Talk:American Dad!/Archive 3

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WP:DRN Info

A WP:DRN case was recently opened [1] on whether or not the rating information would be included in this article. Consensus has ruled in against including such information. Please do not include the info in question as your edit will simply be reverted. If you would like to know more details, please see the link provided. Thank you.EnglishEfternamn_*t/c* 22:09, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough. And I didn't resist the edit in question because I've honestly tired of Doniago and want nothing to do with him. As stated above, I'm largely ignoring Doniago's failed shenanigans to have me blocked at this point. He didn't give a hoot about the edit in question. He started up the trivial altercation for the purposes of getting me blocked, as he made clear to you in the dispute resolution noticeboard discussion in which he was supposed to be focused on the content dispute but wasn't (shown here [2] and here [3] where he's still bringing up my "conduct" and whining about not getting his way at the Administrative Noticeboards in trying to get me blocked). The user should have been called out for still whining about that in the resolution noticeboard discussion that was intended to be focused on the content dispute. As he did for the entirety of this debate, he was disobedient there too and not focusing on the content dispute like he was told by numerous editors. He hardly even debated out the matter and spent the vast majority of the time going from person to person, encouraging them to support him in blocking me. The user was showing up at my user talk page just yesterday after I received compliments from other editors. He should be blocked for his harassment. Doniago is very lucky I didn't take harsher actions with him and inform an administrator of his lies, disobedience, and harassment all of which is detailed in my post above. He spent the entire content dispute trying to get editors to support to have me blocked and when this failed, whined, bellyached, and bickered. The next time he pulls these obnoxious shenanigans, I'll be reporting him and presenting a detailed complaint with links to his antics. The user can consider this as his warning. Goodbye! AmericanDad86 (talk) 23:34, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

The sections of the article should be rearranged and merged

Hello, I think that the whole passage's sequence is not logical, and it is not easy to read, especially for those who are not familiar with the show. I think an article about a TV show should first be about its productions, then its themes, then its ramifications(reception, DVD, etc.).

I personally think The sections should be arranged as follows: Production(The sections "Origins and progression","Episode pre-production process" and "Voice cast" should be merged into this part); Characters (two sub-sections: main, recurring); Setting; Themes and Characteristics (merger of "Recurring themes", "Intro and closing themes" and "plot techniques"); Broadcast(most of "Adjustments in on-air presentation, production and broadcasts" should be added into this section, "Reception and Nielsen ratings data"("Nielsen ratings data" part), some new stuff should be added too); Reception and achievements (merger of "Reception and Nielsen ratings data"(except "Nielsen ratings data" part) and "Season number discrepancy and episode misreports"); "Other Media" (merger of "DVD releases" and "Potential film adaptation"). The last three sections ("Crossovers with other animated sitcoms", "References", "External links") need not be changed. Thus, the sections will be fewer and clearer, and the article will be more logical.

I got the idea from the sections of the Wikipedia article The Simpsons.

This idea may need some tweaks, but it is worth thinking about.

Thanks! Mysik1216 (talk) 10:10, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Body Swapping?

Is it appropriate for Body Swapping to be listed as a category for the series entire, or do editors feel this would be more appropriate attached to individual episode articles? Thanks. DonIago (talk) 15:35, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Individual episode only. It's not a main theme of the show, and we don't need over categorization. CTF83! 00:39, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback! DonIago (talk) 07:36, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Cast

For most television series, the cast is listed at the top of the article, sometimes integrated with the character descriptions. But in this article, the actors are named at the bottom of the page. I'd like to make this change but I thought I'd post about it here first. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 18:00, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

No problem here. CTF83! 23:36, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Season 11 & season 12 dispute

Could we get some input?!

User Wattlebird is insisting that the three unaired episodes to be broadcast on Fox this fall are apart of their own separate season, "season 11." The three episodes will air on only two dates, with two back-to-back episodes on September 14 and one episode on September 21. Wattlebird is going to various Wikipedia pages, rearranging a lot of sourced info based upon this recent announcement, labeling these three episodes as the new “micro-season 11” and rewording the 15-episode TBS order as no longer being “season 11”, but now "season 12." His one and only source for making this move is that it was worded as “season premiere” at the Zap2it website, as shown here [4]. I don't think this one and only source and its vague wording at best is enough to warrant this drastic overhaul and labeling season 11 as now being a "micro-season" of 3 episodes.

On my user talk page, Wattlebird went so far as labeling the Zap2it source as an official press release from Fox, as shown here [5]. However, Zap2it is in no way connected to Fox.

Every source on the Internet regarding an “American Dad season 11” state it as being apart of TBS as opposed to "season 11" being three leftover episodes to air on FOX, such as shown here [6] here [7] and here [8]. These are a few examples among many.

On the other hand, I am seeing zero sources describing the TBS season as a “season 12” and the three episodes on Fox as a “micro-season 11.” I don’t feel one source, especially Zap2it, wording it as “season premiere” warrants a complete overhaul of information on Wikipedia that’s based on numerous sources across the Web and that are already embedded all over Wikipedia. These sources are not only embedded all over American Dad Wikipedia articles, but in the areas right where Wattlebird makes his changes—as he doesn't bother to remove the sources that don't support his claims wants he has changed information—causing blatant inconsistencies between what he's inserted and the sources that follow.

In addition, there are no sources that even discuss an “American Dad season 12 and it's airing date", let alone that it will air on Fox this fall. If you look up “American Dad season 12” on Google, nothing really appears, let alone about it premiering on TBS in the fall of 2014, as shown here [9]. All sources describe “season 11” as premiering as part of TBS in the fall of 2014.

