Talk:Andy Kim (singer)

Year of birth

He had a hit in 1967 or 1968 called "How'd We Ever Get This Way". If he were truly born in '52, he would have been 15 or 16. Not buying 1952 for a second. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.31.33.97 (talk) 22:40, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

There are plenty of websites proffering 1946 (rather than 1952) as Kim's birth year. See [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7] etc. Interestingly two of those listed are Wikipedia pages ! Is another look at this detail worth pursuing further ? Thank you,

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 21:23, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I have my suspicions that the 1952 birth date has been massaged into his bio over the years for vanity purposes. The job appears to have been so thorough over the decades that it has now almost made it difficult to track down current material which bears his actual birth year of 1946. I looked at a number of newspaper stories regarding him from the late 60's and early to mid 70's, and each time his age comes up it seems to correlate with a birth year of 1946. Here's one example of what I'm talking about [8]. His purported age in this article from 1974 is 27, in other words, his birth year is 1946. I suspect that it was during the period in the early 80's when he reinvented his image and adopted the name "Baron Longfellow", that the six years first began to be shaved off in his press releases; knocking him back in terms of his age, from his mid 30's to a much more pop star friendly "late 20's". I have a fair degree of confidence that eventually someone with much more interest in his career and this article than I do, will come along and string enough of these older entertainment news source references together to support a mention of this discrepancy. cheers Deconstructhis (talk) 06:05, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Here's one more possible indicator of the 1946 date, as opposed to 1952. In 1974, Kim gave an interview[9] in which he was quoted as saying that his father had been 65 years of age when he had been born and that his father's current age (in 1974) was 92. If you tally it up, this actually produces a 1947 birth date for Kim, but barring a one year dating slip up by either the articles' writer or Kim himself, it's close enough to make it interesting, although obviously not definitive. If you take the chronology derived from the All Music Guide associated with Derek R Bullamore's link[10] above literally and you accept the 1952 birth year, Mr. Kim was on his own cutting singles in New York City in 1963 at age 11. Although possible, I'd suggest kind of unlikely. It's considerably more believable if he was in fact born in 1946 or thereabouts, making him around 17 at the time. There's definitely something not quite right with the 1952 claim. cheers Deconstructhis (talk) 00:41, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I would agree. Can I propose that the 1946 birth date is incorporated in the main article; with the alluded to reliable references duly added to support this. If necessary, with a codicil suggesting that his date of birth is open to scrutiny. I would lay money on it being 1946, and at this stage of his life (and mine), would take some convincing to the contrary.

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 01:20, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Just added references to support the 1946 birth date. UPI and MTV seem to meet WP:RS, as opposed to record shop sites and WP itself (WP:CIRCULAR). Ideally, local and older references such as the The Gazette (Montreal) should be sought for supporting info. Dl2000 (talk) 01:20, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

(copied and pasted from my own talk page to which it was forwarded for comment)

"In reference to Andy Kim's Biography and Year of Birth: Corrections that have been made by myself are per the LIVING ARTIST Andy Kim. If anyone has a discrepancy, please contact Andy Kim and he will confirm all data. As to the various birth years... you will find from 1932 through 1952 listed in many different websites. I, for one, see no reason to get in a fizzle over a birth year... I personally feel an artist has no need to give a birth year in a biography at all. But since this is the subject, the correct year is 1952... any discussions I have seen here are assumed and not factual. Until one knows the facts about another's life, assumptions are meaningless.

Please feel free to email Andy Kim with any questions: andy@andykimmusic.com He will be happy to answer. On a side note: Andy Kim is getting a bit annoyed with the irresponsible changes to his information on Wikipedia, especially due to some coming close to libelous. If entries can not be controlled then Wikipedia will be asked to remove the Andy Kim page and any other pages connected to the name Andy Kim." (Betbytes (talk) 16:20, 29 July 2009 (UTC)Betbytes) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Betbytes (talk • contribs) "

