Talk:Albanian dialects

Untitled

Created this page as the Albanian language page was getting too long. As well, this page will include more details on the various subdialects of Albanian ( treatment vowels, consonant, consonant cluster, etc.) Azalea pomp (talk) 19:08, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Image needs to be fixed

Dialectological chart of Albanian dialects and sub-dialects.

This image needs to include the Transitional dialects. Azalea pomp (talk) 19:19, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

These here for reference

Differences

Gheg and Tosk differ mainly by:

1. rhotacism - Gheg has n where Tosk has r
2. late Proto-Albanian ā + tautosyllabic nasal > Gheg low-central or low-back vowel; > Tosk mid-central, or low-front-to-central vowel
3. Proto-Albanian ō > uo > Gheg vo, Tosk va
4. infinitival use of verbal adjective preceded in Gheg by me and in Tosk by për të
5. difference in lexemes, noun plurals, suppletion of the aorist system of the verb

Dialects may vary on:

1. retention or loss of final schwa (-ë)
2. devoicing of final voiced segments
3. treatment of intervocalic and final nj
4. treatment of clusters of nasal + voiced stop
5. development of anaptyctic homorganic stops after nasals that follow a stressed vowel and precede unstressed -ël or -ër
6. treatment of vowel clusters ie, ye, and ua
7. treatment of stressed /e/ before a nasal

Notable phonological and lexicological differences

Standard form	Tosk form	Gheg form	Translation
Shqipëri	Shqipëri	Shqypni/Shipni/Shqipni	Albania
një	një	nji/njâ/njo	a/one
nëntë	nëntë/nëndë	nândë/nant/non	nine
është	është	âsht/osht/â	is
bëj	bëj	bâj/boj	do
emër	emër	êmën	name
pjekuri	pjekuri	pjekuni	maturity
gjendje	gjëndje	gjêndje	situation
mbret	mbret	mret	king
për të punuar	për të punuar	me punu(e/a)	to work
rërë	rërë	rânë/zall	sand
qenë	qënë	kênë/kânë	been (part.)
dëllinjë	enjë	bërshê	juniper
baltë	baltë	bâltë/lloç	mud
cimbidh	mashë	danë	tongs
sy	sy/si	sy/sö	eye
gërshërë	gërshërë	gershânë	scissors
femër	femër	femën	woman, female

The caron ( ˆ ) denotes nasal vowels, which are a common feature of Gheg.

More info coming soon in table form

I will be making a table of dialect forms which will be better than having everything in text. Azalea pomp (talk) 20:46, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Dialectal split

Happened in 5-6 century AD with Shkumbin river as boundary. Those in North created other dialect, those in south another. That is what authors maintain. Aigest (talk) 09:17, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

and where does it say that Albanians inhabited Shkumbin area in 5th-6th cent. B.C.? It's the weirdest wp:synth and wp:or I've ever seen, based on this:

The river Shkumbin in central Albania historically forms the boundary between those two dialects, with the population on the north speaking varieties of Geg and the population on the south varieties of Tosk.

No wonder, nowhere. That's also an ultranationalistic approach which is unacceptable by the modern scientific society, so please avoid this extremist or deductions. Alexikoua (talk) 09:26, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

What's more than obvious is if an author says that the dialect split happened before Slavic migrations it doesn't mean that Albanians inhabited the same area that time. It could happened everywhere in the Balkans (see Origin of the Albanians, or the Dacian theory for example). The author does not say that Albanians lived in this same region prior to the Slavic migrations.Alexikoua (talk) 09:40, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Read Hamp online

The isogloss is clear in all dialects I have studied, which embrace nearly all types possible. It must be relatively old, that is, dating back into the post-Roman first millennium. As a guess, it seems possible that this isogloss reflects a spread of the speech area, after the settlement of the Albanians in roughly their present location, so that the speech area straddled the Jireček Line.