There are sources from September 2013 that go so far as stating that the three episodes to air on Fox are apart of season 10. So my thinking is that these 3 episodes are just leftover season 10 episodes and that season 10 is a two-part season, as opposed to season 11 being a “micro-season” of three episodes to air on 2 dates. None of the sources on the Internet even speak of a season 12 and a truncated season 11, not even Wattlebird’s source. Feedback would be much appreciated! Thank you!AmericanDad86 (talk) 18:41, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

OK, let's do this...

On my user talk page, Wattlebird went so far as labeling the Zap2it source as an official press release from Fox, as shown here[10]. However, Zap2it is in no way connected to Fox

You clearly do not know the difference between a press release and an article. In this instance - that is not an article by "zap2it". It's a direct copy and paste of a press from FOX - which is why it also appears word-for word on theFutonCritic[11] AND on FOX's OFFICIAL publicity website[12]. It's a document that FOX have released and has then been circulated throughout the internet.

Every source on the Internet regarding an “American Dad season 11” state it as being apart of TBS as opposed to "season 11" being three leftover episodes to air on FOX, such as shown here [13] here [14] and here [15]. These are a few examples among many.

You cannot use the fact that previous articles referred to TBS' first run of the show as "Season 11" as evidence that the micro-season shouldn't be labeled as such because up until July 20th - no-one outside of FOX even knew that there were still unaired episodes. So of course they were going to refer to the next group of episodes as the eleventh season. Any article prior to July 20th that refers to the TBS season as Season 11 is irrelevant for this reason.

On the other hand, I am seeing zero sources describing the TBS season as a “season 12” and the three episodes on Fox as a “micro-season 11.” I don’t feel one source, especially Zap2it, wording it as “season premiere” warrants a complete overhaul of information on Wikipedia that’s based on numerous sources across the Web and that are already embedded all over Wikipedia.

Too bad. It's an official document released by FOX that clearly labels it as a season premiere as the press release clearly says:

First, in the special one-hour season premiere

These sources are not only embedded all over American Dad Wikipedia articles, but in the areas right where Wattlebird makes his changes—as he doesn't bother to remove the sources that don't support his claims wants he has changed information—causing blatant inconsistencies between what he's inserted and the sources that follow.

Just because one small piece of information has changed based on new information coming to light doesn't discredit the other information being pulled from it.

In addition, there are no sources that even discuss an “American Dad season 12 and it's airing date", let alone that it will air on Fox this fall. If you look up “American Dad season 12” on Google, nothing really appears, let alone about it premiering on TBS in the fall of 2014, as shown here [16]. All sources describe “season 11” as premiering as part of TBS in the fall of 2014.

Again, this is only new information that has only recently come to light. You cannot use a lack of Google search results as evidence of anything.

There are sources from September 2013 that go so far as stating that the three episodes to air on Fox are apart of season 10

No there isn't. FOX announced guest stars in September 2013 that would appear in episodes produced in the eighth production cycle that were, at the time, set to air at some point in the tenth season between September 2013 and May 2014 but clearly that didn't happen and plans changed.

So my thinking is that these 3 episodes are just leftover season 10 episodes and that season 10 is a two-part season, as opposed to season 11 being a “micro-season” of three episodes to air on 2 dates.

So, you want to edit Wikipedia based on your opinion, rather than basing everything off an official press release that was released by FOX? That makes no sense...

None of the sources on the Internet even speak of a season 12 and a truncated season 11, not even Wattlebird’s source.

Once again, that's because this is only new information that has recently come to light. And why would FOX mention Season 12 on TBS when the whole press release was centered on upcoming guest stars on their animated shows?

At the end of the day, the only thing that matters FOX have clearly labeled this a season premiere in their press release. Anything else is merely an opinion or personal preference Unfortunately the fact you don't like it, and think it should be different, doesn't count for anything. - Wattlebird (talk) 21:20, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

My own opinion FWIW, is that going to season 12 is just digging the discrepancy hole deeper. I am curious from an outsiders point of view, how wikipedia is going deal with the future information coming from TBS that may say season 10 [17] or 11 [18], but not 12? 108.226.145.151 (talk) 21:25, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm thinking maybe season 10 starts on Fox and then continues on TBS? Either that or these are just leftover season 10 episodes. It's really too early to jump to conclusions though. Koala15 (talk) 23:38, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Completely agree with you two. By the way, I just looked up American Dad! on Google and the following StarOnline source came up, as shown here [19]. As you can see, it describes the three episodes left to air on FOX as the "end of season 10," not its own three-episode mini-season or whatever. Moreover, it still describes the TBS order as season 11. Very consistent with what I've been trying to tell WattleBird. Still have yet to see any source specifying it as a mini-season 11 and TBS as a season 12. AmericanDad86 (talk) 21:29, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Except that is a third-party source, whereas the FOX press release is a first-party source - which supersedes anything third-party. And yes you have seen something saying it's a seperate season - the press release clearly said "season premiere" not "when season 10 returns" or something similar. - Wattlebird (talk) 21:39, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

As stated, Fox press release didn't specify anything regarding number of seasons. You came to a conclusion based upon vague wording. As other users have tried explaining to you, 3 episodes to air on 2 dates is not a full season, and it will only create further discrepancies in the future.AmericanDad86 (talk) 22:06, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

