Talk:Avatar (spacecraft)

Fair use rationale for File:Avatar rlv concept.jpg

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Renaming

The Avatar(rocket) need to be renamed as Avatar Reusable Launch Vehicle.Chanakyathegreat (talk) 05:30, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Do you have a source? If so, add it to the article as, on Wikipedia, WP:Anyone can edit. N2e (talk) 17:38, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Links

Link to Concept of AVATAR broken due to geocities being shut down. However a copy of the page resides in the Web Archive at this address: http://web.archive.org/web/20071013165131/http://www.geocities.com/spacetransport/spacecraft-avatar.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.134.36.65 (talk) 11:02, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Image tag

{{Reqphoto|aircraft and spacecraft}}

Since the article has a photo now, and it's a Creative Commons image, I have disabled the {{Reqphoto}} tag. If there are additional/better images needed, feel free to undo my actions. ^Avicenna_sis @ 05:22, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Update needed

THe article says that Currently DRDO plans to build and fly a scaled-down version of AVATAR, weighing just 3 tonnes at takeoff. The project is headed by Vikram Sarabhai Space Centre in Thiruvananthapuram. The mini AVATAR is to be built by a Hyderabad-based private company called CIM Technologies by 2010.. Did this happen? Has it been delayed? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 16:41, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, indeed. There are no sources supporting anything other than that the AVATAR was a lightly-funded concept development effort in the early 2000s. I have updated the lede, and requested sources to support many of the claims. N2e (talk) 17:35, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Merge with RLV Technology Development Program?

I would suggest merging this article with the RLV Technology Demonstration Programme article, which is mentioned in this article. Both articles are small enough to fit one within the other, and clearly relate to the same thing. (For the same reason, maybe merge with HEX.) Eventually the articles might become rich enough to split them out again, but for now it seems like more trouble than it's worth.

Thoughts? -- PaulxSA (talk) 14:10, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

@PaulxSA: They are not same thing. This article is confusing AVATAR(early concept) of DRDO with RLV-TD (active project of ISRO with hardware ready). And it makes no mention of Hypersonic Technology Demonstrator Vehicle or HSDTV of DRDO which is presumably a test bed for AVATAR, whereas RLV-TD is test bed for TSTO (verified). There is no such thing as "AVATAR RLV TSTO". This needs rewrite and many elements including visual references belong to RLV Technology Demonstration Programme. Some references are pointing to blogs instead of original sources which are still there online. Moreover no indication that TSTO and RLV-TD would be manned. --Ohsin (talk) 12:12, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

PaulxSA If you do the corrections, I will be your right-wing and will do some cleanup when done. BatteryIncluded (talk) 15:28, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

@PaulxSA: Struggling to edit.It'll take time meanwhile few good references.

Original article that broke news 'India unveils space plane'

In depth paper'Critical Factors in Conceptual Design and Techno-Economics of Reusable Spaceplaces' By Raghavan Gopalswami

Another paper 'The Spaceplane Equation' By Raghavan Gopalswami

Possible Uses 'An International Preliminary Feasibility Study on Space Based Solar Power Stations' By Raghavan Gopalaswami

'ISRO Achieves Breakthrough in Supersonic Combustion Technology' January 10, 2006

Reusable launch vehicle test put off

Image reference

RLV-TD missions,HSTDV and Scramjet ground tests could be mentioned as possible stepping stones. TSTO is completely unrelated as it is supposed to take-off vertically and its first stage lands horizontally and second vertically, Also it doesn't use air breathing tech (Will give reference but original link is dead at the moment).--Ohsin (talk) 23:34, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

@BatteryIncluded: Some cleanup/corrections done. Need to further separate it from TSTO-RLV. Ohsin (talk) 02:51, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

References

Really...?

"AVATAR (from "Aerobic Vehicle for Transatmospheric Hypersonic Aerospace TrAnspoRtation")". It sounds like somebody really wants the acronym to be "avatar". Is this official? I only ask because the source for this was a blog. - ^theWOLFchild 16:52, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, an Indian deity's name for an Indian spacecraft. BatteryIncluded (talk) 17:17, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

@BatteryIncluded: - From what I understand, their belief is that deities appear in the form of various avatars. It's not that one of their deities is actually named "Avatar". If they wanted to name a ship after a deity, they could've named it "Vishnu" or "Shiva", or any other of the List of Hindu deities (or find a bunch of words to create the acronym spelling out those names). Anyway, my point isn't so much about the name, but the silly length they went to just to have the acronynm spell "AVATAR" (like selecting 3 letters at random points from a single word; "TrAnspoRtation"). - ^theWOLFchild 00:21, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

AVATAR has no connection with ISRO.

A query in Indian Parliament clears it up for good."Feasibility study of project"AVATAR)" has been done by a group of scientists in DRDO. ISRO has no connection with the project." So I think this is enough to put this bundle of speculation to rest. Any mention of ISRO being associated with this concept needs to rectified and any speculative association of this space-plane concept with ISRO's RLV-TD and future TSTO-RLV should be corrected as well.

I suspect that the question in Indian Parliament in itself was result of this wiki article leave alone dozens of 'journalists' who based their articles on this!

