Talk:Ancient Olympic Games/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Heraea/Pelops & References

I've added a ref section to help us keep this article accurate. I noticed that someone removed the Heraea information and have re-added them, along with citations. --Deebki 10:20, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

919 BC?

The first written accounts of the Olympic Games date from 776 BC, although it is sure that these Games were not the first ones to be held. The Olympic Games were held in four year intervals, and later the Greek method of counting the years even referred to these Games, using the term Olympiad for the period between two Games. The Greeks in historical times used the Olympiads to count years, much as we today use AD and BC. Thus, by that chronology, the first Olympiad would have taken place in 919 BC.

How is it possible for 776 BC to become 919 BC? unsigned...

When you're looking BC, the lower the number, the closer it is AD. Basically, it starts at a high number, and works down as the years go by. 68.218.205.26 18:29, 11 April 2007 (UTC)unsigned

Olympic truce

I've created a section on the olympic truce, and will be working on this article over the next few days. Ironholds 15:19, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Music

Music's role in the Ancient Olympic Games should be mentioned in the article. Badagnani (talk) 05:41, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Do you know anything about it? I've been planning on expanding the article, maybe getting it up to GA, but it keeps getting pushed back by other projects. Ironholds 10:40, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
whos the author? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.192.40.18 (talk) 02:33, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Music and poetry were inseparable, and having an ode written for victors, particularly of the chariot race, was one of the percs and a guaranty of fame; I added Pindar to the See alsos but his role in celebrating Olympic victors and also those at other Games should be mentioned here; the linkage between odes and sports is a major one; the religious nature of the Games themselves also doesn't receive enough attention here, so far, but in the case of poetry (in essence a religious observance) is to be mentioned in teh same breath as music, i.e. the odes were all sung, professional choristers and dancers were on hand....Skookum1 (talk) 00:04, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Athletic nudity and coaches (and women)

The Greek tradition of athletic nudity was first introduced in 720 BC (before christ), either by the Spartans or by the Megarian Orsippus and this was adopted early in the Olympics as well, some relate that it occurred after a woman won a race while dressed in male attire.

I'm not sure in what year, but it was extended to coaches as well as athletes at some point because a female coach had been revealed during the climbing of a wall somewhere on the grounds, causing an outrage (women were not allowed in the sanctuary, at all - which made the opening torch-lighting of the modern Athenian games, with "priestesses of Zeus" entirely anachronistic and not a bit impious according to the ancient beliefs....they were not likely even, gasp, virgins, but to my knowledge there were no priestesses of Zeus, only priests, and no women were allowed on the left bank of the Alpheus....never mind in the stadium itself!!Skookum1 (talk) 00:04, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Olimpiade Pertama di Yunani Kuno

Olimpiade pertama diadakan di Yunani, tepatnya di sebuah desa bernama Olimpia. Olimpiade pertama tercatat di mulai pada 776 BC. Olimpiade pada awalnya diadakan dengan tujuan religius, yaitu memperingati seorang dewa yang bernama Zeus. Zeus adalah dewa dari dewa-dewa di Yunani kuno. Olimpiade diadakan 5 hari lamanya dalam jangka waktu 4 tahun. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 154.20.131.216 (talk) 22:06, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Poetic prizes underwritten

The point of the artistic prizes - statuary and poetry - was to assure immortality for the victor; that's not so much my point but in reference to this phrase:

poets would sing odes in their praise for money.

This really seems undewritten. While it's true poets wrote these for money, their fees were put up by prize-sponsors, not paid for by the athletes in a "will you write a poem for me?" kind of way. And these were sung choral odes, similar to the plays of the theatre but not staged; it wasn't like a guy with a lute going "Ephridates, you're so cool, I know you when you were a kid in school" kind of ditties. Some of the Olympic odes are among the greatest poetry ever written, and it was a big deal for a poet to get such a commission; not just any rhymester would do. All of which leads me to the name Pindar, who perhaps never since has been excelled in the writing of poetry/songs describing sporting occasions/victories; I don't read ancient Greek well enough to appreciate the finer points of Greek verse, but his reputation has it that the verse was exaltatory and near-poetic-perfection, some say exceeded only by Homer, maybe by Euripides.....all this doesn't have to be in the article, but the "cultural prizes" section coudl use some bolstering by the mention of the "big names" in the arts who patronized the Games with some of their best output; can't speak to sculpture, other than to opine that the Great Statue of Zeus was considered Phidias' finest work and that his workshop's foundation still stands, near the ruins of the Great Temple and while I have no idea for who sat as the model for it, somewhere I read it's assumed that the statuary on the temple-frieze and trapezus, and on its predecessor's, were "sat for" by specific Olympic victors, though I don't recall any names, or if any were named, out of deference to the gods portrayed; it wouldnot be "on" for somebody to say "that's me as Apollo up there" or "hey, I got to be Hercules on Zeus' temple....". Hopefully one of the classicists on this page can enrich that paragraph with some details and give the poetic odes written for victors the weight they deserve....Skookum1 (talk) 01:00, 26 March 2009 (UTC) Again, I believe people are confusing accalades with prizes.