@AmericanDad86: How is "season premiere" and "season finale" not specific enough? Per Fox's press release: "First, in the special one-hour season premiere (Sunday, Sept. 14, 9:00-10:00 PM ET/PT), Roger [...]. In the final FOX episode' (Sunday, Sept. 21, 9:30-10:00 PM ET/PT)". I realize this extra season seems stupid, but it is what it is. Davejohnsan (talk) 00:51, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

I feel I have made my stance more than clear in my detailed post from above without having to repeat anything. I am going to make this easy. I have e-mailed Annie Geffroy, the woman in charge of American Dad! for Fox Flash (as according to the website of the press release [20]) and left her a voicemail and e-mail, inquiring on what exactly was meant by the statement, if it in fact carried all these implications, and what is considered season 10, season 11 and season 12. That way, we don't have to argue about it until we're blue in the face. Just so all are informed, my letter to Ms. Geffroy is copy and pasted down below. Thank you!

Dear Ms. Geffroy:

I am an editor of the English Wikipedia known as AmericanDad86. Recently, there has been some confusion among some editors of the website based upon a recent Fox Flash press release. The Fox Flash press release causing this confusion is located at the following web address: http://www.foxflash.com/div.php/main/page?aID=1z2z2z254z9z8&ID=17091

Up until that press release came out on July 20, 2014, it was thought that season 10 had concluded on May 18, 2014, and that season 11 would begin on TBS this fall. That is what was being reported all over the media in articles discussing the topic.

However with the arrival of your press release on July 20th, there is now confusion as to what's considered season 10, season 11 and consequently season 12. Your recent press release revealed that American Dad had 3 new episodes left to air on Fox, that 2 of those episodes would air on September 14 and the 3rd and final episode on September 21.

Now it is my understanding that these 3 upcoming episodes are just the end of season 10, which ran 20 episodes during the 2013-14 television season. That is my understanding based upon A) the number of episodes left, again only 3 and on only 2 dates B.) all the past reports explicitly stating that season 10 is the final season on Fox and season 11 is the first season on TBS. C.) Fox having done this 2-part season once before, that being for the first episode and the remaining 7 episodes of the first season.

However, there is a contrasting belief that season 11 is no longer the 15-episode TBS season, but now rather the 3 episodes left to air on Fox. The 2 individuals making this claim are also under the impression that the 15-episode TBS season is now season 12, no longer season 11. These 2 individuals are asserting this based upon the words "season premiere" used in your Fox Flash press release. Your Fox Flash press release reads as follows, "First, in the special one-hour season premiere (Sunday, Sept. 14, 9:00-10:00 PM ET/PT)."

I have tried arguing that if all this were the case that Fox Flash would have detailed this or at least elaborated beyond "season premiere" with nothing more. Given that all the previous reports state that Fox ends with season 10 and TBS starts with season 11, I felt that elaboration would most certainly be provided if such a drastic change in season numbering were intended by Fox. However, the two editors in disagreement seem to think your usage of "season premiere" was crystal clear as to all the aforementioned implications.

A small majority of us at Wikipedia concluded that these 3 episodes were the end of season 10. In addition, media sources are beginning to support that notion as well, as shown in the following web address: http://www.thestar.com.my/Lifestyle/Entertainment/TV/News/2014/07/23/American-Dad-to-celebrate-end-of-Fox-run-with-Kim-Kardashian/ . With that, I thought consensus had been reached on the issue. However, another editor has since come in and supported the user in disagreement. So just to avoid the draining and never-ending back and forth arguments that regularly go on at the website, I am contacting you to inquire directly as to what was meant by "season premiere," and also what episodes exactly are considered season 10, season 11, and if relevant season 12?

If you could revise your Fox Flash press release so that your meaning is more clear, that would be very much appreciated. AmericanDad86 (talk) 06:40, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

That is well and good on the assumption if TBS were follow the short 1st season model, but they actually have followed the long 1st season http://www.tbs.com/shows/american-dad.html and claim the 9th season just finished. A 3 episode FOX season 10 actually works into the TBS 11th season. 108.226.145.151 (talk) 13:39, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Very much agreed, IP! AmericanDad86 (talk) 19:26, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

@AmericanDad86:I honestly don't see the ambiguity here, even with the season number of these upcoming three episodes omitted from the official press release, but since you've already contacted a Fox employee regarding this matter, I don't see how discussing this any further you will change your mind until the lady responds...if she bothers to do so. We'll see. Davejohnsan (talk) 14:56, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Dave, what was the point of your posting?! You have already explained that you don't see the ambiguity. There's no need to keep hitting that point home. As three users and a reliable source explicitly disagree with you, however, you'll have to accept that others see it differently from you. For that reason, I have asked the staff member responsible what she meant. It's not about changing my mind and arguing me into submission. That should not be your goal. Your goal should be coming to the correct answer. AmericanDad86 (talk) 19:26, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Which three users and which reliable source would that be? Davejohnsan (talk) 20:06, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

FYI, if she replies with an answer as an e-mail, there is no way for us to verify that the reply is genuine, so you wouldn't be able to use it as a source...

It's not about changing my mind and arguing me into submission. That should not be your goal. Your goal should be coming to the correct answer.

We've already reached the correct answer, as there is a first-party source which clearly defines it as a season premiere. However you seem to disagree with it and are trying to claim that a third-party ARTICLE is a more accurate source than something FOX themselves released and won't give up because you don't want it to be this way. - Wattlebird (talk) 20:33, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

You know, they are about two choices about this episode number confusing mess. For one, we could add the three unaired episodes to Season Ten, therefore TBS has its official Season 11, catching everything up and no Season 11 and Season 12 shit.