When the dialect split happened Albanians were in that area. See also Mallory, Cabej and Demiraj on that dialect issue. Aigest (talk) 10:13, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

The authors above maintain that the dialect split happened while Albanian were in that area. If you have other authors that maintain that the dialect split happened in another area, bring them here and we'll continue the discussion. Aigest (talk) 10:38, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Aegist: this is quite childish. We are not sure if Albanians were autocthonous from 5th AD. Also running in a variety of articles and claiming this is the definition of wp:disruption.Alexikoua (talk) 14:01, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Also let me inform you about the Jizerec line [File:Bgiusca_Jirecek_Line.jpg], lies some houndreds of kms north of Shkumbin (stretching from northern Albanian to Bulgaria). Also there is a mountain of historical evidence that the first reference to Albanian happened at 11th century, which makes all these extreme obsession about autochthony unhistoric.Alexikoua (talk) 14:11, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

The autochthony of Albanians in modern Albania is undisputed Alexikoua. The debatable part is the exact location.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 15:41, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Because Albanians were not mentioned does not mean they were not there. Albanians weren't mentioned at all before that (anywhere in the world) does this mean that they just popped up sometimes in the 10th century? NO. Albanian language is unique and old. No one denies that! What is disputable is who are the descendants of Albanians and what was their original territory. Two are main theories. One: They are from the current territory. Two: They came from territory of Dardania and Moesia. There is a third explanation, that Albanians originated in Dardania-Moesia (around Noissus) and moved in late Roman period (300 AD) in todays territory. —Anna Comnena (talk) 18:09, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

The dialectal split happened (4-6 century AD) before Albanians were in contact with Slavs entering the Balkans. Also the dialectal boundary of Albanians is clear: Shkumbin river. Those are two sure things that all linguists agree. That means that when the dialectal split happened Albanians should have been in that area, otherwise it does not make much sense to suppose that dialect were formed somewhere else(where?) but after long migration they magically were placed like this: those of dialect A above Shkumbin river and those of dialect B below Shkumbin river. AFAIK that is smth that no scholar has maintained regarding Albanian dialects. You should also keep in mind that even the majority of those linguists who are against Illyrian origin (eg Baric, Georgiev, etc) maintain that Albanian preceded Slavs in Albania. This is also stated by Hamp "Of course, in any event we could only prove the Albanians did, and never that they did not, precede the Slavs" Ancient Indo-European Dialects Publisher University of California Press p.106 If they were tribes of Illyrians, Thracians or Dacians, it doesn't matter, according to linguists mentioned above they were there in that period. Aigest (talk) 21:05, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Aegist you say That means that when the dialectal split happened Albanians should have been in that area,. I'm sorry but that means nothing, the dialect split could have happen everywhere in the Balkan neighborhood. I would appreciate if you avoid misinterpreting the specific sources. Also, the scientific community isn't certain that Albanians in any form that time inhabited the Shkumbin area. For additional information see: Origin of the Albanians, an article you know very well.Alexikoua (talk) 21:33, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

What does Hamp says according to you when he states "this isogloss reflects a spread of the speech area, after the settlement of the Albanians in roughly their present location, so that the speech area straddled the Jireček Line."? Also you should read Demiraj on that when he states exactly what I said above, with the same argument. Albanian speaking populations were there during dialect split. If you have other scholar sources mentioning any place in the Balkans where dialectal split (Tosk-Geg) happened, bring it here. Since there are several times I ask this from you, but you don't do it, I suppose you don't have one, so what you say is just plain OR-ing. Aigest (talk) 22:45, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Svg map

I changed the map to an updated SVG version. Another user changed it back to the raster version without other explation besides „It's not good, sorry”. I'd like to hear a more detailed explanation to why the map is not good. It's referenced and partly based on the previous map. - ArnoldPlaton (talk) 16:41, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Which are your sources? You've basically reduced all areas (except for Arvanitika) without any source. Please don't revert you map back per BRD. The previous diactological map was much better.

• In the region of Macedonia you've removed almost half of the area and reduced the intermediate dialects. Struga and other regions are nowhere to be found among others.
• In Italy, you've reduced the area and replaced it with regions, in which Albanian isn't spoken. You've even misplaced Piana degli Albanesi. In retrospect, that isn't your fault (your source made the mistake[1]), but in the future please try to verify any content from multiple sources. For example, Ethnologue offers a rudimentary understanding on the Albanian dialects of Italy[2]. If I'm not mistaken, the source you used labeled the area between Bagheria and Termini Imerese as Albanian-speaking. In fact, there's not one Albanian-speaking village in those parts of Sicily.

--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 16:44, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Corrected the mistakes. How is it now? -ArnoldPlaton (talk) 17:41, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

I would rename the Myzeqe label to Tosk as Myzeqe refers to a specific subdialect in the regions of Berat and Fier and add a "dot" on the location of Mandritsa. There are probably very few people that speak it, but since it's a dialectological map it should be mentioned. The dialects in Macedonia might have been expanded a bit too much eastwards. Generally, Veles and sometimes Gradsko are considered the easternmost area of the dialect continuum. Personally, I consider the border between these two areas as the frontier.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 18:29, 9 October 2012 (UTC)