Talk:Athens/Archive 2

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Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Photos

To El Greco: I really cant understand your persistence in removing photos that add value to the article by actually showing things the article describes for instance, Athens tram or Athens suburban rail. I dont add photos of monkeys or space shuttles. Other articles regarding other countries capitals have much much more photos ranging to 15-30 photos! Athens has in my opinion very few photos and could actually be enriched. Please stop removing them. The reason you say is simply not valid!77.83.202.65 (talk) 15:14, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not an image repository. That's what Wikicommons is for. So just because an image exist doesn't mean that it needs to be added. _{El Greco}^(talk) 15:30, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

You keep saying Wikipedia is not an image repository but you fail to reply to what I say. I said that Articles are enriched with the appropriate images. If what you say was valid you should go and erase photos from London, New York, Madrid, Instabul or other articles where many many photos are present on those articles. Also, suburbs are part of Athens and described in the article, thus the photo stays. Thanks! 77.83.202.65 (talk) 16:11, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

There already is a photo of a suburb, no need for more than one, since this article is about Athens, not Maroussi. _{El Greco}^(talk) 23:06, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Proper section for museums

I am trying to standardize the presentation of museums in big city articles. Here is a general picture of the present situation: User:Hoverfish/Sandbox#Europe. In most big cities museums are mentioned under "Culture", "Main sights" or "Tourism" sections. In Athens they are mentioned under "Urban landscape", which I find confusing, thought the building themselves may well be notable as part of the landscape. I suggest subsection "Parks and Museums" becomes simply "Parks", while the notability of the architecture of some museum buildings is simply mentioned under subsection "Architecture", and the "Museums" as such get a subsection of their own under "Culture and contemporary life", linking as 'main article' to List of museums in Greece#Athens. Hoverfish Talk 05:59, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Twin cities

Just a very small point, but on the Mexico City page it lists Athens, Greece, as a twin/sister town. I see no such mention under Athens' twin cities - is that possible? 84.0.203.168 (talk) 19:38, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Either its an omission or they aren't sister cities. Unfortunately, I don't know how we can find out whether they are or not.--Ptolion (talk) 19:46, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

photos(in general)

I agree with the friend who says that the photos generally are usuful and in my opinion they make also the article more attractive to the readers.

I saw the article of "italy" ,of many italian cities,of "istanbul" and other major world cities and i think they overflow from pics---such as they were a travel guide---.

The greek articles i think are poor on this matter and no way they are "images repository".For example,cause i read the previous conversation ,its absolutely paralogism even to discuss if to put an image for Maroussi municipality in the article,such as it was another city. Athens is consisting by many many municipalities.

So,greeks be friendly with the pics!Greco22 (talk) 21:30, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Etimology

The name Athena may have come from Albanian goddess “Ethona” Dictionary of ancient deities By Patricia Turner, Charles Russell Coulter 2001

http://books.google.com/books?id=jEcpkWjYOZQC&pg=PA80&lpg=PA80&dq=athens+albanian+goddess&source=bl&ots=OtAelSKKA-&sig=NTChX8FYPi01pAJ2LTnw5SBpw7Q&hl=en&ei=W7ywS9baK9D24gaf6rm4Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CA8Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=athens%20albanian%20goddess&f=false —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.107.222.230 (talk) 14:56, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Neither Turner nor Coulter are academics on this field. Turner is a research writer and Coulter was an engineer/novelist. The sources the authors used for this are Albanian Constantine Anastasi Chekrezi[2] and Reverend Edwin E. Jacques,[3] based upon the Albanian word "E Thena" (say/speech - sic!). Neither Chekrezi nor Jacques make any claim about any 'Albanian Goddess' “Ethona” that is found in the book by Turner nor Coulter, they base their theory on the Albanian word "e thena" in which "e" is an article and "thena" is a participle of thom 'I say'. These 'sources' are rejected by modern linguistic scholars. The authors also claim the name Athena is a transliteration of the Vedic Ahana, that is based upon 19th century sources like George William Cox's "The mythology of the Aryan nations"[4] and Sir James Knowles[5]. I'm reverting the etymology section to its previous form until independent sources within the academic fields required can collaborate this "Albanian" connection to the etymology 'Athena'. (Angar432 (talk) 19:33, 2 April 2010 (UTC))

Graffitti

The young citizens of Athens should learn to respect more their city because a lot of graffitti gives a poor impression of the city.--88.18.148.222 (talk) 01:28, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

we can be the first ones. The UHI block has strong value added for the article

hence HUI block is restored. If you want to align Athens climate article to major cities, you can always write a UHI block for each one of the others. The Athens article is interesting also for mentioning and descriving this ascertained fact that is earning increasing importance in urban climate worldwide.

Btw a block about the 2007 heatwaves would be interesting.

93.145.243.189 (talk) 13:54, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

No.I dont think so

As I said,the motive to introduce it was bringing the polemics from the weather forum,thus again deleted.Shall be deleted each and everytime on these grounds and since there is no mediation for content dispute resolution,there is no point for it to remain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Weatherextremes (talk • contribs) 16:19, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

CLIMATE: URBAN HEAT ISLAND: OK, no problem. I will re-enter it again each time.