For two, FoxFlash.com says that the season beginning with Steve and Snot's Test-Tubular adventure is Season Nine, so I think we should go back and fix it so Season One begins with 23 episodes and Season Three is Season Two and so-on. And the three un-aired episodes would be Season Ten and TBS' is Season 11 ending the big clusterfuck shit.

Thoughts on this? Spongey253 (talk) 15:10, 26 July 2014 (UTC)Spongey253

Makes sense. - Wattlebird (talk) 05:26, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

So what have we agreed on? This discussion hasn't gone anywhere in days and I'd like to make sure we can reach something here... Davejohnsan (talk) 15:04, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Given literally no-one has objected to converting to the other season-labeling method and labeling the three episodes as season 10, so TBS' episodes can still be season 11 - I guess that's what's been agreed on. Even though it's the same result as just labeling the upcoming FOX episodes as season 11 and TBS as season 12, just with a lot more work and effort.

I didn't vote since I consider myself more of a fan than an editor, but bringing in "Season 12" is the last thing that should be done unless TBS revises their own count. We have a definitive season count from them that I think everyone else will be on board with as far as other media. Whatever it takes to match that should be done. 108.226.145.151 (talk) 00:33, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

My sentiments exactly, especially on whatever takes to match should be done. Making moves that would create more discrepancies would leave regular editors of this article with the unenviable task of making even more reversions and trying to resolve even more debates. As it is, there's enough debate over the first season discrepancy. AmericanDad86 (talk) 03:06, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to add my $0.02 We know FOX is calling 09/14 the "Season Premiere" & unless I missed it they aren't calling any date after the "Season Finale", correct? The wording here (https://tv.yahoo.com/news/fox-announces-simpsons-futurama-crossover-ha nk-azaria-joins-173200335.html) of "Fox finale of American Dad on Sunday, Sept. 21" isn't referring to a Season Finale, it's simply means the last episode that's airing on FOX Unless FOX eventually says that's what they are, it's absurd to ascribe three episodes as its own season so September 14th is the start of Season 10 and then it simply moves & continues on TBS after September 21st, whatever that date is going to be. KYLE (talk) 01:41, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

I actually like this idea. Davejohnsan (talk) 14:58, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

All right people! It looks like consensus is clearly against the absurd idea that the three episodes airing in September are a "microseason." Only two editors were arguing that theory while it seems everyone else either wants it to be as part of the 2013-14 Fox season or the 2014-15 TBS season. With that, I have removed the reference to "microseason" from the article. AmericanDad86 (talk) 03:06, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

No, consensus has not been reached. You're just reading what you want and for some reason, have completely disregarded Spongey253's idea which had no opposition at all.

And before a final decision is made, you need to explain why you think the FOX press release is wrong - every reason you used earlier has been debunked, so do you have any other explanations you want to make up?

Before you reply, remember this: yes there are sources that refer to TBS' episodes as season 11, but that's all from before anyone outside of FOX knew there were still three unaired episodes. ANY source that refers to TBS as season 11 that was published PRIOR to the FOX press release is NOW INVALID AND it cannot be a third party article - it will have to be something official from a first-party source (FOX, TBS, 20th Century etc) - Wattlebird (talk) 08:16, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

WattleBird, cut the crap! User Spongey has voted against a 3 episode microseason 11 and season 12, going so far as saying "no season 11 and season 12 shit." He also made this edit at the American Dad (season 10) article [21], incorporating the three episodes as season 10. Now if you continue to play games here at the talkpage and revert against consensus, I will report you on the spot. Actually, I am just going to go ahead and report you now as I really don't have the patience for the games! AmericanDad86 (talk) 09:58, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

It's pretty clear that these 3 extra episodes are just leftovers from season 10, since 23 were originally ordered. So it makes sense to just put it in that season unless a bunch of sources say otherwise. Koala15 (talk) 14:16, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Oops. I got the wrong user, I meant KYLE. My bad.

Besides, you STILL haven't provided enough reasoning to explain why the FOX press release is invalid for consensus to have been appropriately met because you haven't gotten involved with the discussion at all... You MUST explain yourself so that if someone comes along in six months time and tries to edit this particular issue, they can be pointed to the talk page and can read the entire discussion to understand why it is the way it is - as it stands, they would just see a vote which is what you've turned this into. - Wattlebird (talk) 18:09, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

To Wattlebird, I wasn't participating in a vote (at least that was not my intention), I was asked to give my opinion on this issue, and I've never been fond of this Wikipedia setup so I rarely use it so I wasn't necessarily able to fully discuss this issue (if that makes sense), but I digress.

Here's what's known as far as I've seen as of today August 04... The season premiere (Season 10) starts September 14th as per FOX. The show moves to TBS on October 30th and per Matt Weitzman, it will be part of Season 10.