Semi-Protection

I have requested that this page be semi-protected at WP:RFP. I have been watching this page for some time and I am amazed at the number of reverts for vandalism. It is nearly a daily occurance and all of the vandalism is coming from IP addresses. This was happening on the Olympic Games article until it was semi-protected. Then the vandalism ceased. I feel this is a good article to be protected. I'll be willing to hear dissenting opinions though. H1nkles (talk) 15:01, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Good idea. I've protected it. Adam Bishop (talk) 16:33, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Plagiarism claims

SOME ONE PLAYDURISEDD THIS SITE. go on google ancient olympics and the first link. click the top right button read then come to this and read last few lined of first paragraphs —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.81.108.213 (talk) 00:15, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

SOME ONE PLAYDURISEDD THIS SITE. go on google ancient olympics and the first link. click the top right button read then come to this and read last few lined of first paragraphs —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.81.108.213 (talk) 00:15, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Infobox removed

The inforbox is inappropriate for this article. As "at a glance" information, it is supposed to be information.....FROM THIS ARTICLE!--Amadscientist (talk) 05:53, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Invisible text in body of article

It is not to be insulting or hurt any editors feelings. I am hoping to return in the next few days to deal with this myself and these are reminders to me if no others are able or willing to deal with the slight problems mentioned. I wanted to do more but limited myself to only a few things at the start of the article.

My recent research has, and memory from school tells me there is something missing from the section about other Greek Games and I noticed a couple of inconsistencies that may simply be copy edit problems.--Amadscientist (talk) 06:02, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Events

"It seems that only young people were allowed to participate..."

Many athletes had long Olympic careers, perhaps foremost among them Milo. His participation from 540 to 516 BC contradicts the article's uncited assertion. Atcack (talk) 17:09, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

This whole section is problematic. Needs drastic changes. Whoever tries, please take under consideration that the customs on who took part or who viewed the Games probably changed during the ages.--FocalPoint (talk) 17:24, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Cheaters

There is a rumor that there were some statues raised for cheaters, is that true ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.88.128.149 (talk) 09:01, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Why is the 1894 revival the default direction for "Olympic Games"?

The Coca-Cola festival of sport has stolen the name, but an encyclopedia should give at least equal weight to the original olympic games, as it does to the modern sponsor- fest. 93.96.148.42 (talk) 06:13, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

{{editsemiprotected}}

 Not done: 1) No request is made and 2) requester is autoconfirmed and can make the edits him/herself. Intelligentsium 03:02, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

mt olympus

The article seems to suggest that Mt Olympus is at Olympia. As far as I'm aware it's in central Greece. 92.25.84.161 (talk) 09:24, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

The article is currently in progress, I wish there was a way to put an "under construction" sign up. If you have a reference that supports this then please make the changes, I would appreciate it. I'm not well versed on Greek geography so if there's something that's incorrect I'll be the first to admit the error was probably mine. H1nkles (talk) 16:00, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
This article wrongly states that Mt. Olympus was the site of the ancient games. This is not true. The games were held at Olympia in the Peloponnese (southern Greece) as opposed to Mt. Olympus which is in central Greece. The name is similar, true, but in reality these are totally different places in Greece and are in fact several hours apart. These links to the IOC website and Goggle maps back up this information. The Google maps link gives driving directions between Mt. Olympus and Olympia the site of the games.
Imnieve (talk) 04:54, 1 March 2010 (UTC)cb
I agree, 'Mt. Olympus' should be changed to 'Olympia' in the article. The claim that the Ancient Games were held next to Mt. Olympus (and not Olympia) is wrong. Also, the article should link to Olympia.
Adam Jasinski (talk) 14:30, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

mt olympus - edit request

{{editsemiprotected}}

Please change "Mount Olympus" to "Olympia"
Please change "Mt. Olympus" to "Olympia"
Please change "Olympus" to "Olympia"
Rationale: see above "Mt Olympus" section on the talk page
Adam Jasinski (talk) 14:44, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Sorry to be a bit dense here, but I'm not sure which to change. There are about 11 places where it says, "Olympus" - should they all change? Does the reference cover all changes? What about the volcano? Please could you clarify; again, apologies.  Chzz  ►  15:07, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Basically all references to 'Mount Olympus' or 'Olympus' are wrong, and they all should be replaced by 'Olympia' (The article about Olympia already mentions Olympic Games, sanctuary, temple of Zeus, etc.).
Thus said, there is one exception where reference to 'Mount Olympus' is correct (which I've just spotted):

The other Olympian gods (so named because they lived permanently on Mount Olympus), would also engage in wrestling, jumping and running contests.