You are trying to censor scientific evidence in order to prevent readers from learning about 1) the existence of the strong urban heat island of Athens 2) the clear proves of its significant impact in biasing the temperature measures of the National Observatory of Athens (and so you mislead readers on important topics to health, economy, environment, and science), I'll ask a reprimand about your improper censorship. The point you have to bear in mind is that you are not entitled to remove documented scientific materials regarding relevant and pertinent topics in order to model what readers learn about Athens and what they are unadmitted to learn. Athens has strong UHI threatening environment and humans, and this UHI impacts the NOA time series threatening climatological research conclusions about climate change. For some reasons you seem to be very motived to squelch these facts. The behavior feeded by this attitude is totally against the encyclopaedic mission of Wikipedia and must be repressed. 93.145.243.189 (talk) 17:51, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

This debate is rapidly getting out of hand. The section, while sourced, is too long for this article and should be summarized down to 2-3 sentences per WP:SS. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a scientific review. A separate article can be created with all the information about the debate on the heat island, and a link to that article provided in the trimmed-down urban heat island section. Athenean (talk) 18:59, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

The escalation in contents has been necessary in order to mantain the information in front of misleading adds and/or manipulations of sentences. When one disputes contemporay satellite measurements by the use of a 25 years ago article (the respectable Katsoulis and Theoharatos 1985 article), only adding strong and stronger and stronger evidence given by more modern and methodologically stronger articles might work. And that I did. I agree that the proper section would be just more refined that "Athens has strong UHI threatening environment and humans, and this UHI impacts the NOA time series threatening climatological research conclusions about climate change and non-specialistic interpretation of climatological data" but this is exactly what that guy seems to be motived to censor. Amending (talk) 20:14, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

It's looking to me like it's time to start edit-protecting and throwing blocks around here. The participants would be well advised to conduct a rational discussion here on how much material should be included, and how it should be worded. Talk of censorship and edit summaries like "no problem, I will re-enter it again each time" is, to say the least, worrisome. Hash it out here on the talk page. Franamax (talk) 20:46, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

And to start with, I've semi-protected the page for three days so that registered editors can (hopefully) sort out the problems here, without anonymous interference. Franamax (talk) 20:55, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

And on further brief review, two more points: Athenean has provided some pretty good advice just above, which basically mirrors my first impression on reading the material; and as this appears to partially revolve around the issue of climate change, all editors should be aware that that topic has been contentious in the past, and currently administrators are given broad discretion to act. That's not a formal warning, just a heads up. Franamax (talk) 21:30, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Hi,I have re-deleted the UHI.Unless and Untill I can have an agreed content on the article I will not add it again.Mainly the behavior of bringing polemics from meteorological forums is what I am trying to avoid and due to the sensitive nature of the debate I will keep it as is until an agreed version is reached.However I am inclined not to include it at all —Preceding unsigned comment added by Weatherextremes (talk • contribs) 22:16, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I have no objection to the deletion of the section. This article is not the place for protracted, highly technical scientific debates about meteorology that 99% of our readers will be unable to follow. I could live with 1-2 sentences about the whole UHI thing, but anything more is not going to work. Athenean (talk) 22:25, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Hi Athenean,I am with you and I also agree, thus the deletion.A couple of sentences of easily understood and neutral material highliting both sides on this subject is also fine by me.However knowing that it is difficult to reach an agreement on the content is enough of a motive to delete it all together,unless of course there is a consecus on what the content will be.

Hi all, here is the few sencences version I am going to add just below the climatological table without creating new sections. The sentences belonging to the same field of evidence that has been dropped up to now are there, so I feel that block will not survive too long.

The city of Athens is affected by a strong urban heat island effect,^[1]^[2] inflating its temperatures compared to the surrounding rural areas.^[3]^[4]^[5]^[6]^[7] Such heat island caused by human activity has detrimental effects on energy usage, cooling expenditure,^[8]^[9] and health.^[10] The urban heat island of Athens has been found responsible also for alterations of the climatological time-series of Athens due to its impact on the temperatures and the temperatures trends recorded by some meteorological stations of the city including the National Observatory of Athens-Thiseio and the HNMS Nea Philadelphia weather station.^[11]^[12]^[13]^[14]^[15]^[16]

Amending (talk) 09:48, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Please do not refer to other editors as vandals per our policy of WP:CIVIL. It is unacceptable. I would ask you to rephrase and remove the verb "vandalize" above. Also please consult WP:NPA our No personal attacks policy which clearly states that you must comment on content not on contributors. Presently I am not informed about the validity of your claims above, so I will not comment on the suggested passage. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 15:25, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

ok done —Preceding unsigned comment added by Amending (talk • contribs) 15:34, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Thank you very much. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 15:55, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

New two-lines version of Athens UHI (and it is in practice the first one, the one which had been fought by the Katsoulist & Theoharatos 1985 article with the graphs drawn by hand, despite the existing overwhelming latter scientific evidence, originating the contents escalation): The city of Athens is affected by a strong urban heat island effect which is caused by human activity,^[17]^[18] inflating its temperatures compared to the surrounding rural areas,^[19]^[20]^[21]^[22]^[23] that has detrimental effects on energy usage, expenditure for cooling,^[24]^[25] and health.^[26] The urban heat island of the city has been found responsible also for alterations upwards of the climatological temperature time-series of Athens due to its impact on the temperatures and the temperatures trends recorded by some meteorological stations of the city including the National Observatory of Athens-Thiseio.^[27]^[28]^[29]^[30]^[31]^[32]

How long is it going to last? Amending (talk) 17:54, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Not very long Amending.The reason is simple the version is not agreed.So BEFORE posting it we need to reach an agreement.Firstly the term strong UHI needs to go since it is a generic assumption coming from one study while at the same time you have not included THE OTHER SIDE with Livada and Theoharatos who mention that the National Garden does not have UHI and that Thiseio has exactly the same means from 1860 era.So BEFORE posting it you need to agree the content with me.How clear is that?? Here is my version

The city of Athens is affected by the urban heat island effect in some areas which is caused by human activity,[26][27] inflating its temperatures compared to the surrounding rural areas,[28][29][30][31] that has detrimental effects on energy usage, expenditure for cooling,[32][33] and health.[34] The urban heat island of the city has been found partially responsible also for alterations of the climatological temperature time-series of specific Athens meteorological stations due to its impact on the temperatures and the temperatures trends recorded by some meteorological stations. [35][36][37][38][39].On the other hand specific meteorological stations such as the National Garden station and Thiseio meteorological station are less affected or do not experience the urban heat island [40]..[41]