Unless, & I find it HIGHLY unlikely they will, TBS comes out with a press release/episode guide describing the episodes from October 30th onward as American Dad's aired Season 11, to me, the debate is settled. Season 9 aired from September 29th 2013 to May 18th 2014 & Season 10 aired from September 14th through (presumably) January 2015. There is no 3 episode season. If something happens in six months that contradicts the known things of today and someone wants to edit, then feel free. KYLE (talk) 21:12, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

I think the words "season premiere" (on a press release!) and the fact that the three episodes are airing next September (which marks the beginning of the 2014-2015 tv season) clearly makes them whether the beginning of a new season or a stand-alone season (I prefer the latter because a season with two different networks just feels strange). The fact they are part of the 8AJN production season is irrelevant, because many times broadcast seasons don't correspond to production seasons: as of today, for example, American Dad! itself has had 10 broadcast seasons but only 8 production seasons (episodes from production season 2AJN are present in 3 different broadcast seasons!). To people who think that just three episodes can't make one season, I answer that there's no rule on a season's lenght: other shows have seasons made of three or even two episodes (such as Sherlock, Poirot and Marple). I agree with Wattlebird when he says, quoting, that "there are sources that refer to TBS' episodes as season 11, but that's all from before anyone outside of FOX knew there were still three unaired episodes. ANY source that refers to TBS as season 11 that was published PRIOR to the FOX press release is NOW INVALID". To conclude, I'd like to remark that third party sources are unreliable because anybody can produce several ones that support his theory. - Ioiops (talk) 16:39, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Oh, I forgot to mention the summer hiatus after the episode that FOX explicity called "season finale".[22] - Ioiops (talk) 17:05, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

I'd say we just leave it the way it is until TBS' "season 11" is over. I highly doubt that "Season 10" begins with the three unaired FOX episodes and continues on TBS. That just seems stupid as all hell. Spongey253 (talk) 01:02, 6 August 2014 (UTC)Spongey253.

I agree with you on that. However I still disagree with including the three episodes with those that aired September 2013 to May 2014. For two, extremely clear reasons:

• FOX clearly labeled the episode that aired on May 18th 2014 as the season finale[23]. Note: FOX would have been aware there were still unaired episodes at this point.
• FOX clearly labeled the first two episodes to air on September 14th 2014 as a season premiere[24].

Now, if one of these two press releases had said something that contradicted the other then yes I would suggest combining them, but the lines have very clearly been drawn here by FOX. I realise that this is the first time it has been pointed out that the May 18th episode was clearly labeled a season finale (and NOT a mid-season finale!) in a press release and wonder if this changes AmericanDad86, Koala15 and Spongey253's opinion at all... - Wattlebird (talk) 04:36, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

If you think about it, last year FOX did announce that Season 11 would premiere on TBS, but that's before they knew any episodes would be unaired. However, I still think it'd be better to just leave the three episodes as part of "Season 10" for right now. Or we could wait until TBS or FOX gives another press release stating that the "microseason" is "Season 10" and TBS' is Season 11, or if there is no Season 11, and FOX's three episodes start "Season 10" and ending Season 10 with the final episode of the first TBS season (meaning we'd have to go back and fix everything.) Let's just leave everything the way it is right now. But as of right now, my opinion isn't changing. Spongey253 (talk) 17:37, 7 August 2014 (UTC)Spongey253

I would like to point out that it's nearly been a week since I made a comment and asked AmericanDad86 for his opinion, and he's clearly been active on Wikipedia in the last week and has either ignored the notification he received that I had mentioned him in an edit, or he's read my comment and decided it's not worth commenting on. Nonetheless, he is clearly refusing to continue discussion on this issue. - Wattlebird (talk) 12:07, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Having turned the debate over for moderation, I see it as being polite and waiting for an answer. That said, I wish they would get a move on now. 108.226.145.151 (talk) 15:10, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

That's a strange way to see it when the dispute board encourages continued discussion on the talk page in the interim. - Wattlebird (talk) 22:56, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

IP 108.226.145.151, you are exactly right, and I would like to thank you for assuming good faith. I can only hope that WattleBird learns from your example. This debate is already convoluted enough as it is without the same individual repeatedly ragging on and on about why he is right and his opponents are wrong.AmericanDad86 (talk) 13:06, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

No, I offered a new piece of information (that yes, further backs up my claim) and I wanted your opinion on it. But you've just flat out ignored it for some unknown reason... - Wattlebird (talk) 20:55, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I was unable to find any first-party source by FOX that explicitly calls the TBS season "season 11", can anyone produce one? However, assuming it exists, it can be explained by assuming that FOX originally intended to broadcast just one season but then three episodes had left and FOX had to do this (episodes are often delayed to the next season). I think a change of plans is more likely than a double misreporting by a first-party source (calling the May episode "season finale" and the September episode "season premiere"). Another suitable solution is KYLE's theory that season 11 is premiering on FOX and then continuing on TBS. I know it's strange but there's no rule against it, and it seems to be accepted by some influential sources such as epguides.com [25] (I'm not saying this source proves the theory, I'm just saying that the idea isn't that crazy as you may think). Ioiops (talk) 17:24, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

How about a simple vote, or at least a non-binding straw poll of what people think should be done? No debate, but pick a letter:

A: The three episodes are a continuation of Season 10, TBS starts on 11.

B: The three episodes are a micro season 11, and assume TBS will revise their count to start on 12th season.

C: Revert the entire season count to the long 1st season, micro season 10 and TBS starts on 11th season.

D: The three episodes are part of TBS Season 11.