This particular sentence can be left as it is.
There are no references to a volcano in the article; did you mean earthquake? The article about Olympia already mentions a series of earthquakes, so in this respect Ancient Olympic Games article will be consistent with Olympia article after the change.
Adam Jasinski (talk) 16:27, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
I've made the fixes please advise if this is acceptable. User:H1nkles citius altius fortius 16:56, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Yes, they look good, many thanks! Adam Jasinski (talk) 17:07, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Remove the hyperlink associated with Chionis in the Politics section

The hyperlink that is tied to the Chionis reference in the Politics section is completely misleading, as it leads to an article about the sheathbill family of birds in the Antarctic (genus Chionis). The linked article has nothing to do with the Ancient Olympic athlete mentioned in this article, and the hyperlink should thus be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tbcarey (talk • contribs) 20:33, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Done. H1nkles citius altius fortius 20:50, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Bilistiche

Why is it a question why Bilistiche won the horse races, the owner was named winner, she would have owned the horses that won. 4/5/10 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.96.94.8 (talk) 11:06, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

still being worked on?

I wonder why the section "Politics" takes precedence over such fundamental information as "Events" and who participated (wrongly placed in the first two paragraphs of "Events" and largely repeating info in the lead section). For scholars, this may be a preoccupation, but it does disservice to the topic, because it interferes with providing a neutral description of what these events were. There's no image at the top, despite the availability of attractive Olympics-related images, and it's written, frankly, as if by people somewhat hostile toward athletics and more interested in issues of power and politics. There is not even one sentence in the lead section offering a brief overview of what sports, or what kinds of sports, were featured.

I'm a staunch advocate of writing for the majority of readers who will be coming to a given article. This is the kind of general-interest topic many school-age children might look up; articles on more specialized topics (in my opinion) can be written in a way that reflects the likelihood that anyone looking it up will already have a knowledge basis. The lead section shouldn't bludgeon the reader with the "correct" way of how to view the ancient Olympics. It should provide the basic descriptive information that the most likely reader would be seeking. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:56, 12 July 2010 (UTC)


Ramses II's international stick fighting and wrestling competition

Hi all. I’m just wondering if it would be interesting to mention that during Pharaoh Ramses III’s reign in Egypt (c. 1186-1155 BC) there were apparently held an international wrestling and stick-fighting competition. Although there is no direct link with the Olympic Games, this event is a precursor to other international sports competition in history. Here’s a source link: http://books.google.no/books?id=KKlSSRq-P2QC&pg=PA9&lpg=PA9&dq=ramses+stick-fighting&source=bl&ots=wZTKeuxKgj&sig=18FD5UKGKDmyCNBPx0pTNdU_HgM&hl=no&ei=NmKbTbGqNNGgOtDwnf4G&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=ramses%20stick-fighting&f=false

And here’s an image: http://www.featurepics.com/online/Ancient-Egyptian-Karate-1447050.aspx

Do with this as you please :-) Vithar Alderland (talk) 19:03, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Olympics

I think, as a student, it's hard to read with all the blue letters and pronounceations. So I think it would be nice for a little less of all THAT.
-NAME AND ADDRESS WITH ELM. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.26.69.30 (talk) 16:13, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

What did winners receive

i dont know what they got when they won the gamesCrazyhors 00:55, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

A laural wreath.--Amadscientist (talk) 05:39, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
In response to the person who asked about what the winners received ==
The Wikipedia articles on 'Olive Wreath', 'Gold Medal' and 'Laurel Wreath' all state that the winners received an olive wreath (as does this comment below). However, the text of this article says it is a laurel wreath. Is anyone able to clarify? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.42.199.2 (talk) 21:37, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
The winners of the Games got a olive branch crown. However, in their home city-state, they could recieve either parades,or even free meals for a year. One of the greatest honor, however, was if a famous poet wrote about them.
Master DaVinci
3/15/2008
17:33 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Master DaVinci (talk • contribs) 17:35, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Actualy they official prize was only the laurel wreath, which was not actualy worn as a crown (that was a Roman invention I believe for emperors) What you are refering to are accalades recieved in honor of the victory. In appreciaqtion, for the honor bestowed apon the home town an winning athlete may not have to pay for almost anything for nearly his entire life. A victorious Olumpian died with honors decades after his win and was honored they same way in death as in life, or more appropriatly held in as high an honor while memory persisted.--Amadscientist (talk) 05:43, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Kotynski/Dating