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Weatherextremes (talk • contribs) 21:52, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't want to take a position on the content here, but as a suggestion, as this is an overview article, the wording here should reflect that. I don't think the typical reader of this article is going to care about which weather station shows what or whether a climatological series has been affected. What is of interest for the purpose here is some rough estimate of the magnitude, perhaps based on a review article from a jounral or specialist publication; some indication of whether the UHI effect is greater or less in Athens than in comparable cities; and a discussion of the implications for public health as temperature extremes are exacerbated by the effect. The gory details can go in the new section of the Urban heat island article (and eventually maybe a stand-alone article) and linked from here as a "further reading" template. Franamax (talk) 22:59, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

The Thiseio station is an institution with a long story in Athens and for many it is the reference station for the city. In my opinion specifying about it is important. Quantifications may lead into expanding details and I do not feel to reccomend that. I have done it in order to contrast some diversive and attempt to minimize but it is difficult to explain readers that +3 in minimum temperatures (Katsoulis & Theoharatos 1985) and +1 in maximum temperatures (Philandras & Nastos 2002) do not mean +1,5°C for all the year; the topic is complex. However these are estimates: an inflation of 0.3/0.4°C in mean temperatures from 1970 to mid-1990's, and then the effect seems stable. Approximately +3°C in average in minimum temperatures (Katsoulis and Theoharatos 1985) and +2 in spring and summer but less in other parts of the year for Philandras & Nastos (2002). Athens NOA is one of the longest climatological series and attributing it a scalar when the UHI effect is intimately dynamic would oversimplify. Not easy to say in 3 words. For this reason I suggested to simply say that there is some bias upwards, what is well known and documented Amending (talk) 23:57, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Basically those are comparative studies that need to be done to specifically indicate weather Athens has a UHI or not greater or less than other cities.The ovegeneralization for the climate of the Athens basin (which is one of the most complex in the world) should be avoided.So what I am suggesting is that the exceptions of specific areas that are less or not affected should remain since it gives a neutral position.Very difficult however to reach a conclusion comparativelly (ie Madrid,Rome,etc) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Weatherextremes (talk • contribs) 03:31, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Also I dont see the reason for an Athens case article to be inserted in the urban heat island.There is no other city over there and I dont see why Athens should be so special and i take it the UHI is stydied all over the world in much bigger cities like London,N.York etc.In any case 2-3 very generic lines should remain here and not academic review style analysis etc.

What happens in Urban heat island does not matter here. The paragraph there is (was) a good piece of information providing readers of a specialized topic (UHI) with an opportunity to learn about an exemplary case of UHI that has been extensively and intensively studied by a fragment that fully matches the rest of the article but was effectively too much detailed for a general article like Athens. I am sure that UHI readers would appreciate a lot a literature review paragraph written by you about the UHI of any city, for instance Sydney or Copenhagen or Domodossola. I am also sure that readers from New York or Skipton will not feel discriminated against for not having an article on their heat island on Wikipedia and will not hate Athens for this privilege but will learn about facts, methods, lines of research and existing publications and journals from it. Each one of us uses is time and effert for free to put ideas, reasoning and reference together. Every good contribution is appreciated. Amending (talk) 04:09, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

You forgot signing, Weatherextremes

By the way, of course I do not reply to that attempt to shift the discussion from the article and contents. If personal adversion or mysterious conspiracies are perceived, personal talk page should be used to handle them. Notice that any violation of rules about personal attacks and politeness would be repressed in the maximum possible extent. Amending (talk) 12:39, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Replies about Weatherextreme points against the two-sentences fragment about Athens UHI

Getting back to Weatherextreme points regarding the two sentences about UHI I add here but I am responding to Weatherextremes. "So BEFORE posting it you need to agree the content with me.How clear is that??". Please notice that I can require you to agree with me in every topic as well, so consider rationally what and how you ask agreement. Unreasonable positions would motive me to shift away from the tit for tat attitude towards a less cooperative interaction strategy. Please adopt also a polite use of capital letters.

After this premise, I'll refer to this edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Athens&action=historysubmit&diff=397754557&oldid=397710623.

That "strong" is supported by peer-review academic reference. Precisely it is quoted from peer-reviw academic reference before you dropped it. UHI just varies in intensity over the city surface but scientists summarize it by the term "strong".

What you say about Katsoulis & Theoharatos against strong heat island effect is wrong. First, they do not control for general synoptic conditions and worldwide or regional anomalies. It is obvious that temperature varies not only as an effect of UHI but also for natural environment temperature change in time. Katsoulis and Theoharatos (1985) never say "The means in early 1980's are the same of 1860's and then there is not UHI". They say and repeat that UHI is detected instead. Moreover they analyze the temperature series by statistical tools available at the time of their job. Second, notice that Repapis at al. (2007) list the Katsoulis & Theoharatos paper in reference, and they cite them; but Repapis at al. (2007) detect and report UHI, and they report UHI in mean temperatures. Repapis et al. (2007) feel their findings contrasting with Katsoulis & Theoharatos stronger than those of their predecessors (or they feel they detect what Katsoulis & Theoharatos could not detect due to methodological limitations in mid-1980's), and so based on their own knowledge and judgement they override their respected predecessors. Latter research findigs override earlier research findings; Katsoulis and Theoharatos (1985) are not a dogma. Science goes on and discovers new things. More recent work has gone beyond Katsoulis and Theoharatos (1985). Almost all research articles about Athens UHI mention Katsoulis and Theoharatos (1985) and list it in references, and this does not prevent them from having different results (especially in maximum temperatures). Repapis et al. (2007) have several articles in reference and nevertheless they say that Athens is characterized by a strong UHI.

