101 (especially toward the end of it) as well as section 127 and of course th whole conclusion of the report on the Islamic Movment in sections 135 and 140. Of course this compression into ferw words can be done better. Zeq 16:59, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the problem is that they don't appear anywhere in the Or report, yet you are citing the Or report in claiming that the Aksa foundation tried to rebuild the Sarafand mosque as a method of incitement. I don't doubt that this foundation exists, but the Or commission does not mention them, and does not mention anything about Sarafand and incitement. It says that Muslims tried to get a license to rebuild, it was refused, and this will help create animosity (which is what I assume 'shifting the dynamics of the scale' means). Can you clarify or tell me which section of the Or commission report you are referring to? There are over 100 sections in there. Ramallite ^(talk) 17:02, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The repoprt describe a whole set of actions that were taken in order to "radicalize" the Muslim public, recliaming "holy sites" is just one of them. It is there in the sections I listed above. Like any "inquary commision" they describe the whole process in length but they do clearly list that event as one of the events used by the Islamc movment to radicalize the muslim comunity. Zeq 16:59, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oh I see it now - I didn't read the whole thing, I was looking for אקצה or אקצא with the "find" button but they spell it אקסא. Ok I'll actually read these sections now, sorry and thanks. Ramallite ^(talk) 17:08, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You are welcome. And I can alreadty tell you that my choise to use the word "incitment" may not have been correct, maybe need to be replced with"causing radicalization" . Although these words in section 100:

לשרשרת זו של מחלוקות בין מוסלמים לרשויות, אשר לובו על ידי אנשי התנועה האסלאמית

Can be translated as 'incitment' (the verb לובו - which is literly is "to make the fire stronger until metal put in it turns white)

Zeq 17:20, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Found the Ha=aretz ref: http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/pages/ShArtSR.jhtml?itemNo=430673

Zeq 17:21, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

POV[edit]

This edit [1] is unjuestified unless the sources and NPOV policies were changed since last time I edited this article. This is another POV push by Zero that is not discussed in talk. The edit that Zero reverted is discussed above in great detail. The source Zero used is clearly POV and propoganistic. Zeq 10:09, 8 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody has verified that Zeq's claims about the Or report (which is in Hebrew) are accurate. Since the official English summary does not contain similar statements, and Zeq is a notorious POV-pusher who is on warning from the Arbitration Committee over his use of sources, I am entitled to ask for a second opinion. Ramallite's statements above do not contain confirmation of Zeq's claims. As for the "propogandistic" [sic] source I used, it is a peer-reviewed paper in one of the leading international journals on Middle East studies. The authors are at the Ruppin Academic Centre, Emeq Hefer, Israel, and the Middle East Institute, Columbia University, New York. --Zero 12:23, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

They are accurate and the Personal attack on my integrety would not changed that.

Also accsuing those who can not defend themself here with a speculation about their alleged criminal activity is something that should be left for the police. Allegations will be removed. Zeq 16:24, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Would this version work?

In 1999, the 'Aqsa Society for the Preservation of Islamic Holy Sites' decided to restore al-Sarafand’s mosque. In May 2000, while restoration was on the verge of completion, the mosque was destroyed overnight by a bulldozer. The perpetrator was never identified. The activists covered the ruins by a large tent and maintained a vigil at the site. Removal of the tent was negotiated with the Israeli authorities. It was agreed that the site would be fenced to protect it, but that did not happen and the activists built a more permanent structure. The latter was demolished by the police in March 2002, but the ruined mosque continues to be used for Friday prayers.[1] According to the Or Commission report, Israeli authorities did not grant a license for rebuilding the mosque after the demolition; a decision that contributed to the souring of relations between Muslims and the authorities. The Or Commission report also claims that activities by Islamic organizations such as the aforementioned society may be using religious pretenses to further political aims. The commission describes such actions as a factor in 'inflaming' the Muslim population in Israel against the authorities, and cites the Sarafand mosque episode, with Muslims' attempts to restore the mosque and Jewish attempts to stop them, as an example of the 'shifting of dynamics' of the relationship between Muslims and the Israeli authorities. Ramallite ^(talk) 17:25, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, thank you. --Zero 00:19, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree as well. Zeq 05:03, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Petersen-ref[edit]

Some of the refs given in Petersen, 2001, are wrong:

Strange, 1890, p. 531...is hardly here
Clermont-Ganneau: several of there pages mentioned (all??) are the Ramla- Sarafands, Huldra (talk) 23:13, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Also:

Guerin, Gallilee II, pp 478-482: that is in Lebanon. Correct is Guerin, Samarie 2, p. 301, Huldra (talk) 21:09, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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