The article as written states that Diodorus has the eclipse coming in the 3rd year of the 113th Olympiad, and that this dates the 1st Olympiad to 765BC, the eclipse having been in 316BC. Kotynski's article, which is cited as authority, says (page 3 and note 6 in the new link cited in the reference section): (1) that the eclipse was in 310BC; (2) that Diodorus places it in the 3rd year of the 117th Olympiad, and (3) that this dates the 1st Olympics to (the more traditional date of) 776BC. Is there a reason for this that I am missing? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.148.164.65 (talk) 15:16, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Weak article

Suggest this entire article might be in need of a full re-write. Ordering and content seems confused and conflicting with opinions offered without context.

Three points to start off with: a) Section:'Origins' talks only of myths, some of these may be based on historical truth e.g revival of the Games in 776 by Lycurgus of Sparta. In a Greek context there is a significant difference between 'mythology' and debatable/questionable 'history' b) Section:'History' then deals with the origins of the Games referring to the use of foot races for young women - this is actually in reference to the Herean Games which were not part of the Olympc Games (as is stated in the next paragraph) as occurred in the sixth century after the Olympic Games are though to have originated. c) Section:'Event' refers to pankration as a root of MMA. Apart from trying to tie MMA, which started in the past 100 years to a sport that died out 2000 years ago, this is a non-sequitor and has no relevance to an article on the Ancient Olympic Games.

Hope this helps and prompts a review by moderators — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.130.234.15 (talk) 10:21, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

  • Maybe.
And I suggest, in the light of these days' commercialisation of the modern Games, feasible adding of the section on the Games' economics: who organised, what means of supply were, etc. If any sources achievable, I mean... Lincoln Josh (talk) 09:08, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Cynisca

The article states that she won (or at least participated in "running: stadion, diaulos, long and triple jump" but this is impossible. Women were only permitted to own and train horses for the Chariot Racing, which is what she won, the 4 horse chariot race. I'm not a member, so I figured I'd bring it to y'all's attention. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.138.99.118 (talk) 22:52, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Fixed, thanks.

Expansion of Origins and Festivals in other places sections

The "Origins" and "Festivals in other places" sections of this page show an extreme Hellenic bias and are composed almost entirely of Greek Mythology with only a sentence devoted to the funeral games or sporting festivals elsewhere that may have had influence, comparison and even inspiration for the Greek games. There is plenty of material out there providing a much more in depth and detailed analysis with many notable theories of origins being discussed by scholars, historians and archaeologists. I have copied below sources used in a discussion (now misplaced) on the Modern Olympic Games page, which mainly relate to the connection with the Tailteann Games in Ireland, although some of the sources, including essays in the Olympic Review which give a more global perspective on other sporting events in other countries that may pre-date, influence or started around the same time as the Olympics and comparison between them. I suggest both the Origins and Festivals in other places sections, and the funeral games page itself needs some work with these sources so am putting them out there for anyone who wants to assist or comment on this suggestion. I made a start at the paragraph below, which is now partially deleted by an editor who has yet to give a valid reason.