Livada et al. (2002) against strong heat island effect etc. The Authors found UHI in most places they tested, not only in some. All the stations they used show a overall mean 1°C (or more) higher than the station at the National Garden, which is not rural but in the city centre. All the stations they use show overall mean >=1°C higher than a urban park in the centre of a 4 million inhabitants city. An obvious limitation of that study is that they have not reference rural stations. As the operative definition of UHI is the difference of temperature between rural and urban areas, no UHI absence can be detected if not by finding a unsignificant or zero difference between urban and rural areas; and Livada et al did not use rural data at all: only urban and suburban. Moreover you contend "strong" UHI based on Livada et al. Interestingly, the article I quote (Giannakopoulos et al 2010) lists Livada et al (2002) in references, and it refers Livada et al (2002) a few lines below saying that previous studies fond in Athens a "pronounced" urban heat island. Here again the authors feel to override earlier research. You should criticize them rather the acceptance of their specialized opinion. Scientific peer review published material did so. Giannakopoulos et al 2010 clearly know Livada et al 2002 and simply override them. Interestingly, another few lines below the "strong heat island effect" one, a 2006 paper co-autored by Katsoulis (the one of Katsoulis and Theoharatos who that is supposed not to find UHI because the means are the same in 1860's and 1980's) is referred for the concept that past studies revealed that Athens has a pronounced UHI. Giannakopoulos et al 2010 know Livada et al (2001) and Katsoulis and Theoharatos, and they decide to say "strong" urban heat island. "Strong" urban heat island is supported by contemporary scientific researchers.

Other comments on your version. The "inflating" term was reasonable, when "altering" seems to suggest unprecise or unknown directions of the effect (maybe underestimation). But referenced peer-review scientific findings updated to may 2010 say that the measured temperatures inside Athens UHI are overall higher than those outside, and we have such publications documenting overal inflation of minimum (Katsoulis and Theoharatos 1985, Katsoulis 1987) maximum and mean temperatures (Philandras et al., Nastos, others) and satellite measures showing the city warmer (not cooler or alterated) than the countryside. So I keep "inflating" or propose "increasing" or equivalents. The direction of UHI effect on temperature measures in Athens reported by researchers is one: up. So inflating is OK and altering is not OK. Other words indicating a rise of temperature may be OK as well, and the term which is compatible with interpretations like "erratic changes", "unclear changes", "temperature reduction" are all not OK.

I agree on the "partially responsible for ...". Other factors (such as measurement methodologies, instruments, locations, etc) introduce alterations in time series as well, not only UHI. "Partially" is OK. I agree also for "specific" stations in principle, but the specification is unuseful as few words ahead it is specified "due to its impact on the temperatures and the temperatures trends recorded by some meteorological stations". The sentence in my opinion was already OK, the proposed change is like applying socks to the legs of the chairs.

So I suggest to find the words for saying that UHI magnitude varies in space and time inside Athens in order to acknolewlege this established scientific finding, but more details would inflate the text too much as things are complex as a recent article shows (Zoulia, Santamouris and Dimoudi 2009, "Monitoring the effect of urban green areas on the heat island in Athens", Envir Monit Asses, 156, 275-292). Another interesting feature of Zoulia, Santamouris and Dimoudi (2009) paper is that they also apply formal statistical test to Livad et Al. (2002) data that statistically supports the conclusion that the National Garden is actually cooler than other urban areas.

The last block is not acceptable. No comparative research indicating that Thiseio is less affected or not affected by UHI is mentioned and no comparative tems are provided. Less than what? Less than the Garden? Less than suburbs? It is POV. Moreover matching Thiseio with the National Garden is potentially misleading because readers may be leat to believe that results applying for the National Garden apply for Thiseio, and this is undocumented and unreferenced. Another interesting content of Zoulia, Santamouris and Dimoudi (2009) paper is that they tested the temperature differences between the National Garden and the immediate surrounding areas by formal statistical test and found no significant effect of the Garden in cooling these immediate surrounding areas (page 290, paragraph "Concluding remarks"). This means that the argoument that Thiseio is next to the National Garden and hence has less or maybe it has not UHI is invalid, as these authors argue that proximity with the Garden has not systematic effect of protection agains urban heat island. Systematic academic evidences and references already exist about the UHI impact on the Thiseio temperatures time series, and the allusion that Thiseio can have temperature patterns resembling the National Garden is undocumented. I ask to change the sentence with a fixed separation between National Garden (that is less affected) and Thiseio (that is affected and we do not know how much compared to the city - but only +3 in minimums, +2/0 in maximum, 0.4 in means compared to rural areas). The UHI effect over Thiseio is known, documented and quantified. The cooler Garden temperatures are known and documented. And these are independent findings. The absence of UHI effects on Thiseio because of the proximity of the National Garden should not be suggested, implied or alluded.

Well. All the points and edits have their reply. In general, all substantive points get replied that estblished scientific finding exist against them, published by academic authors in peer-review journal and/or academic conference presentations, and that no clues of contemporary research supporting the mentioned criticism is invoked up to now. I'll suggest a version acknowledging some minor changes but respecting and reflecting the overwhelming academic reference and scientific findings we have at hand. The points are that 1) Athens has a strong UHI effect impacting its environment and its population with effects over economy, quality of life, and health, but in some parks the UHI effect is less intense. 2) such UHI impacts also the temperature time series of some weather stations of Athens (inflating them) such as the National Observatory of Athens at Thiseio. I'll work around a better wording and small details. Very good for providing readers with an insight about this facet of Athens climate earning increasing importance in urban climatology. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Amending (talk • contribs) 13:46, 20 November 2010 (UTC) Amending (talk) 13:56, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Not exactly

Firstly endless academic revew will not do the trick in Wikipedia,while it shows critical thinking you might want to take up the issue with the NOA administration.Dr Founda is very helpful and she can direct you towards further reasearch on the Thiseio UHI.The strong UHI in Athens comes from one study and cannot be adopted.I was clear that both Livada and Katsoulis show that the UHI of Athens is NOT uniform.Again Livada show that the Thiseio station is classed as suburban and follows the National Garden patterns.I dont know what you are on about but it is explicit that suburban stations follow a next to zero UHI effect according to Livada.Methodology and stats are there to see for everyone.This is explicit in the article.Thus this clear exception needs to remain so it will stress the non uniformity.You might want to email Livada on the issue however both sides should be there and adopted.Thus I must insist that the content remains as is.