E: Other (Very short explanation)

108.226.145.151 (talk) 01:03, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

C 108.226.145.151 (talk) 01:04, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

A AmericanDad86 (talk) 02:09, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

I think the vote should just decide what season the three episodes belong to (the 2013-2014 FOX season, the 2014-2015 TBS season or a stand-alone "micro"-season), regardless of the number they get. Reverting the season count is a different issue, if we want to do it we should do another poll. Ioiops (talk) 08:09, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

I selected what seems to be the most popular ideas that have been presented and the intention was not to shut anyone out. During the debate, I noticed that sometimes a position would be supported at least temporarily and this way it helps sort out all of the potential outcomes that I can think of. Perhaps the season reversion may not be the final preferred choice, but it was brought up and had majority support on August 1 and the matter was nearly settled then.[26] 108.226.145.151 (talk) 11:24, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

I know, but they're two different problems and they should be treated separately. The final numbering will be the result of two different discussions. Ioiops (talk) 09:55, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

However, what's the point? There are two FOX press releases that prove the three episodes are not part of the 2013-2014 season, and nothing official that says otherwise. All the sources saying TBS season is "season 11" are third-party sources and usually predate FOX's announcement of these episodes. Ioiops (talk) 16:19, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

YES!!!!!!!!!! THANK YOU!!!!!!!!! - Wattlebird (talk) 06:07, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

I think it might be a good idea to keep the twenty-three episode Season 10. It looks good the way it is, plus the three leftovers are from the same production season, (meaning I am voting for A) A three episode season also looks horrible. Let's just keep it the way I edited it with the 23 episode Season 10. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spongey253 (talk • contribs) 23:44, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

As I already said, the production season is irrelevant since many other episodes belonging to a certain production season air during a different broadcast season: before the three episodes there have been 10 broadcast seasons but only 8 production seasons. I also produced examples of TV shows with seasons made of three or even two episodes (Sherlock, Poirot and Marple), so though it looks strange a three-episode season isn't impossible. The only things that count are the fact that FOX describes the episode The Longest Distance Relationship as "season finale" and, after a summer hiatus, announces a "season premiere" airing at the beginning of the 2014-2015 season on the same press release where the new season of other shows are announced. It simply is a new season, I just can't see any other solution. Ioiops (talk) 15:41, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Since the request for input went nowhere, it appears the three episodes are treated as a new season. (Which I never questioned.) I just can't wait to see how things shake out since TBS is already known to use the long first season model. 108.226.144.192 (talk) 20:08, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

There is now a third press release from FOX which is consistent with the September 2014 episodes being a seperate season from the "September 2013 - May 2014" batch of episodes.[27] As far I'm concerned, this solidifies what needs to be done here and there is no questioning it any further... - Wattlebird (talk) 09:34, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Four: FoxFlash has identified it as at least the start of a whole new season.[28] 108.226.144.192 (talk) 21:37, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

This is all nice and well if you found a couple of other sources like your Fox Flash source or whatever, but Spongey253, Koala15, myself and several others disagree for the reasons stated above. And it does no good for the same parties to keep on coming her ragging on and on about why they're right and why they're edit is best.

Bottomline! It seems there's no consensus at this point and we simply have to wait for more editors for one to be reached. Uninvolved editors are likely to be scared off from this discussion because as it stands it's so long due to the sheer amount of the same editors choose to keep coming here ragging on and on about why they're right with comments like "YES!!!! THANK YOU!!!" [29] Eye roll! Let's also not engage like this is a contest to be one and perhaps it will be easier for a consensus to be established.

I'm thinking since the sheer length of this discussion is so intimidating, we start a new section and lay out the facts simply, succinctly and straightforwardly. And I ask that the same individuals not clog up the discussion with why they're right 100 times in a row. And I also ask not to be harassed by user WattleBird to come here and keep telling everyone why I feel am right. My advice is you have had your say, you DROP IT and allow a new user to have their say without ragging with repeated posts (which leads to bickering) so we can come to some form of consensus. AmericanDad86 (talk) 06:10, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

So rather than having a conversation, you want a monologue? What's that going to achieve?

I also ask not to be harassed by user WattleBird to come here and keep telling everyone why I feel am right

Remember, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and everything, including decisions, need to have valid sources to back them up. You still haven't done this yet with your stance, and you're now the one in the position with the burden of proof to show why three separate press releases are incorrect, as well as the separate season listing on FOXFlash that 108.226.144.192 pointed out earlier.

Without a valid, sourced argument, even if you had 100,000 people agreeing with you, your edit wouldn't meet encyclopedic requirements and would simply be reverted. - Wattlebird (talk) 06:55, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

WattleBird, this is multiple times now you’ve lied, making statements that make it seem like I haven’t offered my stance and sources on this subject. You were already called out for this by another user, as shown here [30]. Despite that, you’re continuing on in the lying games with remarks that I haven't sourced my arguments.

I have already presented you with sources on this talk page that support my claims against yours. While you may have chosen to reject those sources earlier on this discussion, I don’t know who you THINK you are but you DO NOT dictate whether or not sources are reliable. Wikipedia policy governs that. And if I were you, I would brush myself up on Wikipedia policies because you're clearly out of the know on them. You have rejected my sources above with the argument that they're secondary and that yours are firsthand. Per WP:WPNOTRS and WP:SECONDARY, secondary sources are treated as more reliable than firsthand sources. Between a primary and a secondary source, Wikipedia encourages users to sooner rely on secondary sources. Also per WP:SOURCE, policy states that if material is extracted from a mainstream publication, it qualifies as perfectly reliable. There's absolutely nothing in the policy that states information must come from primary sources otherwise they aren't acceptable. That's you trying to dictate what the rules are here at Wikipedia.

As a last and final note, per WP:No Consensus you have been in violation of Wikipedia policy for quite awhile as you have chosen to incorporate your desired edits into the article and before consensus has been reached. WP:No Consensus states very explicitly the following:

“In discussions of proposals to add, modify or remove material in articles, a lack of consensus commonly results in retaining the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit. However, for contentious matters related to living people, a lack of consensus often results in the removal of the contentious matter, regardless of whether the proposal was to add, modify or remove it.”

