Talk:Banda Singh Bahadur/Archive 1

Archive 1

This article needs MAJOR cleanup

Even from a Sikh's point of view this is really messed up. It needs major work.

Yes I agree. Awe.mauser (talk) 07:48, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

add more detail

Says Dr.Bhushan Sood...Some people try to delete the remarks or views of other people because they do not like those ideas. That is rude and does not show an open mind. In that case the articles in wikipedia would be biased and single tracked....and the generations to come will get a distorted history to read which would not be fair on our part.

i think that bandas campaigns should have more detail. such as the sadhura kapoori etc campaigns and battles. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.59.144.85 (talk) 00:22, 17 April 2007 (UTC).

Add detail about his conversion to Sikhi Harmanpreet2367 (talk) 18:17, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Veer Banda Bairagi Gupta Ynr (talk) 04:56, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Stop vandalising

Please don't vandalise this article by claiming origins of Banda Bahadur.Every historian on Banda has his own story to tell and nothing is known with certainity.Please see Notes below the article.Thanks.Ajjay (talk) 13:43, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the above. As the historical records are scant, all documents containing some references to the origins of Banda/Madho Das, should be kept (with caveats that such records are not confirmed). A reference should be added. Claims must be supported; however, tenuous claims should also be tolerated until (if ever) more solid records are discovered. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.130.148.206 (talk) 17:17, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Don't delet any thing

Please don't delete any thing, please add. new historical view. show open mind. Don't work under any kind of racial complex. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sukhdev Singh Minhas (talk • contribs) 18:22, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I am not deleting anything.It seems to be you who is making this article race oriented.Banda Bahadur fought for the freedom of Punjab and he was a sikh and not a racist sikh.Please show him in good light.Ajjay (talk) 19:05, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, it's an encyclopedia, guys - it's not supposed to show people in a "good" or "bad" light. Neutrality is the foundation of Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.232.253.222 (talk) 15:50, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Diear Ajjay

I think you have some complex. Ple. Cleare your comlex. you are racial. Keep open mind. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sukhdev Singh Minhas (talk • contribs) 18:00, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

You know very well that no authentic work on the early life of Banda Bahadur is known.He was a SIKH.From your talk you seem to be an adolescent.All the ancient sikhs warriors were people from India.They all must have had castes, tribes or races. But they chose to ignore that and treat everyone as equal.That is why all of them are called As Singhs.If Banda wanted to be known by his caste, then his name would have been Gurbaksh Singh Minhas or whatever.When you put his caste after his name(which is not even a surety), you don't realise that you are mocking his life and his struggle and his sacrifice.Please try and show some respect to his mission.Ajjay (talk) 13:22, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Banda's ancestory

Banda Bahadur was Varagee

Would someone provide the name of Banda Bahadur's father and mother.Also if he had any brothers or sisters.And what name he used in his official capacity.Stating a historical fact and speculating on probablities is different, and speculations are not historical facts.Ajjay (talk) 06:03, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Edit war must end

Sukhdev Singh Minhas and Ajjay you two must reach an agreement and end this edit war.

If both of you have sources supporting your claims then both views should be added. Alot of things in life are controversial so there is no problem in adding 2 different views about a subject. I hope you two manage to work it out. ⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ Talk 19:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

No objection

But whay ajjay is removing or deleting other's work's. I think he have no right to remove or delete from artical. he have some complex.Sikh Rajput 12:34, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Dear friend, i have nothing against anybody.If you check the history than you will notice that i removed only the mentioning of Banda Bahadur as Sikh Rajput.The sentence is obviously racially motivated.You know very well that Banda Bahadur is never mentioned as Sikh Rajput, but as a Sikh.

He is mentioned as a Rajput, by those historians who think he was a rajput, to trace his origins.Even they don't write him as a Sikh Rajput, but as a sikh.His Rajput ancestory is mentioned in his early life .

That he was a Rajput can be mentioned in his early life.That is not a problem.The problem is mentioning him as Banda Bahadur was a Sikh Rajput warrior, the correct language is and should be Banda Bahadur was a Sikh warrior.Ajjay (talk) 13:36, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes since Banda Singh was a Sikh so it makes no sense to even mention caste. I see some RSS intrusion here. Awe.mauser (talk) 07:51, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Toneline

The writings in here has a lot of anti islamic tone when it should not be. The Sikh Gurus never picked side, they look at Hindus and Muslims and all other religions as the same. Don't forget it were the Hindus of Anandpur Sahib who drove the Guru out and there was a not a single Hindu who came to Guru,s aid. who came to Gurus aid, they were Muslim brothers who called him Uch da Pir.