Now about Katsoulis 1985 ,I mean we have been through this like FOR EVER in your Italian forum Borat.The quote is clear and they say however examination of the mean maximum and mean temperatures show that the urban heat island is almost eliminated. I mean come on now I have produced this quote like 10 times in your Italian forum and you keep on ignoring it.This reflects the other side within their own article.As I said endless academic review wont do the trick.If you are inclined to take up research on Thiseio and Athens UHI that is fine,non the less the crutial factor is the fact that Athens as the warmest city in Europe during the summer on average seems to me the argument that you really want to attack. In terms wording altering I guess could be changed however the Zerefos paper mentions and explicit artificial effect on Thiseio due to change of equipment from the mid 90's onwards and adopts the view that it can not be concluded that either the UHI or the GW effect can be considered the main reasons for this.

We could also adopt something along the lines areas protected by greenery even at the very centre of Athens seem to not be affected by the UHI and both the National Gardens and Thiseio are protected by greenery and both classed as suburban as Livada points out.

And finally, I mean NOTHING but NOTHING shows an increasing momentum on Athens uhi in climatology .This seems totally random assumption so that you will just shift the attention from Athens being Europe's warmest area during the summer on average by implying that Athens is like the world champion of uhi.I mean come on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Weatherextremes (talk • contribs) 15:57, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

I've semi-protected the article for one week now to keep the IP input down again. The two protagonists wouls be well advised to start focussing on areas of agreement if they wish to continue editing at this site. Please work constructively instead of endlessly rehashing arguments brought from elsewhere. Franamax (talk) 08:46, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Responding Weatherextremes about UHI in Athens article

I find strange the rejection of so massive systematic academic evidences and invoking an unofficial verbal opinion instead. No, I am not asking Dr. Founda any opinion about. Overwhelming scientific evidences already exist. It is matter of acknowledging that massive scientific evidence sometimes are stronger than ones' POV and individually taking fixed positions against choral scientific findings is questionable in rationality.

The NOA weather station at Thiseio according to scientific findings is once again found affected by the strong UHI of Athens as it has been demonstrated by several scientists. Here is another study finding that: Livada I., Niachou K., and Santamouris M. (2005). The impact of wind on air temperature distribution in Athens and in Santorini. International Conference "Passive and Low Energy Cooling for the Built Environment", May 2005, Santorini, Greece. Authors study hourly air temperature and wind speed data for the period June 2004-September 2004 of the National Observatory of Athens, Hellinikon and Santorini.

Page 134 (here we have also a error in NOA altitude): "In spite of the fact that NOA is placed in an area with relative vegetation, on the top of a 417 meter high hill, its position near the centre of Athens makes it exposed to the heat island effect (Livada et al., 2002)."

Hence, being in the centre of Athens makes this station virtually exposed to the strong UHI of Athens, and they check if this actually happens, while being next to the National Garden is not mentioned as a potential protection from UHI. Two authors (Livada and Santamouris) are the same of the Livada et al. (2002) paper, and in this paper they do not believe what Weatherextremes believes, that being Thiseio next to the National Garden may protect it from the strong urban heat island of Athens. They say instead that being in the centre of Athens threatens the station with UHI effect. Weatherextremes respectable POV is not supported by the scientists that are invoked to support it.

Lets go on with the results of the study: page 136-137. "From the study of Dh(26) in three meteorological stations in Athens and Santorini, the heat island effect is evident in the centre of Athens [...] Finally, for NOA station near the centre of Athens, the heat island effect overrides the influence of wind speed during the 24-hour period and this is mostly obvserved for lower wind speeds [...]".

So for these Authors the NOA station in their summertime study is affected by the strong urban heat island of Athens with variable intensities depending on the wind speed. These authors do not support Weatherextremes' respectable POV that being next to the National Garden protects Thiseio from the strong urban heat island effect of Athens (they say instead, that being NOA near the city centre exposes it to UHI) and they say that NOA is affected by UHI, which is another (among serial) scientific result contrasting with Weatherextremes respectable POV.

Here is the full text of the article: http://www.inive.org/members_area/medias/pdf/Inive%5Cpalenc%5C2005%5CLivada.pdf

About the parks in Athens and the term "strong", here is another appreciable piece of information, given by Mat Santamouris, who is not a bad italian forum user trying to represent Athens as the world champion of UHI with the use of false references saying totally else, but a respected professor at the University of Athens and chief editor of the academic peer-review journal Advances in Building Energy instead:

Santamouris M. (2007). "Heat Island Research in Europe: The State of The Art". Advances in Building Energy Research, Vol 1, pp. 123-150. page 130: "Santamouris (2001) reports measurements of heat island in the Greather Athens area, Greece. Almost 30 surface temperature stations were used and measurements taken on an hourly basis for many years. It is reported that maximum heat island intensity in the central area is around 16°C, with a mean value for the larger central zone being 12°C. Also, absolute maximum temperatures in the central area are close to 15°C higher than in the suburban areas, while absolute minimum temperatures are up to 3°C higher in the centre. It was also found that heat island intensity in the central Athens park area is 6.1°C while the heat island intensity of nearby located stations is 10°C."

True, Santamouris words seem to depict a sort of UHI world champion, with 12°C mean UHI in the centre and 6°C UHI intensity even in the central Athens park. When Authors indicate the UHI of Athens as "strong" they perhaps refer to these findings of Santamouris. But in my opinion Santamouris did not want to claim a champion crown for Athens; he simply reports results of a massive scientific investigation that I do not reccommend to squelch. Moreover in other parts of the article he reports about Turkish cities. I did not compare systematically the figures provided in that part with attention but, I guess, maybe some Turkish city beats Athens in UHI mean or maximum intensity.

Just few lines below Santamouris mentions the Livada et al (2002) paper (he co-authored) specifying seasonal and territorial variations in UHI, and another few lines below s/he reports the results of Mihalakakou et al (2002) indicating that the strong UHI of Athens is not fixed but varies according to synoptic conditions and may also fall to zero with intense northern winds. That's interesting. Notice that Katsoulis and Theoharatos (1985) report a +3°C effect on minimum temperatures as a overall mean result. It would be interesting to re-compute their mean UHI excluding the days with strong northern winds.

