Talk:Amtor

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General discussion of article problems[edit]

Whoever originally wrote this article is a retard, and should actually read the books. I found the following errors, corrected in my rewrite.

The portion depicted, largely confined to the southern hemisphere's temperate zone, is primarily oceanic,

  • This is never mentioned. Indeed, the map problem makes discerning the truth or falsehood of this statement almost impossible.

but includes two continents and a number of large islands. Vegetation tends to be gigantic.

  • False. It is sometimes gigantic.

The human natives possess a technology advanced in some respects and retarded in others; ocean-going vessels are nuclear-powered

  • Not all of them.

but communicate by flags, radio being unknown. Weaponry is at the pre-firearm stage,

  • False; they have atomic pistols.


In part, Amtor's spotty science may be owed to its inhabitants' cosmological view, which at least in the southern hemisphere where Napier lands is religiously-derived.

  • Complete rubbish. There is no religion on Venus. The closest word for "God" is "Loto-El-Ho-Ganja"; "Most High More Than Woman", who turns out to be someone mysteriously transported from Brooklyn.

Pirates of Venus includes a controversial passage which in the opinion of some expresses sympathy for the Ku Klux Klan. (See [1].)

  • I cannot see how the citation given expresses this opinion, which is in any case moronic.

Response[edit]

While your judgement is to say the least questionable, the points your raise deserve to be addressed.

The article as you found it was of course written by several people, myself included, none of whom appear to exhibit any signs of being "retards" or "morons" -- nor of the immaturity you display.

The southern temperate zone, which is where Amtorian maps would exhibit the least distortion, is indeed oceanic on the basis of Burroughs' map and various corrections available on the web. Burroughs' map was published in the original editions of the books, and is also available on the web.

Vegetation. "Tends to be" does not mean all of it is gigantic. You're knocking down a straw man.

Indeed, not all Amtorian vessels are nuclear-powered. But I doubt many people assumed the power system extended all the way down to rowboats!

Correct on the atomic pistols. Though to use your own standards, it would be more correct to say that "some" Amtorians have them. Obviously, not all do.

Religion on Venus. While it is true that no widespread religious system has been depicted, the geographical concept epitomizes religiously-based worldviews. Its primitive basis is plain, as is the fact that the "scientific" justification of it was shaped to support the worldview, rather than the worldview being modified in accord with observed reality.

The notion that Burroughs was in sympathy with the KKK is certainly dubious, but cannot be summarily dismissed. His allusion to the organization is not in dispute, merely the interpretation of it. A more reasonable view would be that it's another instance of his wry humor, but not everyone understands irony. Those who regard Burroughs as racist certainly don't. BPK 08:47, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Counter-riposte[edit]

On religion in Vepaja. There is none. Burroughs mentions this more than once, I believe. So I fail to see how this can epitomize anything religious. Additionally, I would hesitate to call anyone who can "multiply by the square root of minus one" and invent an anti-agathic as "primitive". This is a wry dig at science. The Amtorians come up with their erroneus cosmology because of an experimental vacuum, and hold to it in the face of evidence because of a sort of mental inertia (possibly ERB is also making a point about the deleterious consequences of immortality). Many scientists have been guilty of this at some time, and of invoking complex and dubious logics to defend an exploded hypothesis. Hoyle's Steady State theory (although post-dating Pirates of Venus) is a fairly good example, and Hoyle was undoubtedly one of the foremost astronomers of his day.

Since we are all agreed that the Burroughs-KKK link is somewhat foolish, since the opinion is expressed by a single internet reviewer, and since even his editor describes it as "erroneus", surely there is no need to repeat it? If Wikipedia repeated every opinion found on the internet, it would be sillier than it already is.

Regarding the map issue, if you mean the map reprinted here: [1], I draw your attention firstly to the caption and secondly to the map here [2], which (while being non-canon and thus not really evidence) does not support your contention that Amtor is mostly ocean.

As to vegetation, my memory is that it can only properly be called gigantic in one place; Vepaja. Hardly enough to establish a tendency.

(I am the same as the commentator at the top of this page, even though I have a different IP)


Re: the "KKK" connection.

