Talk:Ashkenazi Jews

Semi-protected edit request on 26 April 2024

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Ashkenazi Jews, also known as Ashkenazic Jews or Ashkenazim, constitute a Jewish diaspora population that emerged in the Holy Roman Empire around the end of the first millennium CE.

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Ashkenazi Jews, also known as Ashkenazic Jews or Ashkenazim, constitute a Jewish diaspora population that emerged in the Holy Roman Empire.

"Around the end of the first millenium CE" is not reflected in the source used: Mosk, Carl (2013). Nationalism and economic development in modern Eurasia page 143.

Mosk writes The Germans were not the only group invited into the empires and kingdoms that controlled territories in Central Europe. The Jews were an important second group. There were two distinct groups of Jews with two separate geographic patterns of migration throughout Europe: Ashkenazim and Sephardim. In 1900 of the approximately 10 million Jews worldwide, over 70 percent were Ashken- azim residing in Central Europe. In general the Ashkenazim originally came out of the Holy Roman Empire, speaking a version of German that incorporates Hebrew and Slavic words, Yiddish. Encouraged to move out of the Holy Roman Empire as persecution of their communities intensified during the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, the Ashkenazim community increasingly gravitated toward Poland. He does not say when the Ashkenazim originated. The current statement is not supported by the citation. 2601:204:F100:83B0:E1C4:4964:FC7F:5162 (talk) 10:48, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done. Ashkenazi_Jews#High_and_Late_Middle_Ages_migrations seems to support this statement and is referenced - perhaps look in those references? Jayjg ^(talk) 14:56, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Another Semi-protected edit request on 26 April 2024

In the lead,

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Ashkenazim adapted their traditions to Europe and underwent a transformation in their interpretation of Judaism.

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Ashkenazim adapted their traditions to Europe and underwent development in their traditions.

This reflects the language used in the source better. The source is Centre, UNESCO World Heritage. "ShUM cities of Speyer, Worms and Mainz" (Archived).

The kehillot ShUM played a major role in establishing the specific principles underpinning Jewish life north of the Alps by adapting key aspects of Jewish cultural traditions from Babylon, the Holy Land, the western Mediterranean area and northern France – some of them stretching back to Antiquity – to the specific conditions of their living environment north of the Alps. Indeed, their influence even extended to how such principles were physically handed down from generation to generation. This novel development of Jewish ways of life and traditions, partially coloured by the Jews' close contact with a Christian environment, became characteristic of Ashkenazi Judaism, which in the modern era assumed lasting importance in the New World and in the state of Israel. For many of the legal decisions and traditions, rites and customs (minhagim) passed down by scholars in the Rhine region remain binding for Orthodox Jews to this very day.

It is a stretch to say that the Ashkenazim "underwent a transformation in their interpretation of Judaism" based what is said in the source. I do not see any evidence of a change in interpretation. 2601:204:F100:83B0:E1C4:4964:FC7F:5162 (talk) 11:03, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

One more Semi-protected edit request on 26 April 2024

In the section Ashkenazi_Jews#Customs,_laws_and_traditions,

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The Halakhic practices of (Orthodox) Ashkenazi Jews may differ from those of Sephardi Jews, particularly in matters of custom. Differences are noted in the Shulkhan Arukh itself, in the gloss of Moses Isserles. Well known differences in practice include: Observance of Pesach (Passover): Ashkenazi Jews traditionally refrain from eating legumes, grain, millet, and rice (quinoa, however, has become accepted as foodgrain in the North American communities), whereas Sephardi Jews typically do not prohibit these foods. Ashkenazi Jews freely mix and eat fish and milk products; some Sephardic Jews refrain from doing so. Ashkenazim are more permissive toward the usage of wigs as a hair covering for married and widowed women. In the case of kashrut for meat, conversely, Sephardi Jews have stricter requirements – this level is commonly referred to as Beth Yosef. Meat products that are acceptable to Ashkenazi Jews as kosher may therefore be rejected by Sephardi Jews. Notwithstanding stricter requirements for the actual slaughter, Sephardi Jews permit the rear portions of an animal after proper Halakhic removal of the sciatic nerve, while many Ashkenazi Jews do not. This is not because of different interpretations of the law; rather, slaughterhouses could not find adequate skills for correct removal of the sciatic nerve and found it more economical to separate the hindquarters and sell them as non-kosher meat. Ashkenazi Jews often name newborn children after deceased family members, but not after living relatives. Sephardi Jews, in contrast, often name their children after the children's grandparents, even if those grandparents are still living. A notable exception to this generally reliable rule is among Dutch Jews, where Ashkenazim for centuries used the naming conventions otherwise attributed exclusively to Sephardim such as Chuts. Ashkenazi tefillin bear some differences from Sephardic tefillin. In the traditional Ashkenazic rite, the tefillin are wound towards the body, not away from it. Ashkenazim traditionally don tefillin while standing, whereas other Jews generally do so while sitting down. Ashkenazic traditional pronunciations of Hebrew differ from those of other groups. The most prominent consonantal difference from Sephardic and Mizrahic Hebrew dialects is the pronunciation of the Hebrew letter tav in certain Hebrew words (historically, in postvocalic undoubled context) as an /s/ and not a /t/ or /θ/ sound.The prayer shawl, or tallit (or tallis in Ashkenazi Hebrew), is worn by the majority of Ashkenazi men after marriage, but western European Ashkenazi men wear it from Bar Mitzvah. In Sephardi or Mizrahi Judaism, the prayer shawl is commonly worn from early childhood.