Lets go on: pp. 140-141: "Santamouris (2001) also reveals the findings of research using multi-year temperature measurements taken in two urban parks in Athens. They show that both parks have almost 40% less cooling degree hours than in other surrounding urban stations. The parks also present the lowest recorded absolute minimum temperatures of all the stations. However, during daytime the absolute temperature inside the park was higher than at the suburban reference station."

So being in a park or next to a park is not always a 100% protection against UHI. Parks are cooler than surrounding urban areas but not always cooler than suburban areas and they can be warmer in daytime.

Here is the link for the article: http://books.google.it/books?hl=it&lr=&id=My5zKeqRe2MC&oi=fnd&pg=PA123&dq=Advances+in+Building+Energy+++Research&ots=ce-bmtYjyQ&sig=KVqLzcY34HHii1AWs8Ql-W5IJ9o#v=onepage&q&f=false (some pages will be missing). I strongly reccommend this extensive article summarizing the state of the art to readers who are interested in UHI research, it is very good and helps also unspecialized readers in understanding and framing the topic.

Final, mentions and/or allusions that the NOA station is actually or potentially unaffected by the strong urban heat island of Athens followed by references to scientific studies saying the contrary are too much misleading and may not be morally accepted. I invoke again a fixed separation between mentioning the National Garden and mentioning eventually the Thiseio weather station. The UHI effect on the Thiseio station is overdocumented and overreferenced and has been demonstrated by several scientists. The actual formulation allows for the interpretation that Thiseio is potentially not affected by UHI, a thing that is falsified by systematic scientific findings, showing that Thiseio is affected by UHI.

I propose the following formulation for the whole paragraph (I'll care the reference later, here in Talk we can't even see them).

The city of Athens is affected by the urban heat island effect, which is caused by human activity, altering upwards its temperatures compared to the surrounding rural areas, that has detrimental effects on energy usage, expenditure for cooling, and health. Such urban heat island effect is variable between hours of the day, between seasons and as a consequence of synoptic conditions, with conditions like summertime high pressure and calm wind favouring intense affection, while strong northern winds lead it to fall to zero. Such effect is also variable between parts of the city, with smaller effects in eastern parts and even no effect in some urban parks like the National Garden. The urban heat island of the city has been found partially responsible also for alterations of the climatological temperature time-series of some meteorological stations of the city like the National Observatory of Athens-THiseio due to its effect of inflating the temperatures recorded and altering upwards the temperature trends.

Let's examine it sentence by sentence. "The city of Athens is affected by the urban heat island effect". No "strong" for now. I am investigating in order to track the origin of that "strong" and eventually I'll enter it again if top journal authors like Santamouris still use it in the last years. I have another case of "Athens is characterized by a strong heat island effect" sentence in peer-review publication but I can't retrieve it now and I am not sure Santamouris or Livada are among Authors.

"which is caused by human activity, altering upwards its temperatures compared to the surrounding rural areas, that has detrimental effects on energy usage, expenditure for cooling, and health.". The alterations in the temperatures are explicitally said "upwards", no unconclusive views should be suggested by the wording. "Upwards" is overdocumented as an effect over mean temperatures in the world and in Athens. I'll find better references for the effects over health.

"Such urban heat island effect is variable between hours of the day, between seasons and as a consequence of synoptic conditions, with conditions like summertime high pressure and calm wind favouring intense affection, while strong northern winds lead it to fall to zero.". Here the non-homogeneity of the UHI along the year is acknowledged, the non-homogeneity of the UHI as an affect of synoptic conditions is acknowledged (no UHI with northern wind, strong UHI with summertime high pressue and calm or scarce winds).

"Such effect is also variable between parts of the city, with smaller effects in eastern parts and even no effect in some urban parks like the National Garden". Here non-homogeneity of the UHI in space is acknowledged (East and parks perform better, people is told they will feel better in the East and in the parks especially the National Garden)

The urban heat island of the city has been found partially responsible also for alterations of the climatological temperature time-series of some meteorological stations of the city like the National Observatory of Athens-THiseio due to its effect of inflating the temperatures recorded and altering upwards the temperature trends.. Here Thiseio and National Garden confusion is eliminated. The overwhelming evidence of UHI effects over the temperature record of Athens most important weather station at Thiseio is acknowledged and no underpants or distractors or fake moustaches are applied to such effect: it is temperature inflation as several scientist have documented. It is acknowledged that UHI is only one drive of such mean temperatures change as changing instruments and locations do have confounding effects as well.

Opinions? Amending (talk) 13:49, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Quick add. There is no official WMO records office recognizing this, but based on data reported by Santamouris, at the best of our knowledge the UHI World Champion in antropogenetic heat is Manhattan (New York City) and not Athens. Athens is not even in the top-12. See http://www.fire-italia.it/gestione_energia/gestione3-01.pdf page 7, table 2. Amending (talk) 15:42, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

UHI: A question for Weatherextremes

Is the heart of your argument that the wording should make clear that the NOA station at Thiseio is not exposed to a full-power heat island but just to a reduced one that is mitigated by vegetation?

If this is the core of your point, I agree 100% with this, of course: in fact Santamouris (2001) reports a mean 12°C UHI for the "UHI-est" parts of Athens and 6°C for the central Park. If we take the recent means of stations outside the centre of Athens of, say, 17-19°C like Elefsina, Helliniko or Tatoi, under the full-UHI hypothesis we should expect for NOA-Thiseio figures of yearly means like 29-31°C, resembling rural Bangkok, because of UHI, and this is obviously not the case. If we take a central-Athens-park-hypothesis according to Santamouris' findings based on several years of data (6°C), we should expect for NOA-Thiseio means close to 23-25°C, and this is again not the case, as last year Thiseio "scored" 18.9°C. I do not need academics writing it on a peer-review paper to quote, I am very well able to compute it by myself: since 19 is far smaller than 23-25 when the differences are Celsius degrees, then I suggest that Thiseio is not exposed to maximum UHI (10°C? 12°C?) but just to an attenuated one. Also the Scholars detecting the UHI effect based on urban-rural long time-series comparisons indicate figures of 0.3/0.4°C mean impact over the means for the 1970's-1990's period. I can also retrive explicit academic reference mentioning NOA-Thiseio for that, because if the one who says that is me or you it is original research and may not be reported; but if it is Livada and Santamouris, perhaps the concept is acceptable.