Athletics and games such as wrestling have been found depicted on Sumerian statues dating to 2600 BC,David Chiu (1 August 2004). Wrestling: Rules, Tips, Strategy, and Safety. The Rosen Publishing Group. pp. 5–. ISBN 978-1-4042-0187-3. Retrieved 17 August 2012. with the origins of many aspects of the Olympics dating to funeral games of the Mycenean period and later.Wendy J. Raschke (15 June 1988). Archaeology Of The Olympics: The Olympics & Other Festivals In Antiquity. Univ of Wisconsin Press. pp. 22–. ISBN 978-0-299-11334-6. Retrieved 12 August 2012. Early examples are known such as those held for Patroclus by Achilles, described by Homer and in Book 5 of Virgil's Aeneid, in which Aeneas organizes athletic contests on the anniversary of his father's death. Similar funeral games were held in Ireland called Aonachs, the most notable of which was the Aonach Tailteann founded, according to modern folklore based on John O'Donovan's translation of the Annals of the Four Masters by Lugh Lámhfhada as far back as 1829 BC at earthworks near the Hill of Tara.William H. Freeman (21 January 2011). Physical Education, Exercise and Sport Science in a Changing Society. Jones & Bartlett Publishers. pp. 80–. ISBN 978-0-7637-8157-6. Retrieved 12 August 2012.O’Donovan, John (ed. and tr.). Annála Rioghachta Eireann. Annals of the Kingdom of Ireland by the Four Masters, from the earliest period to the year 1616. Edited from MSS in the Library of the Royal Irish Academy and of Trinity College Dublin with a translation and copious notes. 7 volumes Royal Irish Academy. Dublin, 1849. First edition, 1849.
The Freeman sources says "This funerary origin was not rare in ancient times; the great Irish festival, Aonach Tailteann, may be older than the Olympic Games. Indeed, the Irish claim that it was the inspiration for the Greek games." The Encyclopedia Americana says (in the context of describing the history of sporting events) "Ireland has records of the Lughnasa or Tailteann Games as long ago as 1829 BC. Homer wrote of a clove foot race in the Illiad which probably took place before the 11th century BC. The Greeks originated the Olympic Games in 776BC" and "Legend tells of throwing the hammer in the Tailteann Games about 1829 BC". George B. Kirsch; Othello Harris; Claire Elaine Nolte (30 April 2000). Encyclopedia of Ethnicity and Sports in the United States. Greenwood Publishing Group. pp. 238–. ISBN 978-0-313-29911-7. Retrieved 18 August 2012. rehashes the hammer origins fact. I can happily go off and find more sources, but will you read any of them? I'll start quoting them to help. For instance, the Encyclopedia Britannica connects it with the origin of the pentathalon saying "As far back as 1829 BC, the roth clear, or wheel feat. was a major test of the Tailteann games. It was also one of the features of the Pentathlon when it was introduced at the ancient Olympic games". The Golden Bough James George Frazer (26 April 2012). The Golden Bough. Cambridge University Press. pp. 8–. ISBN 978-1-108-04733-3. Retrieved 18 August 2012. devotes an entire chapter to a discussion about the comparison with Sir James Frazer giving (in one of the most important early texts in the field of anthropology a nice discussion and comparison about how the origins of both Irish fairs and the Olympics were both the same, created by people trying to cash in on the large numbers of people attending someone's funeral "This theory might account for the origin not only of the Olympic and other Greek games, but also for that of the great fairs or public assemblies of ancient Ireland which have been compared, not without reason, to the Greek games" he also mentions their differences "Whatever may be thought of these speculations, the great The Olympic festival cannot have been, like our Lammas, a harvest festival". Another interesting sources was published by J. Goulstone in the Olympic Review of 1980 [1], which does suggest orgins of the Olympics in the North Sea, but not specifically Ireland. As a sidenote, this source is so good, he's spotted a theory about an ancient stadium in Amrit, Lebanon which in my opinion is a more likely and more obvious link that probably also deserves a mention and more research. This source pulls from that info to suggest Viking origins Steve Craig (2002). Sports and Games of the Ancients. Greenwood Publishing Group. pp. 80–. ISBN 978-0-313-31600-5. Retrieved 18 August 2012. and goes on to mention Boutros 1977 article and several others in the Olympic Review suggesting Phonecian origins. If you want another one (that quotes two more) connecting the two, try Matt Rogan; Martin Rogan (1 March 2011). Britain and the Olympic Games: Past, Present, Legacy. Troubador Publishing Ltd. pp. 4–. ISBN 978-1-84876-575-7. Retrieved 18 August 2012. on for size, where it says "Sporting festivals, too, come to the fore very early in our journey. Both Tim Harris in "Sport" and Melvyn Watman in "The History of British Athletics" identify the most ancient of these to have been the Tailteann Games, which are believed to have been started in 632 BC, although some put its origins as far back as 1829 BC. These were effectively an Olympic Games of the age, staged in County Meath in Ireland." Here's another pretty good source, not that modern, but not too old Gerald Redmond (June 1971). The Caledonian games in nineteenth-century America. Fairleigh Dickinson University Press. ISBN 978-0-8386-7820-6. Retrieved 18 August 2012. saying "The Tailtin or Tailteann Games also preceded the Olympic Games" and lets not forget Tim Delaney; Tim Madigan (30 April 2009). The Sociology of Sports: An Introduction. McFarland. pp. 42–. ISBN 978-0-7864-4169-3. Retrieved 18 August 2012. which says "Some scholars trace religious games to the great Irish funeral festival, Aonach Tailteann, which may be older than the Olympics games", which is not a bad source either but is using Freeman. The Canadian Association for Health, Physical Education and Recreation (1978). Revue de l'Association canadienne pour la santé, l'éducation physique et la récréation. Canadian Association for Health, Physical Education and Recreation. Retrieved 18 August 2012. says "A connection between the first Olympic Games and the Tailteann Games seems possible". The North American Society for Sport History (1973). Proceedings. Retrieved 18 August 2012. says "The funeral games of Tailtiu that evolved into the Tailteann Fair are reputed to be the oldest organized games of history". I gotta love this one too Clair Wills (2007). That Neutral Island: A Cultural History of Ireland During the Second World War. Harvard University Press. pp. 100–. ISBN 978-0-674-02682-7. Retrieved 18 August 2012. saying "The story went that the Aonach Tailteann were celebrated in Ireland more than a thousand years before Rome was founded, and that the Olympic Games were a mere shadow of Ireland's sporting contests." and that's Harvard University Press saying that, so sorry, but the horse isn't dead, it's very much alive and kicking, and could probably go on quoting good sources all night. Even in less suitable sources that merely stand to show the prevalence of this information in modern literature [2] Peggy Stanaland of Eastern Kentucky University (1977) rehashes T.H. Nally, dating them to 1500 BC in "The Tailteann Games of Ancient Ireland: Their Origin, Growth and Continuity through the Centuries of Unwritten History"Natalie Marie Shepard (1960). Foundations and principles of physical education. Ronald Press Co. Retrieved 18 August 2012. saying "The most ancient such spectacle and sports festival recorded is the Tailteann games or Lugnasad, established more than 3000 years ago in Ireland". Andrew Cooper (20 April 1998). Playing in the zone: exploring the spiritual dimensions of sports. Shambhala. ISBN 978-1-57062-151-2. Retrieved 18 August 2012. says "We know that as early as 1800 b.c.e., Celtic tribes in Ireland regularly held competitive games honoring fallen warriors that predate the first recorded Olympic games, held in 776 BCE". Christopher Winn (31 March 2012). I Never Knew That About Ireland. Ebury Publishing. pp. 113–. ISBN 978-1-4481-4607-9. Retrieved 18 August 2012. says "the Games, a sort of Irish Olympics, predate the Greek Olympics". Paul Bedson ❉talk❉ 09:42, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

