Talk:Alice in Chains (album)/Archive 1

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Archive 1

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Dubious claim

From the article:

cover art featuring a three-legged dog (Jerry Cantrell's dog Sunshine)1
1. FYI: Alice in Chains Evolvor.com (August 10, 2007). Retrieved on 10-05-08.

The cited website is user-generated content and is no more reliable than Wikipedia. If it's true, we need a better source for it, but sounds like tape-traders' band folklore to me. -- C. A. Russell (talk) 18:27, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't think this is in any way true, except for possibly the name of the dog. From what I have read over the years, the dog was one that terrorized Sean Kinney on his childhood paper route. However, I cannot find anyway to verify this claim either. But for what its worth, and being a huge Alice in Chains fan, I have never heard that the dog was Jerry Cantrell's. -- Lifeinchains (talk) 16:16, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

over now

someone please fix the chart, because "over now" did chart —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.17.152.183 (talk) 00:01, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Dead external links to Allmusic website – January 2011

Since Allmusic have changed the syntax of their URLs, 1 link(s) used in the article do not work anymore and can't be migrated automatically. Please use the search option on http://www.allmusic.com to find the new location of the linked Allmusic article(s) and fix the link(s) accordingly, prefereably by using the {{Allmusic}} template. If a new location cannot be found, the link(s) should be removed. This applies to the following external links:

--CactusBot (talk) 10:03, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

"Sludge metal"

Can any provide a reliable source connecting this album with the genre of sludge metal? If there isn't, it probably shouldn't be in the article. Sergecross73 msg me 13:12, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

I hope you can read,so just go through the ninth para of the interview.http://guitarinternational.com/2010/08/20/jerry-cantrell-why-is-this-man-smiling/ Metalvayne (talk) 17:16, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Can you read? Searched for "sludge" in that article, only thing that came up was “I used a Peavey 5150 head on “Sludge Factory”. "Sludge Factory" is the name of the song on this album, no mention of the genre. HrZ (talk) 12:22, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm now sure of the fact that,you can't read & probably weak in math too,I said ninth para,"Cantrell had no difficulties in making a suitably snakelike sludgy Alice in Chains album." How did you miss that man?I'd advice you to contact an eye specialist immediately & thank you for enlightening me with the fact that "Sludge Factory" is a song off the album. Metalvayne (talk) 18:14, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

At no point does he call the album "sludge metal". He calls it "sludgy". That's not a genre. Also, it's usually best to get a third party account of the genre. Do you know how many emo bands claim theyre not emo? Or the same with nu-metal bands, because the label got unpopular. If we went by first party accounts, some genres would pretty much cease to exist.
Anyways, keep looking for sources, this one will not do. Sergecross73 msg me 16:46, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Sorry for being a bit rude,I was kind of high at that moment.I don't know about emo bands,as I don't listen to them & I don't consider it to be a genre at all,more like a 'term' or 'trend'.Anyway,chuck the emo thing,it's totally out of the subject.Any AIC fan would notice the strong sludge/stoner/doom influence on their music & yes,I'll keep looking for sources. Metalvayne (talk) 13:10, 8 April, 2012 (UTC)

Go ahead and keep looking for sources, as long as Wikipedia isn't disrupted and Wikipedians aren't insulted during the process. Backtable Speak to meconcerning my deeds. 01:29, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
I find it hard to believe these influences are that "strong", if it's taking you so much effort to find just one reliable source that supports it, but if you can find one, then I suppose it could be included... Sergecross73 msg me 14:10, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
I second this statement. Backtable Speak to meconcerning my deeds. 21:50, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

sorry this is a heavy metal album okay

just because it was recorded in seattle in the 90s doesn't make it grunge, it's a heavy metal/alt metal album, and it's not like aic were part of the grunge scene or anything.

how many times do i have to repeat this? morons. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.32.220.148 (talk) 15:49, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Please maintain civility and yes,I second that,it's a heavy metal album with strong sludge/doom influence,I'v tried to add it too but a couple of users are very much stubborn & insisting on to find a strong source. Metalvayne (talk) 22:38, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

