Talk:Baltimore Skipjacks

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GA Review[edit]

NOMINATION WITHDRAWN
Withdrawn by nominator

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


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Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Baltimore Skipjacks/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Lee Vilenski (talk · contribs) 13:17, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]


Hello, I am planning on reviewing this article for GA Status, over the next couple of days. Thank you for nominating the article for GA status. I hope I will learn some new information, and that my feedback is helpful.

If nominators or editors could refrain from updating the particular section that I am updating until it is complete, I would appreciate it to remove a edit conflict. Please address concerns in the section that has been completed above (If I've raised concerns up to references, feel free to comment on things like the lede.)

I generally provide an overview of things I read through the article on a first glance. Then do a thorough sweep of the article after the feedback is addressed. After this, I will present the pass/failure. I will use strikethrough tags when concerns are met. Even if something is obvious why my concern is met, please leave a message as courtesy.

Best of luck! you can also use the {{done}} tag to state when something is addressed. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 13:17, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Please let me know after the review is done, if you were happy with the review! Obviously this is regarding the article's quality, however, I want to be happy and civil to all, so let me know if I have done a good job, regardless of the article's outcome.

Immediate Failures[edit]

  • It is a long way from meeting any one of the six good article criteria -  Done
  • It contains copyright infringements - copyvio is clean
  • It has, or needs, cleanup banners that are unquestionably still valid. These include{{cleanup}}, {{POV}}, {{unreferenced}} or large numbers of {{citation needed}}, {{clarify}}, or similar tags. (See also {{QF-tags}}). - Nope
  • It is not stable due to edit warring on the page. - No edit warring currently.

Links[edit]

  • No dablinks.
  • I ran an archiver, as a lot of the links were listed as "forbidden". [1] Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 13:48, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I also tidied the refs
  • I much prefer the written dates to the numerical version, I tried to change these, but for whatever reason, the script didn't work.

Prose[edit]

Lede[edit]

  • Lede is a bit short for a GA, especially for a team article. Wouuld expect at least another paragraph. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:11, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have never seen the word lede until now. I figure you mean the leading paragraph/introduction. Flibirigit (talk) 16:23, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Indeed, it's the lead paragraph. It's a journalistic word used to distinguish between leading someone away and the metal. I just think it looks funky. See WP:LEDE Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 19:25, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • the information on the teams success could be a paragraph on it's own here.
  • and played at the Baltimore Civic Center for all fourteen of its seasons. - Something more like "The Skipjacks played their home fixtures at the Baltimore Civic Center, which was renamed in 1988 to the Baltimore Arena (now the Royal Farms Arena)." Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:11, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • What do you mean by "home fixtures"? In Canadian English that means bathtubs, sinks, faucets and so on. Flibirigit (talk) 16:23, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I suppose it does mean that in British English too. Home fixtures would be the opposite of away matches. If there is a better phrasing for this, please use it. Basically I'd like it to specify that they play their home matches at this venue. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 19:27, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Skipjacks were one of three AHL teams to play in Baltimore, including the Baltimore Clippers, and the Baltimore Bandits. - factually innacurate. They were one of three teams to be based in Baltimore. Every team would have played in Baltimore. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:11, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The bit about the Civic Center changing names should be noted in the infobox. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:11, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Black, white, gold (1982–88) - What colours did they play in before this? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:11, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done I have removed the colors from the infobox. Putting in every colorscheme the team had would be gawdy. The colors can be used to augment the logo captions instead. Flibirigit (talk) 19:55, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oh, can you state this is American? It just says Maryland in the lede and infobox. It's very possible that someone could think this wasn't in the states. (Doesn't need a wikilink though). Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:14, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Overview[edit]

  • This article really needs an overview section - I think it starts to fail the WP:BROAD criteria for GAs without this. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:11, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Question: I'm unsure what this means. Is there an example? Flibirigit (talk) 21:17, 6 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Something like an overview of the team, or otherwise. Currently it just has a history section and some stats. A section about the history about why the team is important would make a lot more sense. See pretty much any GA. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 17:21, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Doing... I am researching more information on the team. This may take several days or weeks to compile. NOTE: I separated this "overview" from the "EHL" section below as not to confuse them. Flibirigit (talk) 16:11, 10 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Research on this is going slow. It may be two or three months, rather than a few days. Flibirigit (talk) 14:09, 23 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Might I suggest instead of a full club overview (which would still be nice) - what about a couple paragraphs about the club as a whole? Just something covering the club's birth, where it started, which leagues/honours it has won, and a bit about it's best players. It would probably meet the requirements just with that. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:26, 24 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Eastern Hockey League[edit]