When I rolled back the article to the original version, you chose to revert to your desired edit despite no consensus having yet been reached. AmericanDad86 (talk) 14:23, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

None of those sources indicate anything as to why the press releases are incorrect... :/ - Wattlebird (talk) 22:33, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

No Consensus

Ok, so as per WP:No Consensus, I have rolled back the articles—with regards to these edits—to the state they were in before this editing dispute. I tried doing this once before to resolve this matter and was actually thanked by User:Davejohnsan, but was then promptly reverted by WattleBird. WatlleBird's had instated his desired edit into the article (which has been left there through much of this discussion despite consensus) for the reason that he had come up with best arguments in this discussion and that his opponents aren't properly arguing with him.

As you will all see by looking at the article in its current state, NEITHER side of this disagreement is represented in the article. In rolling back to the original version, the only change I've made is to note that three episodes will air on Fox before the series moves to TBS. I have not labeled the three episodes as part of season 10, as part of their own season nor as part of season 11.

Feel free to remove all mention of the three episodes if you like as it's not technically the original long-standing edit. However, I thought the three episodes left to air on Fox deserved at least some mention in the article as long as it was unbiased to any side of this dispute.AmericanDad86 (talk) 15:17, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Three Episodes & Season 10

I recently saw over at the American Dad Wiki that "the Russia episode" now has a new plot with Roger moving in with Greg and Terry and is called "A Boy Named Michael". Also, FoxFlash now says the three episodes are Season 10. Should we just go back and fix everything? I'd also be happy to do it myself and fix up the American Dad stuff here. Spongey253 (talk) 20:39, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Oh, really Spongey253?! If Fox Flash is even stating it's apart of the 10th season, then this is a done deal. Yes, I would just say to go back and fix everything up pursuant to the new source. If you don't mind doing it yourself, that be much appreciated. If you need help, don't hesitate to message me. Glad this whole mess is resolved. Draining to say the least. Cheers Spongey253! AmericanDad86 (talk) 22:33, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

You're forgetting that FOXFlash uses the one fewer labeling method, whereas Wikipedia is using the one more labeling method - as seen here[31] where they've labeled the 2013-2014 season as season nine. Therefore, by your own admission AmericanDad86, the episodes are now separate from the September 2013 - May 2014 group of episodes because what they call season 10 over there, would be called season 11 here due to the different labeling methods being used. I WIN! - Wattlebird (talk) 22:35, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Congrats on winning, enjoy your prize! Now, let me fix up the A.D. stuff. :) Spongey253 (talk) 22:45, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. :D Now let's see if AmericanDad86 follows up his "threat" he left on Davejohnsan's talk page to leave the article if he didn't get his own way with this dispute.

All I know is that I'm bowing out of helping out with this article if it gets to the point that there's yet ANOTHER discrepancy[32]

Heh... - Wattlebird (talk) 23:07, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm almost done editing the stuff before publishing it to each page. Here's what I've done. - I basically copied each seasons' stuff and pasted it to the last and edited it to make it. (I copied Season 10's info and fixed it up to make it Season 9.) - The yellow in Season 9's page is now gray to match Volume Nine's grayness. - The main AD page I changed up alot so no one gets confused and we all get used to the 23 episode season one and so on.

I didn't change the production, DVD stuff, etc in each seasons' pages so that might be wanna be fixed by you guys. I didn't bother with it because I could of have "fucked" something up. I also noticed categories too, but you guys can fix it. I'm not being lazy but I don't wanna mess nothing up. :) Spongey253 (talk) 23:21, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

I've published them all. We are now good and no more disputing or anything :D Please feel free to fix any mistakes I made while editing (such as the stuff I mentioned above). :D — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spongey253 (talk • contribs) 00:08, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Spongey253, what are you thinking? You can't just change stuff like that without discussing it, it was all completely wrong. Koala15 (talk) 02:21, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

No one seemed to really have a problem with it, and American Dsd86 said Go ahead and fix it up. And what was wrong? He said do the three episode Season 10. Stuff like the yellow to gray can be fixed easily. Don't know what the big deal is. Spongey253 (talk) 11:30, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Spongey253 and Koala15, you're BOTH right. Spongey253, you are right that the season numbering method to use is a legitimate concern given the number of editors that actually brought it up in this last discussion where it wasn't really topical, and Koala is also right that there first needs to be a focused discussion on that and consensus.

Also, my apologies Spongey253 I misunderstood you. I thought that you meant that you were just going to add those three episodes as being apart of season 10 as is understood by the one-season-extra method used here at Wikipedia. There have actually already been many past discussions here at Wikipedia as to which method to use between the one-season-extra and one-season-fewer method. Those very extended discussions closed with it being ultimately decided to use the one-season-extra while of course adding that there is a discrepancy in understanding the seasons.