My point, you would find good and bad in both camp, infact in all camp. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.70.129.232 (talk) 06:25, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree as well

Suggesting Addition of "NPOV" tag

The section on "torture and execution" in particular contains a plethora of weasel words like "barbaric" and "sadistic" - completely non-neutral and inappropriate for an encyclopedic entry. Furthermore, there are absolutely zero in-text citations for this entire section, so the entire thing is basically unsupported heresay.

File:Banda Singh Bahadur.jpg Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Banda Singh Bahadur.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests August 2011 What should I do? Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 16:05, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

File:Banda-singh-punjab02.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Banda-singh-punjab02.jpg, has been nominated for speedy deletion at Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Copyright violations What should I do? Don't panic; deletions can take a little longer at Commons than they do on Wikipedia. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion (although please review Commons guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. If the image has already been deleted you may want to try Commons Undeletion Request This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 12:54, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

accept the theory of majority of historians.

in this article BABA BANDA SINGH BAHADUR is written as a brahman.but the majority of historians approves the fact that he was a rajput.i corrected it some times but it was re-edited to brahman again and again by a user tempname1.now this user had take semi-protection for the article and no-body can re-edited it.in this way the wrong information is being provided by this user .i think that user is himself a brahaman.i request all readers to make aware the administration of wikipedia about this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paramsinghantaal (talk • contribs) 16:48, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

If people are willing to work with me, rather than fight about it, then perhaps I can help to resolve this one. I am reasonably experienced in caste-related topics here on Wikipedia.

We are currently showing various theories of origin and some of the sourcing in that section is highly suspect. I have tagged quite a few as needing more information. I have also removed some: British Raj sources and caste advocacy groups are not reliable sources for things such as this. Caste advocacy groups often attempt to puff things up, and the Raj people just wrote what they were told by locals - which basically amounts to the same thing.

I have also removed the statement of caste from the lead section. This is a temporary measure: leads are supposed to summarise the main body of an article and so it is clearly incorrect to plump for one caste or another when we have a long list of possibles. We could say that his caste is a matter of dispute but until we have checked out the sources that are provided, I'm not actually sure that it is. Many of those sources may well not meet our standards. In any event, important though caste remains in India, this detail really is rather unimportant compared to what he actually did - omitting it while we sort out the article body is not going to cause the earth to stop turning. - Sitush (talk) 17:39, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

OK, no-one except a block evading sock appears to be taking an interest in this. I will see what I can find regarding the name/caste issue, using sources that are connected neither to Sikhs nor Brahmins and which otherwise conform to WP:RS. - Sitush (talk) 05:21, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Removal of Torture section

I have just removed the Torture section from the article. The tone was all wrong for an encyclopedia but, worse, it was a violation of copyright. The content was first introduced in January 2006 and subsequently deleted/add/deleted etc over a period because people then spotted a problem, although they did not say where the material had come from.

I have just checked to see how www.sikh-history.com looked a year before the content first appeared here and, sure enough, we have copy/pasted from that website or from some other site that hosted the material prior to January 2006. I'm not digging around to find out which other site might have published the text first because sikh-history.com carries an all-encompassing copyright notice on its home page, dating from 2004.

The content will need to be rewritten and we should do so using proper sources, not a puffed-up version from a Sikh-related website. - Sitush (talk) 18:27, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Actually, I've found that so much of this article was copied from sikh-history.com that I've more or less stubbed the thing. Sorry, but this is going to need a complete re-write. - Sitush (talk) 18:50, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

thanks for removing word 'brahmin" from brief introduction.

i thanks to you that you removed the word "brahman" from brief introduction of Banda Singh Bahadur .it was sure a wrong statement in that section and people who do not know much about BANDA SINGH BAHADUR could accept it as it is. but you forgot to remove the surname "bhardwaj".this is one of a leading surname of brahmins.it must remove immediately. in "early life " section there are diffrent theory of historians available.let the people read them and left the decision on themselves. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paramsinghantaal (talk • contribs) 02:49, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

I am aware that some people make connections between names and caste affiliation. I think that the best approach to adopt here, as with all of the sources in the Origins section, is to wait for more complete information to be presented by those who believe the statement to be true. If none is forthcoming then the name may well be removed completely: we need verifiability here. - Sitush (talk) 07:10, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Encyclopaedia of Sikhism