1911 Brittanica

There is significant material in their Classical games article that is in the public domain and may be of use for this article. I'm not really qualified to judge the material, but I've redirected that title here for the Wikipedia:1911 Encyclopedia topics project, so let me know if you think there was a better place. Thanks - Taxman Talk 17:58, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Public Domain? Are you saying that you want to copy the information line by line? That is against wikipedia policy I believe. All information is public domain in that you can write about any idea, theory or suggestion made in any publication without a copyright. Images are different. However regardless of the public domain status of text, you would be doing this site a diservice to copy information directly from any source.--Amadscientist (talk) 06:07, 17 June 2009 (UTC)


WHO CARES!!!!! THIS IS JUST A WASTE OF TIME — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.15.31.117 (talk) 18:41, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Prose does not read well

There are some problems with the prose. We need some copy editing on the lede. I will endeavor to do suchj, but will refrain untill proper academic sources are collected. It is a shame to use Internet encyclopedias as a reference for an online encyclopdia, especialy since the subject has been documented in university studies for hundreds of years.--Amadscientist (talk) 05:53, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Some problems? Man, is that an understatement. This entry is riddled with grammatical errors and clunky syntax.74.134.160.246 (talk) 02:43, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Why did the games end in 394?

There seems to be some inconsistency in this article. The first paragraph states that, "They were celebrated until 393 AD. when an earthquake destroyed Olympia", while the last paragraph of the History section states that, "Finally, the Olympic Games were suppressed, either by Theodosius I in AD 393 or his grandson Theodosius II in AD 435, as part of the campaign to impose Christianity as a state religion. The site of Olympia remained until an earthquake destroyed it in the sixth century AD." The article on Olympia, Greece states that Theodosius I put an end to the games in 394. Lily20 (talk) 22:11, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

What is the source for Theodosius having suppressed the games? According to Norman Davies' Europe: A History "There is no evidence that the Emperor Theodosius I formally banned the festival. More probably, since Christian opinion had turned against pagan cults of all sorts, it was impossible to revive it after the Visigoths’ invasion of Greece in 395." Unless someone has a more reliable source suggesting that Theodosius did end them, I would have this claim removed. Jack G Hughes (talk) 21:58, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Ancient Olympic Games/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

*Close to GA. Maybe a few more citations, and a more careful run-through of the prose would do it. └Jared┘┌talk┐  14:12, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 14:12, 18 March 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 07:42, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Request for semi-protection

There has been a lot of vandalism recently by IP users. I requested for the article to be semi-protected for some time here WP:RFP. Greek Macedon (talk) 09:56, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Bilistiche, six years later

Someone flagged this above six years ago but it's still in the lead: it is well understood that Bilistiche did not compete. She sponsored/funded a winning team. I don't have a source to hand but it won't be hard to find an explanation in any book covering the ancient Olympics. She is well worth a mention but not in the lead text as a definite winner, which gives an entirely misleading impression to contemporary readers. 109.145.83.5 (talk) 15:55, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Vandalism

{{editsemiprotected}} This page seems to be a favorite target of vandals -- I suspect schoolkids.Robomanx (talk) 21:30, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