So I feel that a discussion/wide consensus should first be done before we went through with such a huge move. We certainly could have that discussion as your concern is a legitimate one. I'm just warning you that it has a strong potential to be the same extended discussion as this last one. Hope this helps! AmericanDad86 (talk) 13:28, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

The question is will TBS continue to follow the FOX PR method of counting, or do they suddenly decide that their 11th season is now out of date and do go to 12? While it seems short-sighted to think no one thought there would be some "leftover" episodes as late as the beginning this year, as even the "other wiki" was talking about the possibility of the three-episode season in April[33] and I'm sure the network executives would be further along than that, announcing "Season 11" as far back as June of 2013 according to the press reports does seem a little far back for precognition. Still, my money is on them continuing to run with it. 108.226.144.192 (talk) 14:04, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

TVGuide is using are exact season counting. Koala15 (talk) 14:16, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Interesting points, IP and Koala. Cheers! AmericanDad86 (talk) 14:20, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Okay, now that the stuff I made is "cleared" up, shall we decide what to do. I recommend doing Season One with 23 episodes and the fewer episode season. Season 10 is the three episodes and its pretty easy. Thoughts? (Also, I think it would be a good idea to match our episode guide with the AD Wiki instead of everyone being confused and there is just ONE same episode guide.) Spongey253 (talk) 22:14, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

While sharing the same thought, following another wiki is NEVER a good reason. There are other valid points to be made for the case that rely on more professional output. 108.226.144.192 (talk) 00:44, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Kind of did say this "instead of everyone being confused and there is just ONE same episode guide" as another reason, but yeah following a wiki isn't a good main reason. But we all have to agree on what episode guide we should use. Still think my edits are good. Spongey253 (talk) 01:42, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

I will be very busy for the next week and unable to offer my input beyond this so I'm just going to give my say on your move idea, Spongey253. I don't think you understand the extent of the overhaul that you'd be getting into if you went through with this move.

Not only would you have to go and change the season articles in question as you were trying to do, but you'd have to read over every American Dad article here at Wikipedia (Roger article, Stan article, Haley article, Francine article, character group articles, each of the episode articles, episode group, etc., etc., etc., etc.) and make sure that all of the text in those entire articles corresponded accordingly with the move you've made. There are countless mentions of the seasons in those articles that would all have to match up accordingly. That is a lot of work and it would need to be done with great care.

Personally, I don't understand what the point of doing all that work would be. So long as we're noting that there's a discrepancy in understanding of seasons and it's clearly explained in the article, what difference does it make?! At the end of the day, there will always be a season discrepancy because the people in charge of the show didn't make things clear. My opinion is leave well enough alone and don't give these three upcoming episodes on Fox a season until more information comes out. Hope this helps! AmericanDad86 (talk) 02:34, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

My opinion is leave well enough alone and don't give these three upcoming episodes on Fox a season until more information comes out.

What? You were willing to accept FOXFlash as the smoking gun that would end this dispute when you didn't even read it and assumed it meant that the three episodes were part of season ten. Therefore, you should be willing to accept it as the smoking gun that proves my stance, otherwise you'll come of as extremely biased. - Wattlebird (talk) 07:54, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Makes sense. I'm sure more info will be out by next week because usually three weeks before an episode airs, photos and info comes out. Spongey253 (talk) 12:18, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

That's a valuable piece of info, Spongey. I'm glad you have informed of that 3 week notice. I think that will provide us with some clear direction. I'll be on the look out in any downtime I have in the next week. Otherwise I will trust that you and Koala15 will take the reigns on this discussion and edit accordingly. Try your best to ignore the child here too concerned with "winning" to care about the good of the article. Cheers! AmericanDad86 (talk) 14:18, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

So you're going to take the obviously biased approach here? - 118.93.25.10 (talk) 18:43, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Also, you seem to be holding out hope that when the promo art/additional info is released, that it will back up your claim. However, this information will be distributed through FOXFlash, which has already made it clear that it's a separate season by creating the section this information will go in when it's published. - Wattlebird (talk) 20:40, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

To make it clear to everyone why I'm accusing AmericanDad86 of being biased, it's relevant to this overall discussion because it's just extending the length of time the "issue" is open for no real reason...

When 108.226.144.192 first pointed out a "Season 10" existed on FOXFlash, AmericanDad86 completely disregarded it by saying:

This is all nice and well if you found a couple of other sources like your Fox Flash source or whatever

Only then when Spongey253 pointed out that FOXFlash considered the episodes as "Season 10" he completely changed his tune.

Oh, really Spongey253?! If Fox Flash is even stating it's apart of the 10th season, then this is a done deal.

Then once I pointed out that FOXFlash uses the one-less season numbering and that he'd actually just accidentally agreed with my stance on this issue, he went back to disregarding the source.

My opinion is leave well enough alone and don't give these three upcoming episodes on Fox a season until more information comes out.

How can we have an objective discussion to resolve this when the key person behind the "opposing stance" isn't being objective and is picking and choosing to what he feels is credible and what isn't - and when it suits him? If he could produce anything credible that backed up his stance, I would entertain it rather than completely ignoring it. But as he hasn't produced anything, I haven't had the opportunity to do so. And he's the one calling me a "child"... - Wattlebird (talk) 01:09, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

I guess so, but lets leave everything alone right now until more info is released.

The "Roger Passes the Bar" images have been released and they look good. Since its less than three weeks, we all need to agree on what to do with all the American Dad pages, I still think that we should go back and fix all the pages to the fewer-season number. Spongey253 (talk) 21:28, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Yip. Promo art was released, and has been labeled once again as season 10 (Using the one-less method) on FOXFlash[34]. Not the result AmericanDad86 was hoping for but it is what it is.

Also, the final nail in AmericanDad86's argument that I can't believe I just thought of. TBS use the "one-less" labeling method (as seen on their episode guide here[35]), so even though they did call it season 11 in the past, it would equate to season 12 here because we use the "one-more". BOOM.

With all this evidence that stacks up against an opinion, it's pretty clear this matter is settled (to any rational, unbiased person that is) and discussion regarding possibly changing season labeling methods can continue/begin in the new section below. - Wattlebird (talk) 00:53, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

References