Talk:Ariel Henry

Ariel Henry is not the president of Haiti. This is a fake information.

Ariel Henry is not the president of Haiti. This is a fake information. That man is a defacto prime Minister whose name is quoted in the investigation about the assassination of the former Haitian President Jovenel Moise. 172.58.160.24 (talk) 16:47, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Got a source for that? --N Panama 84534 (talk) 04:15, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

I don't know anything about Haiti - but this President/Prime Minister thing is very confusing. The President of Haiti article says he is acting president as does the infobox on this page - which also says he is incumbent prime minister. However, the opening paras of this article only say he is acting prime minister. It's clear there's controversy around this, but that should be reflected and not ignored in the opening paras of the article. I suspect the article is reflecting certain political perspectives on the issues and therefore may be in breach of #NPOV — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.46.83.193 (talk) 17:48, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Should we watch for the possibility of propoganda in western sources?

https://twitter.com/jasonjamesbnn/status/1769742582643572858

I understand twitter isn't a good source per say, but considering the content of the tweet and my personal experiences, I feel we should consider the possibilty western sources are putting a spin on the current haiti situation as an excuse to justify military invervention

In short, I feel we should challenge some of the "Big" sources with sources that are generally critical of western imperialism, as they would shed light on different aspects of this chaos. Vladimir Hunter (talk) 21:28, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Ariel Henry resignation

many newspapers are typing that Ariel Henry resigned after he failed to return to Haiti following the capture of the airport by gangs Power-minecrafto (talk) 00:51, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Acting President

@SashiRolls: Ariel Henry was not acting President. He was chairman of Council of Ministers, an institution who like to Transitional Presidential Council, rules the country. Panam2014 (talk) 15:44, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm glad we agree. This is my only edit to this entry ever, and it was to correct that misinformation.

NB: there are some sloppy RS that affirm he was acting president however. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 15:50, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

@SashiRolls: so the article should be reworded. Panam2014 (talk) 15:53, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it should. Isn't your keyboard working? :P  Done Regular readers of Le Moniteur should not hesitate to provide evidence there was a swearing-in of Henry as President if it did in fact take place, though...-- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 16:04, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

@SashiRolls: That Henry was the acting President is cited with sources and has been there for a long time. As you have made a controversial change, it is up to you disprove it. Not swearing-in isn't an evidence, especially when the position is in acting capacity. I can't find anything about Boisvert being sworn in as the PM either. Linkin Prankster (talk) 09:15, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Please do not editwar against consensus.

• BBC: "Haiti has not had a president since Jovenel Moïse": [1]
• France 24: " President Jovenel Moïse, who was assassinated in 2021, was not replaced, with Henry leading the country after his death." [2]
• Guardian: "Moïse had controversially extended his own mandate before he was assassinated and the succession of Ariel Henry – previously the prime minister – has never been ratified by law." [3]
• NYT: "Haiti has spiraled into a state of extreme unrest since the assassination of President Jovenel Moïse in 2021 led to widespread gang violence. To date, the country has no president nor any other elected national officials." [4]
• Le Nouvelliste (quoting former president Jocelerme Privert): « L'article 149 de la Constitution parle de vacances au niveau de la présidence. Il y a deux façons de combler une vacance présidentielle : le Conseil des ministres, sous la présidence du Premier ministre, exerce le pouvoir exécutif. La deuxième façon de gérer une vacance présidentielle, c'est l'Assemblée nationale qui élit un président provisoire » [5] (which makes the Council of Ministers the acting head of state)

De facto head of state is fine, as RS show. Acting president is not, unless you can show he was sworn in. NB: none of the three refs allegedly supporting "acting president" even used the term. yes, I know there is a non-RS & Forbes who sloppily say he might be acting president shortly after Moïse's assassination elsewhere in the article... -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 20:03, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Henry was discharging the Presidency as acting President (this is sourced in article) as the head of the Council of Minister. Not the actual President.