  • Dollars need to be linked in first instance. There are around 50 different types of dollars, and lots use the same notation. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:13, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The city of Baltimore had been without professional hockey since the Baltimore Clippers folded, along with the Southern Hockey League in January 1977. - Journalistic language. Reorder the sentence, say that "since the Clippers folded in 1977, Baltimore had no professional hockey team based in the city." Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:11, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Question: discussed in Common issues section. Flibirigit (talk) 21:17, 6 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there anything more that can be said about the logos? Without a good reason for the article to include the previous logos, I feel it violates fair use. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:11, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Question: discussed in Common issues section. Flibirigit (talk) 21:17, 6 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The city of Baltimore had been without professional hockey since the Baltimore Clippers folded, along with the Southern Hockey League in January 1977.[citation needed] Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:11, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • In 1979, a group of 22 businessmen raised $100,000 then formed the Baltimore Hockey Advocates,[1] and were granted an expansion franchise in the revived Eastern Hockey League (EHL) on September 12, 1979 - what does this mean? Articles should be written so anyone can read them. What's an expansion franchise? Why was the money important? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:11, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The new Baltimore Clippers played in the EHL for two seasons, and were affiliated with the Minnesota North Stars of the National Hockey League from 1979 to 1981. - At no point does this say the team in question were the "new Baltimore Clippers". Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:11, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • and even played four minutes as an emergency goaltender, stopping all three shots he faced - WP:TRIVIA - Not relevent, unless he suddenly plays in goal this season. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:11, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done, he did play in the season in question. Flibirigit (talk) 19:20, 6 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ubriaco led the Clippers to 41 wins, and a second-place finish in the 1979–80 season - Doesn't seem like enough detail. The number of wins is important, but not really relatible. That could be loads of wins, or it could be very little. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:11, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Centerman Warren Young led the league with 53 goals scored. - "Centerman". I'm assuming this means someone who plays as a "center"? I'm unfamiliar with hockey, but this should be linked. I'd suggest putting "Canadian center Warren Young..." Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:11, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done wikilinked the positions. Players' nationalities are not relevant. Flibirigit (talk) 16:20, 6 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the 1980 playoffs, Baltimore fans threw debris onto ice surface, and fought with Utica Mohawks players, after a 5-4 overtime win by the Clippers. - why did they do this? Why is it important. How did they actually get on in the playoffs? (as it sounds as though they won!) Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:11, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Doing... reworded the section in question. More research is needed for the playoffs. Information is difficult to come by for 1980s minor leagues. Flibirigit (talk) 21:04, 6 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the 1981 playoffs, Baltimore faced the first place Erie Blades and were swept in four games - Swept is a jargon term. It wouldn't mean a lot to someone who didn't know the playoffs were best of 7 games series. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:11, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Eastern Hockey League folded shortly thereafter, in July 1981 - consistency, EHL has been denoted as the shortening here, so it should be used. "thereafter" is a weird word here. Try "The EHL folded shortly after the season ended, in July 1981..." does also need some explination as to why the league failed. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:11, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Atlantic Coast Hockey League[edit]

  • With the demise of the EHL, team owners raised another $100,000 to help establish the Atlantic Coast Hockey League (ACHL). The team was rebranded at the same time, to avoid paying trademark rights of $10,000 - merge Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:38, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The owners chose another maritime name in the Baltimore Skipjacks, which were named after the skipjack boat, which became one of the state symbols of Maryland in 1985 - 1985 is after 1982. The second bit seems like it was named because it was a state symbol. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:38, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done, explanatory text added to EHL section. Flibirigit (talk) 20:03, 6 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

American Hockey league[edit]