What exactly needs to be edited?  fetchcomms☛ 21:47, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
If you wish to have this page protected, you should request that at WP:RPP. I'm not sure exactly what you need changed, and you are autoconfirmed anyhow.  fetchcomms☛ 21:50, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
He is talking about this talk page itself. Seems to have remaining vandalism. I changed the names of the titles and struck out obvious false instructions for this page. פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 09:35, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Removed remarks

Ancient Olympic Games
This is a discussion page where you can come and discuss the ancient olympics games in greece.
Have fun.
Here is the link to the Ancient Olympics page.
  • Not. This is not a discussion page where you can come and discuss the ancient olympics games in Greece. This discussion page is for improving the article itself. Colonel Marksman 01:43, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
Messages
I find the ancient olympics very interesting. This is a very good page. I will post more, as i don't have much more to say at the moment. ~ Ashley

Vegetation Magic

What is this?

the games were thought to derive from some kind of vegetation magic

Drugs? MBG02 (talk) 20:50, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

"Ancient game" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Ancient game. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 May 15#Ancient game until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. TheAwesomeHwyh 20:29, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Archery

(Similar to previous item) No archery?? MBG02 (talk) 20:47, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

No. — LlywelynII 21:15, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Marathon ?

Was there any long run in ancient times? פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 09:35, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Well, there was at least one important Marathon but it had nothing to do with the Olympics. — LlywelynII 21:16, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

List of ancient Olympics

There really should be a yearly overview of the ancient Olympic Games of some kind. Modern Olympics are well chronicled on Wikipedia, but there's almost no information on the ancient Games. Here is some good information to build off. Jmj713 (talk) 15:47, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

The actual discussion of what we know about the competitions is somewhat hidden at List of ancient Olympic victors. — LlywelynII 21:17, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Addition of completely irrelevant material