So the problem would be how to phrase this in compact terms and without misleading ambiguities... Amending (talk) 18:13, 21 November 2010 (UTC))

The point is that 2 academics show Thiseio non affected leaving aside endless academic reviews

So in that sense I partially agree on your passage apart from the fact that Thiseio should be down as the exception of Athens UHI.Again debating the Thiseio exact UHI is a task of academics to carry on so there is no real answer in your question.My version is the one already in the article.However I could go for something else instead of altering in the passage.Definitelly Thiseio being there as an example of Athens UHI,should not be there at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Weatherextremes (talk • contribs) 18:22, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Also I was thinking that a paragraph seems too long as we discussed earlier.The initial planning of 2-3 senteces seems very good. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Weatherextremes (talk • contribs) 20:56, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Urban Heat Island deletion

OK, I have looked at various articles for the biggest cities in the world in Wikipedia.New York,London,Moscow,Tokyo,etc.No Wikipedia article has a section for UHI.Since the motives for the article is mainly polemics from meteorological forums with a different user, I have decided to delete the UHI section.Various studies on UHI of different cities have been made and I dont see them have this subsection in their wiki article.I have also erased all the polemics in the discussion section around the warm climatology of Athens

See Borat

This is exactly the problem.I have notified Faranax in his personal talk page of the exact nature of the friction between you and me.I have expressed my opinion that the UHI of Athens is used as a vehicle to start a debate on Athens which stems from your Italian forum.I have detailed our personal history and have explained why Athens is no different to any big city in terms of UHI.I believe that this continuous effort to focus just on Athens UHI has to do only with the fact that it has been clearly shown by me in most European meteorological forums that Athens is by far the warmest city in Europe during the summer on average according to the WMO.While I do understand that this might dishearten you and that you have your objections I also believe that Wikipedia is not the place for a non stop debate.

While it is nice to see your UHI Athens article(which is mostly onsided and focusing on Athens being like the international champion of the UHI) it would be even nicer to see your exact dedication like Athens for the UHI of another city.What do you think?

UHI: but that version is misleading

Sorry, this is the last long entry, I will shorten next.

That version is misleading for the reasons I have illustrated in detail. Matching that way the National Garden and Thiseio is compatible with the concept that Thiseio is unaffected at all by UHI, a thing that is falsified by published research on academic journals and conference proceedings. No-UHI in Thiseio is your respectable POV but choirs of scientific authors say the contrary in scientific journals and conference proceedings. My next step will be investigating among Wikipedia administrator what I can do in order to amend that unfortunate sentence implying that Thiseio may be unaffected by UHI and reporting in reference articles and authors saying actually the contrary.

In fact, authors saying that Thiseio is affected by UHI are referred to for the implied concept that Thiseio may be unaffected by UHI, and this good faith imprecision is quite surprising and deserves to be corrected. Moreover further academic evidences that Thiseio is affected by UHI are disregarded and most surprisingly the disregarded evidences come from the same authors that are invoked to support the idea that Thiseio can be unaffected by UHI.

This is contesting the will of the Scientists by the use of laughable arguments that in the 1985 article with the graphs drawn by hand they forgot writing "Thiseio" and in 1996-1998 they classified a datalogger at the National Garden as suburban when further evidence based on the same data show that one step outside that garden the temperature immediately increase and the National Garden does not protect its surrounding areas. And notice that UHI is known to operate also in suburban areas (not only in urban), see Gartland L. (2008). "Heat Islands. Understanding and Mitigating Heat in Urban Areas, London, Earthscan, page 2: "Urban and suburban areas have long been observed to have heat island, a 'reverse oasis' where air and surface temperatures are hotter than their rural surroundings." http://books.google.it/books?id=wokqNDknbLIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=heat+islands+understanding+and+mitigating+heat+in+urban+areas&source=bl&ots=cgkjPqimTI&sig=iXr9-TjxRp9H55yg7nJ7JSrepPs&hl=it&ei=VjbpTJ_BN4HqOdn3tYgK&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false .

Authors saying that Thiseio is affected by UHI may not be used to suggest that Thiseio may be unaffected by UHI morally: I strongly oppose this good faith misuse of reference.

But have you read the load of references for the UHI impact on NOA Thiseio that the article has? Most are still there. Just click, download the papers and read. A paper that finds UHI effect over NOA-Thiseio means is quoted here just above, one of the sequence of papers saying that, and it is co-signed by some of the authors you invoke for lack of UHI effect in NOA-Thiseio means: Livada I., Niachou K., and Santamouris M. (2005). "The impact of wind on air temperature distribution in Athens and in Santorini". International Conference "Passive and Low Energy Cooling for the Built Environment", May 2005, Santorini, Greece. They say that they screened the behavior of the NOA-Thiseio station in summer and September 2004 and they found it affected by UHI.

Just a curiosity, you say that "Livada show that the Thiseio station is classed as suburban and follows the National Garden patterns.". Where did you get such idea? Do you refer to the paper Livada I., Santamouris M., Niachou K., Papanikolaou N., Mihalakakou G. (2002). "Determination of places in the great Athens area where the heat island effect is observed". Theoretical and Applied Climatology, 71, Numbers 3-4, 219-230? I agree that most probably station 1 is at Thiseio, but the authors never say that, and I have read the paper one hundred times. In fact, if they said that I had a further strong argument in favor of Thiseio affected by UHI: the station 1 despite of the higher altitude has a overall mean temperature which is 1.2°C higher than the National Garden and this is good evidence of urban heat island effect over Thiseio NOA station. 1.2°C is altitude equivalent of about 200 meters altitude difference... But the authors actually never say that the station 1 is at or is Thiseio, and so guessing that it is at Thiseio would be at the same time POV, original research, and an unproved guess. By the way, that station follows the pattern of Thiseio in the mean temperatures of the grouped months, not the pattern of the Garden.