  • Skipjacks team owners continued to lobby for an American Hockey League team in Baltimore. - Continued? When did it start? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:38, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • In 1982, the Pittsburgh Penguins relocated their farm team and merged the Erie Blades into the ACHL's Skipjacks, with a three-year affiliation commitment to Baltimore - Whats a "farm team"?
  • Minor league is now linked in the introduction. The minor league article elaborates on the structure of professional ice hockey in North America. Farm team is now linked as well. In layman's terms, when a minor league team is affiliated with a higher level team (major league) it becomes the farm team. Teams in the AHL like the Skipjacks are not relegated or promoted, rather the players themselves move up to the higher level team or down to the farm team. Essentially the farm team "grows" players for the higher level team. A farm team can also be affiliated to more than one higher level team at the same time. I hope we can agree on a succinct way to summarize the above in the Skipjacks' article. Flibirigit (talk) 18:32, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Makes sense. Pretty similar to how "B teams" work in soccer. Fine now it's linked Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 19:29, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done, secondary farm team affiliation. Flibirigit (talk) 23:03, 6 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mike Gillis led the team in scoring with 113 points - how do points vary from goals? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:38, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done wikilinks added for goals, assists and points. Flibirigit (talk) 16:08, 6 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • AHL's south division - South? Capital. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:38, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The layoff possibly affected Baltimore, as they lost to Rochester in six games in the second round - Journalism. They lost - The wait isn't important unless loads of RS comment on this - and even then we can't say "possibly". Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:38, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Baltimore featured seven different players with 20-goal seasons. - an American-ism. The players didn't get 20-goal seasons, they scored 20 goals during the season. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:38, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • A phrase that is only used by a certain country. Wikipedia articles should be written for all (this isn't always possible). In this case, outside of the Americas, no one says someone get a 20-goal season Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 19:31, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The defense was led by captain Steve Carlson,[11] and goaltender Jon Casey, on loan from the Minnesota North Stars.[15] Casey led the league with the lowest goals against average to win the Harry "Hap" Holmes Memorial Award, - this says two players were at fault for the defensive effort, however only Casey has reasons for this assessment. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:38, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Each subsection here should have years in brackets Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:38, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The "unaffiliated season" isn't neccesary, it's simply not long enough. Just have it included in the penguins one. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:38, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • finished dead least in the AHL - finished last in the AHL. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:38, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Kenny Albert began his professional broadcasting career as the play-by-play announcer of the Skipjacks in 1990 - Seems like Trivia again Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:38, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Common issues[edit]

  • Should this be "Southern Division/South Division"? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:38, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Article simply says the teams coach, then players results, then placing and then how they got on in the playoffs. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:38, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Question: I am curious what other information is desired. Also, is this related to the request for an overview section? Flibirigit (talk) 16:12, 10 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, something notable must have happened during these seasons - surely. Even an attendance record would break up the monotony. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:24, 11 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Somethings are stated as if we already know them - For instance - The league realigned into three divisions for the 1991–92 AHL season - At no point in the article does it say how many divisions there were before this, nor that there were three before that. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:38, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I mentioned the issue with the images before, but it's pretty bad. It needs some comments Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:38, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Question: @Lee Vilenski: is there an example of better captions for images? It is possible to mention the colors for the logos are derived from the major league team for which Baltimore was the farm team. Flibirigit (talk) 21:08, 6 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yep, that's exactly the sort of commentary that we would want. Having an image, with a caption saying "this is the image" isn't helpful. Having an image, and then "image (dates), the white and red colours were designed to match that of parent club.." or similar. Don't forget the alttext. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 17:23, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Notes & References[edit]

GA Review[edit]

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:

Comments[edit]

  • Automated note - If you fancy returning the favour, I have outstanding GA nominations that require reviewing at WP:GAN. I'd be very grateful if you were to complete one of these, however it's definately not manditory. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 07:17, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • As this is your first GAN, I'll jump on this one. As per current GA consensus, could you confirm you are ready for me to review this article Flibirigit? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 13:19, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, I am ready for a review. Please note that I am away from August 30 to September 3, and may not respond quickly. Flibirigit (talk) 13:35, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • No problem! I'll keep it open for however long, provided I feel it can meet the criteria. I'll get a start on this one soon (I have an FAC in progress as well, as well as some GANs being reviewed, so it might be a little slow). Good luck Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 13:37, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm going to place this one on hold. It does need a lot of work, but as it's your first, I have gone through and explained a lot, and I don't mind helping (a bit). The thing to note with GAs is that they need to be readable (accessible) by all. It's very easy to be "too close" to an article, and just not see any of the issues. Please have a read above and see what things you can change, and let me know if anything doesn't make sense. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:41, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for the review. I will start working on this when I return home.Flibirigit (talk) 00:45, 2 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Lee Vilenski:, I have read through the review, and have a lot of questions. It's going to require a lot of typing and editing that I will need a physical computer rather than a mobile device. I should be at a computer by tomorrow. I will also need assistance understanding many terms and phrases used in the review as they do not make sense in my variation of English. I hope you're willing to be patient. Thanks. Flibirigit (talk) 15:59, 3 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No problem, It'll stay open unless it becomes clear it can't pass. Take your time. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 16:26, 3 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I am trying to work through this today on a mobile device. Progress will be slow. I hope to be at a better computer soon. Flibirigit (talk) 16:09, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just linking to farm team was enough in this case. Having no link means a reader would have to be fully aware of the meaning, which isn't something you should get on a GAN. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 19:33, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Article is looking much better. I'll let you finish the few things still outstanding. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:24, 11 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Flibirigit, there hasn't been any activity here, or on the article for a fortnight... Should I procedural close this nomination, and you drop me a ping when you are ready for a re-review? I'd rather not keep the nomination open for a prolonged period of time without edits. I'm more than happy to open a second review once you are happy to at Talk:Baltimore Skipjacks/GA2. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 09:56, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have lost interest in this. Please close. Flibirigit (talk) 13:20, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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