(End of quote) Please no threats, especially implied legal ones. In my experience, you'll find that most responsible Wikipedia editors are more than happy to freely discuss the reasoning behind their contributions, and will respond much more readily to concerns regarding articles if the issues are discussed in a spirit of friendly cooperation, rather than statements that can be viewed as an "ultimatum". In our attempt to arrive at fair and accurate content in the encyclopedia we utilize a process that involves searching for information from reliable sources (see WP:RELY) to support any claims being made in an article (in this particular case a birth date) and arrive at a "final" version by utilizing a system of "consensus" (see WP:CON). This means that no single editor, including, perhaps especially including, the subject of the article itself can unilaterally determine the content, the exception of course is if the information itself is "damaging", especially in the case of a "biography of a living person", as you've already alluded to in your post. I would like to suggest that the actual properly sourced birth year of an individual would be hard pressed to be described as "damaging" in that sense, and because of that if its accuracy can be demonstrated to be in question, through the use of reliable sources, that discrepancy should appear in the article, if we're attempting to be neutral regarding the subject. In my personal opinion, there are already more than an adequate number of differing source's pertaining to Mr. Kim's birth year to at least substantiate the minimal claim that it is disputed. It's fairly easy to see why it's disputed, simply by examining some of the links that have already been put forward here on the talk page and by doing a series of Google searches centred on his name(s) and the titles of some of his early recordings. Here's another example of what I'm talking about. This is link to a fairly straight forward biography of Mr. Kim's that stipulates a 1952 birth year[11]. Take note however that further down the page within that material, there is made mention of a recording purportedly created by Mr. Kim titled "I Loved You Once", on United Artists records. Several sources on line indicate that this recording was made in 1963 (see [12] and [13] (bottom of page) for examples) however, I think after listening to the recording itself (link to song available on site) it's fairly reasonable to be inclined toward assuming that Mr. Kim is not in fact 11 years old at the time it was created, but rather 17, as would be indicated by a birth year of 1946. In my opinion, as I indicated in an earlier post and continues to be the case, no single source has yet come forward that indisputably points to 1946 as his actual year of birth, but there are numerous sourced indicators available that strongly point to the matter being reasonably in dispute. My intention is to revert the article back to the point where a "disputed" template is in place in the first line and would like to request that all proposed changes be previously discussed here on the article's talk page before adding them. Please do not unilaterally remove templates requesting further discussion toward consensus from the encyclopedia without addressing the issue at hand. Also, please do not "sign" material being added to an article. Hopefully, this matter can be dealt with through discussion and consensus with a little 'good will' on all sides. cheers Deconstructhis (talk) 22:25, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

When "Andre A. Youakim", a.k.a. "Andry Youakim", a.k.a. "Andre Kim", a.k.a. "Andry Kim" (the record contains all four names) married Sandra Drummond a.k.a. Sandra Crosby in Los Angeles on August 14, 1977, he gave his age as 30 years. That would support a date of birth in the period August 1946–August 1947. Source: Ancestry.com. California Marriage Index, 1960-1985 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: The Generations Network, Inc., 2007. — Walloon (talk) 10:28, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

I recently interviewed Andy and asked him about this birth date mix-up. He confessed to lying about his age when he first began recording, in order to appear older. Therefore, his true birth date would be the later date. I will be publishing an online article based on this interview this week and will cursorily mention the age controversy, but I am not sure if it is official enough for Wikipedia. Please advise. Sarah sarita (talk) 02:23, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

I think it depends on what you mean by "published" in this context. I don't have any problem with material being included in this article that's derived from a source that meets Wikipedia's criteria for reliability. However I think if "published", in this context, means added material is being sourced to a self published blog or website, an issue may arise. I'm somewhat sceptical about the claim that Kim allegedly was "lying about his age when he first began recording, in order to appear older." For me, the greatest difficulty in accepting a 1952 birth date for Andy is information like this [14] (bottom of the page). If we accept his own biographical claims that he left Montreal for New York on his own, where he made his first recordings, and we're looking at those recordings as having been made in 1963; we're stuck with the notion that Mr. Kim was eleven years old at the time. I find it a little hard to believe that any amount of "lying" would convince an adult in the music business that an eleven year old boy was actually 17. A birth date sometime around 1946 makes a whole lot more sense in this context in my opinion. 74.14.25.111 (talk) 06:43, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Birthdate issue is settled

Two ironclad reliable sources give his birth date in this article. Any original research by contributors can and should be reverted. The Squicks (talk) 20:21, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

A birth certificate is an "ironclad reliable source". All Music Guide and The Billboard Book of Number 1 Hits are not. — Walloon (talk) 21:50, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Are you aware of the fact that if every single biographical article on Wikipedia required a birth certificate, then essentially no articles would have birthdates? The Squicks (talk) 01:16, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Please read WP:V and WP:RS. The Squicks (talk) 01:17, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

If you knew of a reliable source with a different birthdate, than I would enthusiastically support changing the article. But everything that I see in the above section is pure original research. The Squicks (talk) 01:25, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Between an "ironclad reliable source" and The Billboard Book of Number 1 Hits are better-than-Billboard records. The age he gave on his California marriage certificate (cited above) would place his birth in 1946–1947. — Walloon (talk) 05:19, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Not remotely close to being settled for all the reasons outlined above.--99.253.224.234 (talk) 05:03, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for a reliable source to be provided that indicates that he has a different birthdate. The Squicks (talk) 06:47, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Either provide a source, or I am removing the tags. The Squicks (talk) 06:50, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Marriage record of "Andre A. Youakim", a.k.a. "Andry Youakim", a.k.a. "Andre Kim", a.k.a. "Andry Kim". Ancestry.com. California Marriage Index, 1960-1985 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: The Generations Network, Inc., 2007. — Walloon (talk) 09:24, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm still waiting. Provide me with a link that proves (a)what you just typed is correct, (b) that that person is indeed the same Andy Kim, and (c) that the source is a reliable one. The burden of proof is on you to support any addition of material to a page. The Squicks (talk) 18:10, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I looked on my own and I found several good sources. The article now says:

The year of Kim's birth has been reported variably as either 1952, cited by the All Music Guide and Billboard Books,[2][1] or 1947, cited by VH1 and United Press International,[3][4] or 1946, cited by Rolling Stone.[5]

The Squicks (talk) 18:44, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

The Web site is given above: Ancestry.com. It is a subscription service. If you are not a subscriber, many public libraries have subscriptions. The database referenced above is linked to photographic images of the California marriage index, issued by the State of California. http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb153/SPDhuey/AndyKimmar.jpg. If you want to continue to be obstructionist, apply the same standards to the sources you give. Have you established that they are reliable? — Walloon (talk) 20:21, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Photobucket is not a reliable source. And, clearly, it's you who is being obstructionist. I've been adding other, reliable sources that support the position of a different birthdate. You have your own personal pet theory based on a synthesis within a website that you won't even provide detail about. That won't fly. The Squicks (talk) 05:36, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

You are free to visit Ancestry.com on your own. It is a website, not a secret, in fact the leading genealogy research website on the internet. The database is a published work. And Ancestry itself reproduces by photographic copy the California marriage index published by the State of California, a reliable source, certainly as reliable as the Billboard book of whatever. There's no "pet theory" here, just the facts stated in Andy Kim's marriage record: he stated he was 30 years old when he married on August 14, 1977. — Walloon (talk) 18:45, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

In my opinion, there is sufficient evidence to minimally substantiate that there is a discrepancy between the definitive date that was previously being given for Kim's birth in the article and the available sources to warrant at least a footnote that points out that discrepancy. United Press International [15] gives his birth year as 1946; these two newspaper articles [16] [17] also indicate a 1946 birth year, rather than 1952, and in both of the latter cases, Kim himself is cited as the source of the information. Unless an argument can be made that there is a reason *not* to accept these sources as reliable according to our policies, I'm unclear how it can be argued that a basic discrepancy does not exist in the sources themselves. cheers Deconstructhis (talk) 18:55, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

In support of Walloon's marriage records contention, it's interesting, although obviously not definitive for our purposes, to note that Kim was touring with a "Sandy Crosby" in the mid 70's [18]. cheers Deconstructhis (talk) 18:55, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

My mistake, both VH1, United Press International, and Rolling Stone all give 1946 as the year and not 47. I believe that the article as it is now is acceptable. The Squicks (talk) 20:12, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Marriage data

I'm curious, if you consider this the same "Andy Kim" being discussed in the article; why didn't he specifically add that name to the list of variants? It does seem a little odd to me that someone would systematically go to the trouble of listing those names on a form and then leave out the most common variant of their name. Why go the trouble of getting the surname spelling correct? I suppose we can attribute it to someone trying to obfuscate the record in some way, but we have no evidence of that. Apart from the trivial newspaper reference I found linking Kim with someone named "Sandra Crosby", in my opinion we are drawing an inference here in a BLP that could possibly be incorrect. In policy, we're asked to edit biographies of living persons in a "conservative" fashion, because of that, I'd like to see a solid secondary reference that links "our" Andy Kim to the reference you're providing. cheers Deconstructhis (talk) 22:18, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Potential article name change

Due to the rise in notability of Andy Kim (politician), it may be necassary to rename this article to "Andy Kim (musician)" and either rename the politician's page to "Andy Kim", or leave be and create a disambiguation page. From looking at the article traffic statistics, the politician gets more pageviews; this page (the musician) has also received a significant bump in traffic since the election, most likely users who are looking for the politician. Sk5893 (talk) 23:59, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 9 January 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 04:17, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

---

Andy Kim → Andy Kim (singer) – No clear primary topic per 2019 and 2020 pageviews, where only a slim margin separates him and the politician. Disambiguate. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 03:37, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

• Malformed proposal since it doesn't say what to do with the Andy Kim name. There's not disambiguation page to move there, is there? Is this a conventional 2-dabs? Dicklyon (talk) 05:20, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

  A disambiguation page will be created. The current status quo is already WP:TWODABS, but I am arguing that it should be scrapped as the singer is no longer the primary topic, which requires it to be "much more likely than any other single topic" to be the sought-after one. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 00:02, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

• Support move to Andy Kim (singer) and conversion of "Andy Kim" into a dab page. Conifer (talk) 19:59, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
• Support, this has been fairly obvious for a while. Given that there are three things called Andy Kim (the singer, his self-titled album, and the politician), I don't even think this is really a WP:TWODABS scenario, so there's no hurry to declare a primary topic here. Nohomersryan (talk) 03:00, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Song by the Arrogant Worms

Is the song Andy Kim by the Arrogant Worms worth mentioning here? 2001:9E8:6B5A:2100:E925:CD13:8B10:D806 (talk) 11:09, 22 February 2024 (UTC)