As I recall, Napier forms a rebel group known as the "Soldiers of Liberty," but to maintain their cover, they only speak the initials of the organization. I don't recall if we're told the Amtorian word for "soldier," but we do know that in their universal language, plurals are formed by adding a prefix, either "kloo-" or "kl-" depending upon whether the root word begins with a consonant or a vowel. We do learn that the Amtorian for "of" is "kum." Therefore, "liberty" must either be a plural concept, or must begin with a "k" anyway. So, the group is named the "Kl(something) kum K(something else)," initials K-K-K! We're told that's spoken kung-kung-kung on Venus rather than kay-kay-kay, by the kay ... er, way.

Wait a minute, on this basis, wouldn't just about every Amtorian organization have at least two K's in their initials? Wouldn't the K-K-K get confused with the K-K-P and the K-K-S-K and all the others.? Hell of a way to carry on covert operations. Sounds like that Monty Python bit about the Judean People's Front versus the People's Front of Judea and the other splitters. ("What! You're from the kung-kung-kung! How dare you?" "No, I said kung-kung-bung!")

Ergo, it would be pretty stupid to use actual initials given a language that uses kl- before every plural noun.

Such a language ought to sound pretty awful, and to initiate choking in the speaker whenever a long passage is spoken, but never mind. If a language expert like Tolkein had pulled something like this, you might infer a sinister motivation, but Burroughs never let logic get in the way of entertainment, and this served him and his readers quite well.

Napier smiles in amusement when his organization is rendered as K-K-K. Given my explanation, he should have laughed out loud. That's hardly a political endorsement. Pursuing that track is S.O.L., and that ain't Soldiers of Liberty. WHPratt (talk) 05:46, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A rather late response on one point[edit]

The map links, canonical and non, both support the contention that the southern temperate zone is oceanic, which was all that was actually asserted. Note that it was never claimed that Amtor as a whole was oceanic; due to the inadequate mapping of the south polar and south equatorial regions and non-existent mapping of the northern hemisphere, no overall assessment on that point would even be possible. BPK (talk) 15:22, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comic adaptation of Venus book(s)[edit]

I am almost sure that I read a DC Comics adaptation of "Pirates of Venus" sometime in the mid or late 1970s. However, I don't see any mention of this in the articles about comic book adaptations of ERB's works: Tarzan (comics)#DC Comics and Weird Worlds (comics).

Can anyone verify or dispute this? — Lawrence King (talk) 04:37, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If I recall correctly, the Venus adaptations were carried in the Korak comic, and later in Tarzan Family, never appearing in the main Tarzan comic or in Weird Worlds. BPK (talk) 06:46, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It's mentioned briefly in the article on Michael William Kaluta (the artist). WHPratt (talk) 12:29, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Requested move 22 April 2014[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Ixfd64 (talk) 17:24, 2 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Venus series → Amtor – match the Barsoom article which is not called "Martian series", it'd be much clearer what this was about, since "Venus series" is generic. Indeed, several authors have their own Venus series. Further, as this is a descriptive name and not a prescriptive name, it should have been Burroughs' Venus series per WP:PRECISE. The prescriptive name is Amtor, being the fictional location. So, I think this should be called "Amtor" preferentially, or failing that, "Burroughs' Venus series" --Relisted. walk victor falk talk 13:53, 19 May 2014 (UTC) Relisted 70.24.250.192 (talk) 23:21, 22 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Survey[edit]

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
  • Support Amtor. Wp:ndesc titles are for when for one reason or another (like wp:npov) wp:commonname titles are unsuitable. The article about the city of light is located at Paris, not Capital of France. Redirects for "Burrough's/Mars/Venus/stories/series" should be created. ("capital of France" redirects to list of capitals of France) walk victor falk talk 13:53, 19 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Amtor. On the grounds that Burrough's Martian series is under Barsoom, and his inner world series under Pellucidar. But don't feel very strongly one way or the other. I should note that among Burroughs fans it's generally referred to as the Venus series, not the Amtor series. BPK (talk) 16:40, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Amtor. An additional reason: in the 1930s, Burroughs' version was valid speculation as to what conditions on Venus might actually be. As the years (and decades) roll by and astronomical research makes this less and less likely (eventually impossible), it becomes more and more of a fantasy world and might as well have its own name. No modern reader is going here with any expectations of learning anothing about the actual planet. I'd argue similarly for Barsoon, Pellucidar and so on, with suitable redirects. WHPratt (talk) 18:28, 30 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion[edit]

Any additional comments:

Relisting. The only argument yet given for the move in terms of WP:AT is the claim that the current title fails WP:PRECISE, which appears to me to be false. Yet neither is there any opposition. Andrewa (talk) 15:55, 30 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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