On a side note I think this confusion arises from the fact that ISRO's RLV Project preliminary studies/projections, Unveiling of AVATAR concept and some budget allocation towards study of air-breathing launch vehicle concept(in 2005) all were done in early or mid 2000's that could've lead to some misassociations.

Ohsin (talk) 05:28, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for that document. So, the DRDO (Defence Research and Development Organization) is behind AVATAR. Who is doing the scaled prototype called 'Reusable Launch Vehicle-Technology Demonstrator' (RLV-TD)? ISRO? Are they completely unrelated? Thanks, BatteryIncluded (talk) 14:59, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

I am deleting all mentions of RLV and will move those to the ISRO's RLV article when finished. BatteryIncluded (talk) 15:26, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

@BatteryIncluded: RLV-TD is ISRO project. And they say it is "is a series of technology demonstration missions that have been considered as a first step towards realizing a Two Stage To Orbit (TSTO) fully re-usable vehicle". RLV-TD appears to be unrelated to AVATAR and I could find nothing that was official or reliable and associated AVATAR to ISRO. Also both agencies have their own prototypes. DRDO has Hypersonic Technology Demonstrator Vehicle or HSTDV and their presentations/posters show renderings of various space-plane concepts including AVATAR but I am not certain if it something in active development. Also noteworthy is ISRO being a civilian agency maintains a distance from DRDO. The man behind AVATAR Hyperplane in fact said "ISRO has taken up a programme to develop a RLV (reusable launch vehicle) Technology Demonstrator somewhat on the lines of Japan's Hope concept." HOPE-X was a series of experiments similar to RLV-TD done by Japan. Thank you for your work. Ohsin (talk) 20:48, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

In retrospective, I guess I thought they were cooperating agencies. I am glad you figured it out. Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 03:49, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Although the concepts and testing seem to be done by different Indian departments (http://dos.gov.in/sites/default/files/USQ251.pdf) there is no doubt now the RLV-TD is the technology test-bed for Avatar (spacecraft):

• http://www.spaceflightinsider.com/organizations/isro/india-launch-reusable-spaceplane-may/
• http://www.techtimes.com/articles/120115/20160102/isros-reusable-launch-vehicle-set-for-2016-trial.htm
• https://newatlas.com/india-spaceplane-launch-delay/41087/
• https://www.rt.com/news/344057-india-space-shuttle-test/
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDLjdH_9T8g by the Indian Defense News

We may have to update the articles accordingly. BatteryIncluded (talk) 16:03, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

The question in Parliament was result of that false wiki entry that has spawned flurry of flawed and jingoistic articles since mid 2000s! Do not start that train again! Stick to official material. ISRO's project is different and its Winged TSTO concept has no air breathing component to it. Ohsin (talk) 00:56, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

I doubt that the Indian Defense News and SpaceFlightInsider get their sources from Wikipedia (2017). But I will leave it be for now. Thanks. BatteryIncluded (talk) 05:11, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

Sorry but citation is of a random Youtube video of extremely low quality (I speak the language it is in) and what does 'Indian Defence News' really means here? It is extremely generic name and there are numerous such defence related websites. For example a blog http://www.indiandefencenews.org/ an individual run website http://indiandefencenews.in/about/ and then this http://www.indiandefensenews.in/p/about.html and so on. SpaceFlightInsider dropped the ball there and is very likely basing that on reports from Indian media, if you can, please contact them and seek clarification. Ohsin (talk) 05:50, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

Take look at Page 21 of this newsletter by The Aeronautical Society of India, Hyderabad. It has few details on AVATAR and the eminent scientist who wrote this and came up with concept seems to believe in Ancient aircrafts as well... anyways it is notable that work on it goes back to 1980's and since it has air breathing component to it it is fundamentally separate from winged TSTO concept with bi-propellant fly back booster and upper stage. So that settles any speculative overlap I hope. Meanwhile I have sent few emails around to publishers who are carrying speculative information as facts like this one http://www.spsmai.com/experts-speak/?id=111&q=ISROs-AVATAR-making-India-proud-again Ohsin (talk) 03:50, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

References

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2016 test flight may be confusion with the RLV

I can't find anything about a 2016 test flight of the Avatar but there was a 2016 test flight of the RLV, see Hypersonic Flight Experiment. I suggest we just delete that section with the citation needed about first test flight in 2016 and eventual flight in 2025. It may be a confusion with the RLV which if I understand right is a two stage to orbit and not air breathing or able to fly to orbit from a runway. So it's a different project. Robert Walker (talk) 23:59, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

Yes Robert that is the problem! It seems few folks just desperately want to mix AVATAR storyline to very real RLV-TD. RLV-TD program envisages a series of test flights and for HEX the stack had a solid booster (with large control fins) and a winged TDV or technology Development Vehicle on top. In future though TDV would sport a scramjet engine attached to its underbelly for 'SPEX' test flight. ISRO's Scramjet development program so far had ATV D01 and D02 test flights. ATV-D02 flight tested a sub-scaled scramjet engine with 2 kN thrust. ISRO's winged TSTO concept was simply called 'RLV TSTO' in official presentation slides and never AVATAR, this mix-up misinformation with hardly any facts backing it is creation of lazy media reports and overzealous fans. Ohsin (talk) 08:50, 3 February 2018 (UTC)