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The Halakhic practices of (Orthodox) Ashkenazi Jews may differ from those of Sephardi Jews, particularly in matters of custom. Differences are noted in the Shulkhan Arukh itself, in the gloss of Moses Isserles. Well known differences in practice include: The prayer shawl, or tallit (or tallis in Ashkenazi Hebrew), is worn by the majority of Ashkenazi men after marriage, but western European Ashkenazi men wear it from Bar Mitzvah. In Sephardi or Mizrahi Judaism, the prayer shawl is commonly worn from early childhood.

Only the statement about the tallit/tallis is sourced. The rest are unsourced and unverifiable, so should be removed. From wikipedia policy Wikipedia:Verifiability, Any material lacking an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the material may be removed and should not be restored without an inline citation to a reliable source. I challenge the unsourced claims and politely ask that they be removed, or sourced within a reasonable time. 2601:204:F100:83B0:E1C4:4964:FC7F:5162 (talk) 11:13, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done. All of these statements are both true and uncontroversial. A more productive approach would be to find sources. Jayjg ^(talk) 14:59, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

More Semi-protected edit request on 26 April 2024

For the same reason as above, I request that the section Ashkenazi_Jews#Ashkenazic liturgy be removed, or sourced within a reasonable time. 2601:204:F100:83B0:E1C4:4964:FC7F:5162 (talk) 11:17, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done. These statements are both true and uncontroversial. A more productive approach would be to find sources. Jayjg ^(talk) 15:00, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Southern european

Why does it say southern european at the start when the genetics section shows eastern european origins. 103.146.137.190 (talk) 09:21, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 May 2024 ... The Origins of Ashkenaz, Ashkenazic Jews, and Yiddish

Please change this...

constitute a Jewish diaspora population that emerged in the Holy Roman Empire around the end of the first millennium CE.[8]

To this...

are not a Jewish diaspora population but one that emerged in a region in northeastern Turkey that harbors four primeval villages whose names resemble Ashkenaz.

See...

"The non-Levantine origin of AJs is further supported by an ancient DNA analysis of six Natufians and a Levantine Neolithic (Lazaridis et al., 2016), some of the most likely Judaean progenitors (Finkelstein and Silberman, 2002; Frendo, 2004). In a principle component analysis (PCA), the ancient Levantines clustered predominantly with modern-day Palestinians and Bedouins and marginally overlapped with Arabian Jews, whereas AJs clustered away from Levantine individuals and adjacent to Neolithic Anatolians and Late Neolithic and Bronze Age Europeans."

"The meaning of the term “Ashkenaz” and the geographical origins of AJs and Yiddish are some of the longest standing questions in history, genetics, and linguistics. In our previous work we have identified “ancient Ashkenaz,” a region in northeastern Turkey that harbors four primeval villages whose names resemble Ashkenaz. Here, we elaborate on the meaning of this term and argue that it acquired its modern meaning only after a critical mass of Ashkenazic Jews arrived in Germany. We show that all bio-localization analyses have localized AJs to Turkey and that the non-Levantine origins of AJs are supported by ancient genome analyses. Overall, these findings are compatible with the hypothesis of an Irano-Turko-Slavic origin for AJs and a Slavic origin for Yiddish and contradict the predictions of Rhineland hypothesis that lacks historical, genetic, and linguistic support (Table 1)." 2601:444:300:B070:F8FC:776F:48EC:78C7 (talk) 16:46, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

That study represents a minority view. The majority of studies and scholars, who have published on that topic, conclude very differently. And Elhaik's work in that area has also been substantially criticized by others in the field. Your proposal would be highly WP:UNDUE. It would not make sense, and would be against Wikipedia policy, to atlar the article so that it reflects or endorses a minority and arguably WP:FRINGE position. Skllagyook (talk) 18:49, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

You said that before and you were overturned ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genetic_studies_of_Jews&diff=1221590721&oldid=1221574697

Also see ...

In terms of pure theory, Elhaik has published a critique of the methodology of PCA that undergirds the whole structure of population genetics. Re-analyzing 12 PCA applications he found that the method lends itself to generating desired outcomes, and is characterized by cherrypicking and circular reasoning. The design flexibility of PCA enables anyone to buttress preconceived claims about ethnogenesis. He illustrated the point by instancing the case of genetic studies of the origins of Ashkenazi Jews. Of some 21,840 papers published by Nature Portfolio in 2022, this paper was ranked among the top 100 downloaded scientific papers for that year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eran_Elhaik#Research 2601:444:300:B070:F8FC:776F:48EC:78C7 (talk) 19:25, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

What you are proposing here is replacing the language of the lede/article, which reflects the majority of research and is supported by multiple references of reliable sources (WP:RS), with a minority opinion. That is quite different from what you did before at the other article. (And your previous edits there may possibly merit further discussion - with more editors involved). But as I explained earlier, being frequently downloaded is not the same as being widely supported by relevant experts. What you are proposing here clearly violates Wikipedia policies as I explained above. (Please see the links in my first reply). Skllagyook (talk) 19:41, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Also See ... The Geography of Jewish Ethnogenesis

"A reevaluation of the anthropological genetics literature on Jewish populations reveals them not simply to be a body of genetically related people descending from a small group of common ancestors, but rather a “mosaic” of peoples of diverse origins. Greek and other pre-medieval historiographic sources suggest the patterning evident in recent genetic studies could be explained by a major contribution from Greco-Roman and Anatolian-Byzantine converts who affiliated themselves with some iteration of Judaism beginning in the first and second centuries ce and continuing into the Middle Ages. These populations, along with Babylonian and Alexandrian Jewish communities, indigenous North Africans, and Slavic-speaking converts to Judaism, support a mosaic geography of Jewish ancestry in Europe and Western Asia, rather than one arising from a limited set of lineages originating solely in Palestine."

https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/702709

Or search... The Geography of Jewish Ethnogenesis.pdf 2601:444:300:B070:F8FC:776F:48EC:78C7 (talk) 21:37, 4 May 2024 (UTC)