This is the Article 149 in English: "In case of vacancy of the Presidency of the Republic either by resignation, dismissal, death or in case of physical or mental permanent incapacity duly declared, the Council of Ministers, under the presidency of the Prime Minister, exercises the Executive Power until the election of another President." [6]

The Constitution itself says the presidency belongs to the PM. I'm sorry but your sources aren't enough. Linkin Prankster (talk) 03:27, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

In this case, the ballot for the election of the new President of the Republic for the time that remains to complete the mandate takes place sixty (60) days at least and one hundred twenty (120) days at most after the beginning of the vacancy, in accordance with the Constitution and the electoral law. (the part LP doesn't quote, nb: JM's mandate ended on 7 Feb 2022 at the latest, elections did not ever take place, AH was not PM when JM was assassinated, etc., etc.) -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 13:24, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Also avoid edit warring until you discuss this issue for a while. That is not how consensus is proclaimed. First discuss, and after a while if you still have more people agreeing with you than me, then your edit can be added. Linkin Prankster (talk) 03:33, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

As was already explained to you, we go by what RS say. The Constitution indeed shows that the Council of Ministers exercises the executive power, not the Prime Minister. This, in combination with the lack of elections for three years, is the reason that RS (in particular those in Haiti and top-tier international papers) do not call Henry the acting president. (To help you understand the distinction: here is an article about the Council of Ministers using its executive power to authorize the investigating judge in the Moïse assassination to question Ariel Henry through the publication of an ordinance: [7]). You may think you know better, but to gain consensus for this addition you'll need to bring some solid evidence. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 12:06, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

First of all, it is up you to gain consensus and WP:BURDEN is on you. You never discussed this issue before making your change (and simply another user saying he isn't the President isn't a discussion).

As far as sources for him being acting president go, here are some:

• Ariel Henry, who had been acting president of Haiti since the 2021 assassination of Jovenel Moïse, was pushed out of office by leaders of Caribbean states. - Le Mondé
• Moïse was replaced by an acting president, Ariel Henry, who is unelected and widely viewed as illegitimate. - The Guardian
• Security is so poor that Haiti’s embattled prime minister and acting president, Ariel Henry, requested intervention from foreign troops to quell the violence. - Foreign Policy

You can find more sources if you search it up. And I'd be willing to provide them. But I believe there are enough high-quality RS to add that he is the acting president.

Your comments have also been uncivil. Please avoid language that runs down others like "You may think you know better". And I don't get what you mean by "we explained it to you" considering only you're the one that did it. Please keep this issue on the article talk page and away from my talk page. Linkin Prankster (talk) 15:01, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Please do not misquote me. Thank you. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 16:46, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

WP:Burden says: "The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material. That's you, not me. As stated below in the section "bottom of the barrel sources", an op-ed, a passing mention written by "interim" and a journalist saying that the claim is widely disputed are insufficient to justify making this claim. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 16:46, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Bottom of the barrel sources

1. author=interim
2. author says the claim to presidency is widely seen as illegitimate
3. op-ed by an Atlantic Council fellow clearly labeled "argument"

None of these sources are sufficient to make the claim in wikivoice. You have now made 3 reverts against TP consensus:

1. 14:45 8 May 2024
2. 03:30 8 May 2024
3. 09:04 7 May 2024 -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 15:45, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

   1) That author = interim is clearly just a mistake on the journal's part. There are other articles where it has happened too [8]. So not a reason to doubt the source and your reasoning (while I'll like to avoid saying this) is clearly reaching, Le Mondé is reliable.

   2) Nobody's disputing that Henry was seen as illegitimate, but he was also seen as the illegitimate PM [9]. But he held those powers regardless of who sees him as legitimate or illegitimate.

   3) Yes the FP source is labelled as an argument, but the argument is about Haiti needing foreign help. Not whether Henry is the president, and the author Imran Bayoumi has multiple qualifications in political topics [10]. WP:NEWSORG explicitly includes such "op-eds" by experts as reliable sources if they include facts: When taking information from opinion content, the identity of the author may help determine reliability. The opinions of specialists and recognized experts are more likely to be reliable and to reflect a significant viewpoint. If the statement is not authoritative, attribute the opinion to the author in the text of the article and do not represent it as fact. Reviews for books, movies, art, etc. can be opinion, summary, or scholarly pieces.

   4) Here's the same Foreign Policy saying Henry is acting President and it's not classified as an argument, but as a report from the journalist Robbie Gramer [11].

   The sources all follow Wikipedia policies, something you have chosen to discard.

   As far as consensus goes, you made no attempt at discussion before proclaiming consensus. That's why you have been reverted. Please avoid adding your content without a discussion. It's a requirement. See WP:NEGOTIATE. Linkin Prankster (talk) 16:47, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

I encourage you to self-revert. The sources historically in the lede do not support your claim. It is unfortunate that it is necessary to add such ugly tags due to a single person arguing against 3 people (IP, myself, & Panam) all saying that the info is insufficiently sourced. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 17:01, 8 May 2024 (UTC)