Talk:Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza/Archive 1

Archive 1

List of Supporting Countries

Please add a list of countries and organisations supporting South Africa's case at ICJ. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.70.80.51 (talk) 23:46, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Request to add Masha Gessen's comments

Masha Gessen, when asked if what is happening in Gaza is a genocide stated, "I think there are some fine distinctions between genocide and ethnic cleansing and I think that there are valid arguments for using both terms". When pressed further they stated, "it is at the very least ethnic cleansing". This was followed soon after controversy surrounding Gessen's receival of the Hannah Arendt Prize over remarks in a New Yorker Article critical of Israeli actions in the strip wherein Gessen compared them to an Eastern European Ghetto "being liquidated" by the Nazis. Nandofan (talk) 03:02, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Nandofan, added, though in the 'cultural discourse' section since she has no claim to being a legal or similar scholar. Pincrete (talk) 11:24, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

That makes sense. Thank you Nandofan (talk) 19:42, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

@Pincrete thanks, @Nandofan sorry, I should have checked other replies first. Irtapil (talk) 06:12, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

@Pincrete *they

Irtapil (talk) 06:13, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

@Nandofan If you're able to edit the article then I agree that's relevant and endorse you adding it, but it needs a reference.

If you're not able to edit the article, can you suggest where that fits and give a link to a citation we can use please?

Irtapil (talk) 06:10, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Just saw someone already done. Irtapil (talk) 06:13, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

First sentence of background is awkward

First sentence of background reads very strangely, "Background - After Israel began the bombing of Gaza following the 7 October attacks, some Palestinians immediately expressed concern that this violence would be used to justify genocide against Palestinians by Israel."

But I'm stumped on how to fix it. Can a better writer than I am please have a go at turning it into something cohesive?

It looks like multiple people have added three opinionated words each? All of the points there probably should be included, but connected better and with a more even tone.

Irtapil (talk) 06:07, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Flaws seem to be that it isn't only Palestinians, it isn't now only concerns about what would happen, it's about deeds rather than only about justification. Pincrete (talk) 07:20, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

I've tried to fix, I don't know whether this works for others. Pincrete (talk) 07:40, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

"Gaza genocide" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Gaza genocide has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 January 17 § Gaza genocide until a consensus is reached. The sum of all human knowledge (talk) 13:33, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

January 2024

I propose that we split this article into like 10 articles more. Clearly we haven't created enough content forks out of this war, how about we divide it by months or cities or something? I'm sure it will serve for, well, something probably.

This article is at least much, much more serious and realistic than Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Hamas attack on Israel. But we have Palestinian genocide accusation already. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 16:28, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

@Super Dromaeosaurus: Redirecting to Palestinian genocide accusation has already been tried by Parham wiki and was reverted by Vinegarymass911 with the comments that these two articles are "... not the same thing and this should not be merged without a discussion". Also, while article titles should be precise, advice also exists that precise language should not date quickly. Now it is January 2024, I also have to wonder at the wisdom of including the year in the article title. The current conflict in Gaza does not look like being over any time soon, so a change in title is probably warranted. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 00:06, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

I think we should merge this and the (currently somewhat shambolic) Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Hamas attack on Israel into a neutral Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israel–Hamas war (or whatever the main article ends up getting moved to). Keeping two separate articles is a recipe for POV forking based on original research and synthesis, rather than a collaborative effort to summarize, with due weighting, what reliable sources say - which is what we're supposed to be doing here. PrimaPrime (talk) 10:15, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree. To me the current situation just seems like a WP:FALSEBALANCE situation, editors creating certain articles and other editors creating their equivalent of the other side as a reaction. Though if it was up to me I'd completely delete the genocide by Hamas one and merge this one into the general one for a Palestinian genocide, which is an article in a much better shape and standing. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 11:46, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure if there is much in common between the two articles to merit a merger? VR _talk 06:19, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

There is, quite obviously in my view, much in common between the two. They're the same article but about the opposite side in the same war. And both are alleged genocides. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 15:14, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Can you explain what is in common? In other words, wouldn't that article just consist of two sections: "allegations against Israel", and "allegations against Hamas". VR _talk 20:46, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

At least that would provide some balance. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 20:55, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

WP:FALSEBALANCE. WillowCity^(talk) 23:54, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

I also cannot see what is in common, nor what balance. Hamas is certainly accused of having genocidal intent towards Israel, but I have heard of no one who thinks that October 7 - however indiscriminate and bloody it was - was a realistic attempt to eliminate Israel or the Israeli people. Pincrete (talk) 10:47, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

International law references "genocidal acts" in discussions of genocide. Essentially, genocidal intent + violent action to pursue that intent = genocidal act. Hamas has absolutely been accused of genocidal acts re 7 October. It's why the genocide conventions say "in whole or in part". But that's hardly germane to this discussion. Jbbdude (talk) 02:28, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

It would only be false balance if the two sides were presented perfectly equally rather than in proportion to the weight they are given in reliable sources. I imagine we could have a shorter section about accusations of genocide against Hamas re: October 7, followed by a longer section about accusations of genocide against Israel in the ensuing war. PrimaPrime (talk) 07:28, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Civilian attack infobox

The article has acquired a civilian attack infobox. It is much less muddled, PoV and synthy than that of the related 'historic' article infobox. Still, is this apt for an article about accusations? Pincrete (talk) 06:51, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

I would say not. PrimaPrime (talk) 07:31, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Considering various other genocide accusation articles, including specifically in contexts of war, also use the same infobox for a brief summary, it would seem to be the best one we have until a specific one is created, and would be in line to how we treat other articles of a similar nature. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 13:45, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