This material [3] is completely irrelevant to the article, therefore I have removed it. Bronze age stadia in Ireland and Syria? So what? What does this have to do with the ancient Olympic Games? Where Olympics ever staged there? This article is about the ancient Olympics held in Olympia, not Random hypothetical sporting events in the ancient world. The sources used, unsurprisingly, are also of low quality. The Telltown Impact Assessment Report is not an appropriate source for such a claim, and neither is amateur archeology conducted by the sports director of the American University of Beirut. Athenean (talk) 16:28, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Why not? The article has a section for "Festivals in other places". The articles are both of exceptionally high quality. The Telltown report is in depth, scholarly and up to date, as is the article in the Olympic review. Please explain yourself. Paul Bedson ❉talk❉ 16:46, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
Festivals in other places refers to Olympic festivals in other places, in case that wasn't plainly obvious. Not hypothetical, non-Olympic sporting events anywhere in the world. This is ridiculous. Sporting events have been held all over the world in all kinds of places. Shall we include all of those too? Athenean (talk) 16:53, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
Sure, let me know if you find any other sporting festivals held around the same date as the Olympics. It will make fascinating information to add to the article. I don't see it as plainly obvious that section refers only to Olympic festivals, call it Olympic games in other places if that is the meaning. This highlights the severe Hellenic bias of the article. Surely the sporting festivals in other areas of the world should be compared and contrasted here, or it will make for a very insular and ethno-phobic article. Paul Bedson ❉talk❉ 17:01, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
My god, you're just not getting it. This article is strictly about the ancient Olympics. What part of that do you not understand? The section on "Other Festivals" strictly refers to other Olympic festivals. It's not an article on Ancient Sporting Events all over the world. Otherwise you would have to add mention of every single sporting event in the ancient world, at which point the "Other Festivals" section would balloon out of control and quickly dwarf the rest of the article. I don't mind you including the material in appropriate articles, but it is way beyond the scope of this particular article. Also knock it off with the veiled ethnic attacks, you've been warned about those already. Any more and you will reported and blocked. Clear? Athenean (talk) 17:08, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
I agree with Athenean. If we don't have an overview article on Sports and athletics in the ancient world, then start one, and please link it in the "See also" section. The "other festivals" section is a summary section about Olympic-style games that were direct imitations and referred to as such. The "Hellenic bias" charge is silly, if you'll pardon my bluntness: it's like saying an article on Greek tragedy should also cover all tragedies ever written. Please see WP:SCOPE. Cynwolfe (talk) 17:54, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
I am not the one attacking other ethnicities by deleting material about them. Quite openly with no veiling about it. I am not trying to make any personal attack at all, although I am attacking the scope of these articles. I am not saying that Greek tragedy should cover all tragedies ever written, but in that article again, tremendous Hellenic bias seems to source the origins of greek tragedy to tribal times, completely skipping any mention of the Ugarit Baal-cycle, like no-one's even heard of Sumer or the Lament for Ur! Such origins are clearly within the scope of the article and writing articles in such a way to portray Greek Civilization springing up out of nothingness will result in Wikipedia looking like it's written by a bunch of cliquey history-denialists. For now, you have highlighted that the History of sports page is in need of closer attention than this one in order to address this inbalance. Paul Bedson ❉talk❉ 00:58, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
I personally have no interest in these intellectually numbing arguments about origins. They tell me nothing. What I'm interested in is the culture of a given people at a given time. How did the Greeks celebrate the Olympics? What did it mean to them? I'm just as interested in ancient sport in Ireland. I love Ireland. My husband is Irish. I've been to Ireland a few times. I've never been to Greece. I may never go to Greece. But unless you have a reliable source that says the Olympic Games in ancient Greece were founded or influenced by the Irish, that stuff does not belong in this article. Please review WP:SCOPE. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:34, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
I get what you're saying and hope you enjoy the makeover I have been doing on the History of sports, where the info is better placed. I've retitled the "Festivals in other places" to read "Olympic festivals in other places" to clarify the situation if that's how the article wants to read. Regarding influence, connection and origins of the Olympics outside of Greece, all the Irish references I could find are in the thread above, they are exhaustive and no-one seems to bother to read or comment on any of them, they're all apparently just "bad mmmkay". Regarding the Phoenician source, Labib Boutros (December 1981). Phoenician sport, its influence on the origin of the Olympic games. Gieben. ISBN 978-90-70265-13-7. Retrieved 26 September 2012. apparently it is good enough for the Encyclopedia of the Ancient Greek World, David Sacks; Oswyn Murray; Lisa R. Brody (1 January 2009). Encyclopedia of the Ancient Greek World. Infobase Publishing. pp. 266–. ISBN 978-1-4381-1020-2. Retrieved 26 September 2012. but not good enough for here. Paul Bedson ❉talk❉ 18:27, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Obviously this conversation is dead and gone but, since both sides seemed to be talking past each other and it seems like some of these issues may come up again if this page gets its needed overhaul, a few notes. A) Complaining about "Hellenic bias" in an article on the ancient Olympics is like complaining about the Jewish bias of an article on kosher food: it's utterly nonsensical. It's well within the realm of possibility that the Greeks figured out how to organize a footrace with each other without the Lament of Ur or Baal Cycle getting anywhere near them. The Matter of Britain notwithstanding, the Irish are even further beside the point. The article should be about the ancient Olympics, which were not only Greek but racially cleansed no-barbarians-allowed Greek into the Roman era afaik. B) Having said that, despite their Greek origin and the racist imperialism when the new one started, the modern Olympics are obviously bigger and international now. It is worth listing links to other cultures' similar traditions so people can have a greater connection to the idea. WP:WEIGHT applies, though: it should be a paragraph overview at the bottom or just a list of See alsos. — LlywelynII 21:32, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Dating

Wow. This is really bad. There's obviously tons of scholarship, but there are only a few main sources of surviving literature about the Olympics. We should go through them in the article.

At minimum, it's Hippias who put Coroebus's victory in 776 BC, not Aristotle, and no one has ever accepted that as the date of the first Olympic Games. Eusebius records people arguing about whether the games had started in remote prehistory, 27 games before Coroebus, or 13 but no one is recorded as arguing that his race had actually been the very first run. Coroebus's victory got numbered as the first known Olympiad but that was a separate thing from the first Olympic race. See esp. Pamela-Jane Shaw's Discrepancies in Olympiad Dating (or as much as you can get in preview, anyway).

Similarly, the stade shouldn't be listed as being "introduced" in 776.

Similarly, when someone has the time and authoritative sources to get this mess cleaned up, there's all the spillover on the related pages from Olympiad on. For example, the List of ancient Olympic victors talks about the "1st Games" instead of the 1st Olympiad (=1st recorded game). — LlywelynII 21:08, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Smith, Potter, Clinton, & al. also obviously can't be taken completely at face value but we shouldn't be leaving out historical sources and other good points they raise. They're at least not hidden behind an Elsevier, JSTOR, or other paywall. — LlywelynII 10:52, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Archive for this TP

This TP is really really old and really really long. I think an archive is in order. I tried creating one, but I actually haven't made one before, and it doesn't appear to have worked. I also wanted to set it to auto-archive content older than two months and set for that period of time going forward. If someone more experienced than I knows how to do that, I'd be happy to have them fix my errors. TY. — Moops ⋠T⋡ 20:28, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

I think I may have fixed the archive function for now, but still would only work going forward. I will also update it to one month. TY. — Moops ⋠T⋡ 21:35, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
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