Talk:Anagarika Govinda

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was not moved. --BDD (talk) 22:23, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Anagarika Govinda → Lama Anagarika Govinda – Lama Govinda or Lama Anagarika Govinda is the common name by far, see the case for Mother Theresa (which also uses not her birthname as the article title). This is one of many cases where Yworo (talk · contribs) changed common name titles of Hindu or Buddhist persons to much less common ones. We should also move Mother Theresa to Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu if the same is done to Buddhists and Hindus. Trphierth (talk) 17:36, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Apart from his own books, also third party sources use the name Lama Govinda. This includes the titles of biographies on him like Ken Winkler, 1000 Journeys: The Biography of Lama Anagarika Govinda, or The Lost Teachings of Lama Govinda: Living Wisdom from a Modern Tibetan Master.--Trphierth (talk) 18:27, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

• Comment - what are the other third party sources? The article itself seems to have barely any reliable sources, so it is difficult to see what your evidence is to support a move. Green Giant (talk) 01:00, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

I have mentioned two book titles which use Lama Govinda, but there are many others, as you can easily find out at Google books. Other examples are

• Dancing in the Dharma: The Life and Teachings of Ruth Denison edited by Sandy Boucher
• Wind Bell: Teachings from the San Francisco Zen Center - 1968-2001 edited by Michael Wenger
• The Lost Teachings of Lama Govinda: Living Wisdom from a Modern Tibetan Master By Anagarika Brahmacari Govinda
• A Thousand Journeys:The Biography of Lama Anagarika Govinda
• Lama Govindas own books like The Way of the White Clouds
• Prisoners of Shangri-La: Tibetan Buddhism and the West

Can you name any significant examples where his name without the prefix Lama is used?--Trphierth (talk) 21:45, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

• Probably oppose - WP:HONORIFIC; there are not many third party sources, but third party secular sources such as Harry Oldmeadow Journeys East: 20th century Western encounters with Eastern Religious Traditions 2010 Page 280 has of Dennis Lingwood that "He came under the influence of Anagarika Govinda and was also closely involved in the “Buddhist Untouchables” movement in India, associated with Dr Ambedkar and directed towards the mass conversion of Hindu out-castes." [incidentally "Mother Theresa" as has been said before is not official name or a true honorific, more a popular nickname in Bengal. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:15, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose, WP:HONORIFIC. We should be taking "Lama" and "Rinpoche" off the titles of many articles, not adding them. Yworo (talk) 05:59, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment: WP:HONORIFIC is a guideline, not policy, and the Indic section is just an essay. There are also hundreds of examples in other religions like Christianity or Islam where a honorific like Syed is used.--Trphierth (talk) 21:47, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose for several reasons:

• • Honorifics do not always have to be used, e.g. Barack Obama to which President Barack Obama redirects, even though it is quite common to refer to him with and without "President".
  • Article titles need to be based on guidelines like WP:Article titles, which states that article titles need to be recognisable to uninformed readers, natural to search for and link from other articles, precise and concise enough to identify and distinguish the subject from other subjects, and consistent with titles of similar articles. Bearing in mind that "Anagarika" is also a sort of honorific and leaving aside two other minor redirects (Anagarika Brahmacari Govinda and Lama Govinda):

• • • "Lama Anagarika Govinda" is recognisable and natural but it is not precise and concise,
    • "Anagarika Govinda" is recognisable, natural, precise and concise,
    • Looking through Category:20th-century Lamas (where I would have expected this article to be categorised), it is clear that article guidelines have not always been followed in naming these similar articles and thus it is impossible to state whether the current and proposed titles are fully consistent with similar articles.

• • Therefore we have to look at how often these two names were searched for, and one crude method is pageview statistics, linked from the history of every article. "Lama Anagarika Govinda" was viewed 967 times in the last 90 days whereas "Anagarika Govinda" was viewed 3057 times in the last 90 days. Allowing for 967 of those 3057 views as having come from the proposed title, it can be seen that the current title was still viewed a lot more. Green Giant (talk) 00:22, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

It seems that you are running out of arguments when you have to start quoting pageview statistics, out of all things! You didn't reply to my reply above, so I assume you agree that his name with Lama is more common.

The article could also be moved to Lama Govinda, which is a bit more "concise" than Lama Anagarika Govinda. Lama Govinda seems a bit more common than Lama Anagarika Govinda (and way more common than Anagarika Govinda without the "Lama").

I do not understand your first point. Your argument is that "Honorifics do not always have to be used"? --Trphierth (talk) 22:00, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.