This is less synthy than the related infobox, but how do you decide what are the motives for an allegation? Who says that the motives are Anti-Palestinianism or Settler colonialism? Finally, where in the article are these motives expounded?Pincrete (talk) 10:40, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

It may be better to leave that section blank until we have more comprehensive sources that state the alleged motives. Though for a the three motives listed, on the first that is easy to cite to the statements of Israeli officials on declaring war against Hamas and Gaza. The second you could cite to previous statements in recent years from government officials and politicians, such as declaring Palestine and Palestinians do not exist, alongside statements that declare the West Bank and Gaza as Israeli territory, and the dehumanising language used against Palestinians both before October 2023 and since. For the third point, you'd cite it to such papers as:

• Wolfe, Patrick (21 December 2006). "Settler colonialism and the elimination of the native". Journal of Genocide Research. 8 (4): 387–409. doi:10.1080/14623520601056240.
• Rashed, Haifa; Short, Damien (2012). "Genocide and settler colonialism: can a Lemkin-inspired genocide perspective aid our understanding of the Palestinian situation?". The International Journal of Human Rights. 16 (8): 1142–1169. doi:10.1080/13642987.2012.735494. S2CID 145422458.
• Shaw, Martin (2013). "Palestine and Genocide: An International Historical Perspective Revisited". Holy Land Studies. 12 (1): 1–7. doi:10.3366/hls.2013.0056.

You could also cite it to any of the news pieces written which cover the treatment of Palestinians in the Palestinian territories by Israeli settlers. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 18:35, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

"We will eliminate everything"

This is a mistranslation and misinformation. The actual quote is Gaza will not return to what it was before. There will be no Hamas. We will eliminate it all. [1] --Hob Gadling (talk) 11:30, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

I've modified so as to report the initial quote - and its correction rather than simply linking to an article saying "the quote was wrong".Pincrete (talk) 10:35, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

That is NYT correction (ie they reviewed the thing again) of their initial report so they believe it to be "everything". Selfstudier (talk) 11:13, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Suggested edit: Main article link for Defense for Children International-Palestine et al v. Biden et al

After the heading === Center for Constitutional Rights lawsuit ===

I request that a link to the main article for this lawsuit be inserted on the line immediately following that heading.

Main article: Defense for Children International-Palestine et al v. Biden et al

Lovelano (talk) 07:43, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done, thanks. — kashmīrī ^TALK 10:16, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Link to Channel 14

Channel 14 is mentioned twice in the article. It is not clear what / who this channel is. It would be better to make the first reference a link to the Wikipedia article about Channel 14. 86.139.218.163 (talk) 13:42, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done, thanks. — Pincrete (talk) 13:54, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Edit request 13 February 2024

Description of suggested change: Please add a wikilink for "Genocidal intent" to the phrase "intent to destroy" in the first paragraph, so that it reads [[Genocidal intent|intent to destroy]].

Diff:

−

ORIGINAL_TEXT

+

CHANGED_TEXT

188.176.174.30 (talk) 10:36, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done — kashmīrī ^TALK 11:11, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. 188.176.174.30 (talk) 11:40, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Rhetoric from politicians in the United States

What does this section have to do with anything? Ron DeSantis and other American wingnuts don't speak for the Israeli government, they aren't proof of genocidal intent. jftsang 13:03, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Well, to be fair, as far as I am aware, the Israeli government is extremely closely allied in major policy issues with the politicians of both the main U.S. parties. [2] [3] David A (talk) 14:49, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

It is, but then again people like RDS aren't actually in charge of American foreign or military affairs, so it's hard to see how that applies. If it were Biden, that'd be different. jftsang 10:41, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree. We don't need to quote every nut who decides to comment about the Middle East situation, especially if it concerns legal aspects. Just because someone was shown on Fox News or CNN doesn't mean it must go into an encyclopaedia. — kashmīrī ^TALK 10:56, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

I've removed the section, as no reason was presented why the internal electoral rhetoric in the US should be given prominence in the section about legal aspects of Israeli actions. — kashmīrī ^TALK 11:05, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Okay. Never mind then. David A (talk) 15:04, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Should the information be moved to the following page instead? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war David A (talk) 16:18, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, looks like a good target. — kashmīrī ^TALK 16:30, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Okay. Would you be willing to handle it, or should we wait for more confirmations first? David A (talk) 16:38, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Maybe someone else could do it... I somehow don't find it rewarding to spend my time on DeSantis's speeches. Sorry! — kashmīrī ^TALK 17:25, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

The point is it was deemed prevalent and noteworthy enough to include in the article Palestinian genocide accusation, where the "Rhetoric" section is all bar 1 (small) paragraph is about the 2023-2024 conflict. As that article is meant to cover the broader and full history of the genocide accusation, the commentary on politicians complicity and also inciting genocide is better suited being in this article. And, a single day for a "discussion" to be decided, especially on hot articles like this seems a bit premature, to say the least. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 17:30, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

I do not personally mind if the section in question is returned, but what do you think about my suggestion above? David A (talk) 19:09, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

That could work, then reduce the text in the two genocide accusation pages done to a brief overview, while linking to the relevant section of United States support for Israel in the Israel–Hamas war. I do believe it's unwieldly for the genocide accusation articles in it's current state, and this is after I've already been through and condensed the text from it's previous even-more expansive state. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 21:35, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

@Kashmiri and Jftsang: Would that solution be acceptable for you? David A (talk) 06:20, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

It seems like the other, more on-topic, page organises such comments more concisely and in chronological order though, so that format likely needs to be adhered to there. David A (talk) 06:24, 24 February 2024 (UTC)