There's a very big difference between using the terms "grunge" and "sludge".
    • It's been weeks and Metalvayne has failed to provide a single reliable source calling them "sludge".
    • It takes mere seconds to find sources making reference as grunge as a genre. For instance, all three reviews in the review box in the article at least reference the band being part of grunge, if not the album itself. Sergecross73 msg me 03:05, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Sean Kinney & Cantrell both have stated in several interviews that,they are not comfortable with the grunge label & what the eff is grunge? things like that,even if you read this interview,Jerry has never uttered the 'grunge' word to describe their music,he said AIC is a blend of metal,blues & good old classic rock,with a touch of punk rock. http://www.guitarworld.com/1996-guitar-world-interview-jerry-cantrell-alice-chains-discusses-songwriting-and-bands-new-self-titled-album?page=0,2 Metalvayne (talk) 11:42, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, that's what happens when bands of a similar sound get popular during a big musical movement like grunge. They get lumped in. The Smashing Pumpkins's Billy Corgan argues they're not part of the grunge movement either, even though they're widely recognized as one of the biggest bands of the genre. If we went by what he said, we'd call's their music "American Gothic", and that's not even a recognized genre.
Bands commonly say they're not part of a movement for various reasons, whether to make themselves seem more original, or because they don't want to be associated with the genre when there's a backlash and the label is no longer popular. We don't want to go strictly by what band members say, because in short, they're biased. It's their legacy we're talking about. Sure, we can make note of the fact that they resented the label or what not, that is important, but what we ultimately want to go by is what impartial, reliable, third party sources say on the matter. Sergecross73 msg me 13:33, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Layne Staley's guitar contributions

I noticed here in the credits that Layne was only listed as having played rhythm guitar on "Head Creeps." In the liner notes to the album, he is credited as having supplied "vocals, guitar," and in most cases, if a band member only plays an instrument outside their usual duty on only one or two tracks, it will make note of that, which it does not on this album. There is an interview with Jerry Cantrell from around the time of this record where he breaks it down track-by-track and refers to Layne's guitar contributions on several songs, notably "Brush Away" and "Again," a tune which he re-wrote Cantrell's own riff. I can't find the article right away, but it is out there, I've seen it fairly recently. Besides, if you listen closely to a lot of the songs on here, you can definitely tell there are two different guitar players on a lot of the songs. Jerry does the majority of the guitar parts, but there are a lot of noisy, metallic riffs that aren't his and some noodly stuff in the jams that has to be Layne. I've only gotten really into this album (after owning it since '98) in the past year or so, but from a close listen, I can tell you that Layne plays guitar on at least half of the album. It's harder to tell on "Dirt" because the stuff he plays on the few tracks he does play on are closer to Jerry's sound, as one can assume that he probably picked up a lot of his guitar skills from Jerry, but by this point, the loud, clangorous sound was probably Layne's definite sound on guitar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.90.57.37 (talk) 01:47, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Jar of Flies

Shouldn't Jar of Flies be listed as the last album since it came out in between Dirt and Alice in Chains? Shaneymike (talk) 19:36, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

No. Read WP:ALBUM formatting rules. The Real Libs-speak politely 19:48, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
Relevant section is Wikipedia:WikiProject Albums#Chronology, which says nothing about precluding Jar of Flies. The intent of the section is to keep live releases, compilations, and singles from junking up the chronology; EPs are fair game, and I'd say especially so in this case since the EP isn't just a rough approximation of a forthcoming album (e.g., Loudest Love), that is, assuming that's your reasoning.
Also note that EP is an antiquated term that arose from the physical limitations of the vinyl medium. Trying to assert that a record is in an entirely separate subclass based on that limitation alone is flawed. (For that matter, Jar of Flies doesn't even qualify for the EP designation by UK music charting, because it's both over 25 minutes in length and has more than 4 tracks. Apparently the RIAA doesn't care to make these distinctions, so that's the only metric I can apply.) I'll likely be re-adding these soon. -- C. A. Russell (talk) 18:40, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
Done. -- C. A. Russell (talk) 20:24, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
The article must be global. If it isn't an EP everywhere then your proposal holds water. My only suggestion would have been courtesy to wait for at least 3 people to agree with you before implementing. Its done now so democracy be dashed. The Real Libs-speak politely 11:57, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
It's an EP in neither the UK nor the US. It's not an EP in the UK because the charting qualifications explicitly rule it out. It's not in the "EP subclass" in the US because nothing that I can gather, e.g., from the RIAA, supports the notion that there even is such a thing.
The comment was here for a full six months with nary a reply. Additionally, the state the infoboxes were in meant that if you clicked the next in the series of albums link from, e.g., the Jar of Flies article, and clicked the previous in the series link from the Alice in Chains album article, then you would be at the Dirt article, not back here. That's broken. -- C. A. Russell (talk) 19:44, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
But what about this? "For some artists it may be more appropriate to include all album types in one chain" Shaneymike (talk) 13:50, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Hmm interesting arguments. Personally I think that SAP and Jar of Flies are both studio EP's that should be listed with their main albums. When talking about their main work these two are always included with few exceptions. They're not bonus material like song EP's, but actual studio material. --Mrmoustache14 (talk) 01:29, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Doom metal