Interestingly I have retrieved a 2010 paper co-authored by Livada and Santamouris confirming the principle that the the heat island of Athens is "strong": "Previous studies in Athens, Greece, based on data collected from 23 stations combined with measurements from mobile stations, have conﬁrmed the existence of a strong heat island (SANTAMOURIS et al., 2001)." The reference is Giannopoulou, K., Santamouris M., Livada I., Georgakis C., Caouris Y. (2010). "The Impact of Canyon Geometry on Intra Urban and Urban - Suburban Night Temperature Differences Under Warm Weather Conditions". Journal of Pure and Applied Geophysics, 167, p.p. 1433-1449. Just another shower in the inundation of references. But I am not insisting for entering the "strong" term in the fragment about UHI. Really the stuff would get "persecutory" while it should be neutrally descriptive.

Well, now I am KO. I'll read better your reply tomorrow, in order to interpret it properly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Amending (talk • contribs) 22:55, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

UHI: I dump the proposal of "Athens is characterized by ...

Some researchers in UHI really wrote that the city of Athens is characterized by a strong urban heat island effect. But I got persuaded that they actually wanted to mean "affected": one of the features of Athens is a strong urban heat island". I could say I am characterized by blue eyes when I mean my eyes are blue, it is one of my traits. I would not be not the only one with blue eyes (that do not distinguish me from others) and Athens is not the only city with a urban heat island. Perhaps Athens is characterized by the Pathenon or several other things, but UHI is a feature it has in common with most cities.

I ask the opinion of Greek native tongue wikipedia editors. Is it possible, in you opinion, that one thinks in Greek the equivalent of "Athens is affected by UHI", and translates it into English writing "Athens is characterized by UHI"? I do not know contemporary Greek but in my language such transformation would be possible (and likely to occour). "Parabola is characterized by a non-linear shape". Yes, parabola is non-linear, but parabola is not the only non-linear function. It just displays a non-linear shape like many other functions. So non-linearity is a feature, not a unique characterization. What do you think about? Amending (talk) 16:33, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Reference Verification for Climate section

I am trying to verify the reference for the statement "According to the National Observatory of Athens the average daytime maximum temperature in Thision (period 2001–2009) for the month of July is 35.1 °C (95.2 °F)" entered in 17th April 2010 h18:32 within an edit by the IP user 86.31.30.147 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Athens&direction=next&oldid=356637556#Climate http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Athens&action=historysubmit&diff=356638686&oldid=356456992 )

The reference provided is http://cirrus.meteo.noa.gr/forecast/bolam/index.htm

|title=National Observatory of Athens.Monthly bulletins
|accessdate=17 April 2010}}

that is a general weather page of the NOA website. One must click the "monthly bulletins" link and reach this webpage http://cirrus.meteo.noa.gr/forecast/bolam/index.htm?bulletins.htm~Content where a long list of montly bulletins in PDF format are found.

This way of providing a reference is sub-optimal: the readers should be given the specific bulletin where the aforementioned figure is reported. For instance, here we find the January 2010 bulletin: http://cirrus.meteo.noa.gr/forecast/deltio_noa012010.pdf, here we find the February 2010 bulletin http://cirrus.meteo.noa.gr/forecast/deltio_noa022010.pdf etcetera.

I have read all the bulletins one by one, up to April 2010 (when the reference was entered) with the aid of google-translator and I have not been able to find the statement that the average daytime maximum temperature in Thision for the period 2001-2009 is 35.1°C or a table reporting a similar figure indicating an equivalent assertion. Unfortunately google-translate does not handle PDF files perfectly and I can't read from Greek, so my verification may not be considered final.

I would be grateful to every editor mothertongue Greek willing to read the climatic bulletins from 2009 (all the year, located at http://cirrus.meteo.noa.gr/forecast/deltio_noa2009.pdf ) and following and to report if anywhere (and where) is said that the the average daytime maximum temperature in Thision (period 2001–2009) for the month of July is 35.1 °C (95.2 °F).

The reason why I ask this help is that I previously detected and removed some assertions that indicated these montly bulletins as references but once verified were found inaccurate (the bulletins did not say that at all). The same statement was soon re-entered with another reference, that I found wrong as well. Best regards. --Amending (talk) 22:17, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes it is

Calculated by those above data.Btw the Catenanuova reading goes as we are talking explicitly about the OFFICIAL EUROPEAN RECORD IN THIS ARTICLE ONLY and not about non official data from dubious stations that incite polemics.We have been through this —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.197.190.60 (talk) 02:06, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree. Especially when the Catenanuova reading is also served with a high dose of WP:SYNTH, edit-warring and WP:OR. Thank you. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 02:17, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

It is unclear what Catenanuova and the WMO European temperature record have to do with the monthly climatic bulletins and how they can impact the relationship between bulletins and 35.1°C, however if somewhere that average is said by them the refrence is fully OK. Having computed it from several distinct bulletins strictu sensu is original research but the main point is assessing that it is not a hoax. For me it is OK, it is possible to verify and a single source contains all the relevant data. I would suggest to add it to a footnote. --Amending (talk) 08:09, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

OK, I am there, I had not read that series of edits about the European record yet. Agitatow is right, who knows of climatic institutions knows that very well, but this is not the place to battle that. Maybe the topic is encyclopedic enough to make an article about to clarify, but I do not think so. All this however does not impact the relationship between climatic bulletins and 35.1°C. I ask about bulletins and overall mean and I'd like to be responded about it. And I have been. Best regards. --Amending (talk) 08:23, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Article of European Temp record re-entered

Why was this removed?Article re-entered,since its important to mention that WMO gives it officially to Athens.