Closing discussion initiated by blocked user. Tarc (talk) 02:53, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Excerpts from allmusic which is considered a reliable source according to the wikipedia,

Inspired largely by the lumbering dirges and stoned, paranoid darkness of Black Sabbath, doom metal is one of the very few heavy metal subgenres to prize feel and mood more than flashy technique (though the latter can certainly be present). Even more indebted to Sabbath than most metal, doom metal is extremely slow, sludgy, and creepy, feeling so heavy it can barely move; its deliberate pace and murky guitars are meant to evoke (what else?) a sense of impending doom. The movement began to take shape in the mid-'80s, as underground bands like the SST label's Saint Vitus, the critically acclaimed Trouble, and Sweden's Candlemass attracted cult audiences for their out-of-fashion, Sabbath-dominated sounds. Trouble and Cathedral helped bring doom metal to a wider (though not mainstream) metal audience during the early '90s, and doom's monolithic darkness quickly made it appealing to a variety of tastes. Doom metal was one of the formative influences on the retro-obsessed stoner metal movement of the '90s, and it was not uncommon for bands to find favor in both camps. Another dominant strain of '90s doom metal -- pioneered by British bands like Paradise Lost, My Dying Bride, and Anathema -- fused Sabbath heaviness with the sounds and sensibilities of goth-metal, plus occasional touches of death metal; the results were sorrowful, gloomy epics. The '90s also birthed a unique doom metal scene centered in New Orleans; the sound of bands like Crowbar and Eyehategod was often described as "sludge metal" because of their heavy debt to early Seattle grunge bands like the Melvins and Soundgarden. Several doom metal bands incorporated progressive tendencies, though this approach was much less widespread.


  • Decibel magazine's one of the recent issues which covers a detailed overview of doom metal and 100 best doom metal albums of all time
  • One of the recent phenomenons in doom metal Pallbearer. Both of their albums have been frequently featured on popular zines like Pitchfork and Spin and have been included in AOTY list as well. [1] [2]
  • Alice in Chains have been cited as doom metal from time to time by various music journalists and for this album by Canadian connoiseur Martin Popoff.

Considering his past edits it's quite a habit of the user to deny relatively semi-obscure genres but this time it's a sourced addition and now with reasonings. I urge to come up with his own. Thanks. --Whiskydemon (talk) 08:28, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

It's not a genre, like sludge metal and all those other retarded buzzwords. Has been discussed time and time again. Tarc (talk) 13:20, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
So that's your reasoning contrasting to my six valid points? "It's not a genre...It's not a genre...Not..not..not...bleh blah bla...". Come up with something more sensible and less juvenile. Thanks. --Whiskydemon (talk) 15:06, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
It has been discussed ad nauseam, such as this discussion over at the main AiC page, which discussed doom/sludge along with metal. In fact, re-reading that discussion jogs the memory a bit; long time no see, my dear Metalvaye. A "new" account, registered on March 23rd, right to edit-warring about genres in alt/metal articles? The IP "173.61.226.153" is most certainly you as well. So, I think we're done here, as your block is imminent. Tarc (talk) 15:29, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

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Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Alice in Chains (album)/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

erm what is the point in listing what tracks have been performed live after staley's death? that should be in the trivia section if at all.

it's not even accurate, it says they havent performed "again" without him, yet i saw them perform it last year at the download festival

HoS

Last edited at 01:19, 11 April 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 07:18, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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