There have been various books called Encyclopaedia of Sikhism. Why is this web encyclopaedia reliable, and if it is a copy of one of those printed books then why are we linking to it? Unsigned comment added by Sitush (talk | contribs)‎

This Encyclopedia is published by the Punjab University Patiala, an authoritive work on the subject with contributions by many respected scholars. I have added the publisher's name to the citation in the article. Apuldram (talk) 10:54, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm still concerned that we are linking to a copyright violation. - Sitush (talk) 10:57, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

The link is to a page in the original source, not to a copy - see the url. Apuldram (talk) 11:09, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

The book is in print (eg: ISBN 9788173805301). The url merely says that the web thing is an "online conversion". That does not make it copyright-exempt. Was the book published by the university? It clearly came before the website. - Sitush (talk) 13:28, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

The University publishes it on the web.
Those who prefer the scenic route could start at the Wikipedia article Punjabi University, which provides an external link to the University's website; a top bar in that website provides a link to their Encyclopaedia of Sikhism. Notice the url of their website.
Consult the index under B (for Banda); that brings up a list; scroll down to BANDĀ SIṄGH BAHĀDUR (1670-1716).
Or you could go directly to that page by clicking on the link in the Wikipedia article on BANDĀ SIṄGH BAHĀDUR. Notice that the url shows it is a page from the University's published website.Apuldram (talk) 15:37, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Forget the scenic route - it adds nothing. Where is your evidence that the university has permission to publish? Plenty of official bodies breach copyright in India, as does organisations such as APNA, but we're not allowed to link to web pages that host material in breach of it. It's no different from, say, WP:YT. - Sitush (talk) 16:13, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

The picture of statue is not appropriate.it needs to be changed.

The picture of Baba Banda Singh Bahadar as a statue is not appropriate. there are many pictures of baba ji made by Sikh painters available which are far better and matches to baba ji,s real personality.i wonder why the edit access is not available for that section to make edit. please change that pic or allow access to edit that section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PSAntaal (talk • contribs) 05:57, 26 July 2014 (UTC) I remove that picture.i wish somebody will insert the better picture their or i request to admins to allow me to insert the new picture. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PSAntaal (talk • contribs) 06:20, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Hey PSAntaal, I noticed you uploaded a new picture and inserted a new caption. This all is OK with me (but remember to fill out the rest of the copyright info here, you are missing some template parameters see the template documentation for usage).

Also, the text does not appear ar all encyclopedic to me, remember we must keep a neutral point of view so statements like "No any other work is available better than this.This is the most popular picture in Sikhs which is easily recognised by everyone and also this gave the true impressions of the fearless warrior baba banda singh bahadur in one sighting to any person.This picture is most appropriate to represent Baba Banda Singh Bahadar" are not acceptable. Try to keep the description short and neutral (like "Painting of Banda Singh Bahadur by painter XX").

I have removed some of the text in the description for this reason. Hope that helps, cheers --– sampi ^{(talk•contrib•email)} 09:20, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

No problem .The painting is free to use for the purpose.This painting is commonly found in Punjab and in Sikh,s homes.PSAntaal (talk) 13:13, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Why are you reverting my edits and deleting my posts in talk.

My contribution of a line in section 'Role in Sikh history' which is as it is 'After a meeting with Tenth Sikh Guru. sh. Guru Gobind Singh he turned to sikhism and becomes a sikh. Then The guru ordered him to go to punjab and fight the mughals with the help of Sikhs.After this the new era of his life starts" and a edit in which i replaced the word 'oppressed hindus' with 'Sikh army' are being reverted again and again. May i know the reason.I want to know that what is wrong in these comments. Please claryfy me about this and not delete my this post again.

One revert was because you places the same text at two places. That spoils the article quality. --Vigyani_talk^{ਯੋਗਦਾਨ} 07:49, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

thankyouPSAntaal (talk) 07:52, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

== Regarding 'Baba Banda Bahadur was Hindu Varagee.He never accepted Sikhi Hi Editors. I have deleted some information from the Page 'Banda Singh Bahadur' under the title "Early Life", Because it is still not determined by anyone that'Banda Singh Bahadur'was a Brahmin or Rajput.I am a Brahmin SIkh & However, as per my Research and practical knowledge, 'Baba Banda Singh Bahadur' was a Brahmin. The Fact that 'Jatts' are totally jealous of Brahmin's and Brahmin Sikh's could not change anything here. Read the article now and its looking more appropriate.Some one is saying he was born in Rajput family and some saying that he was born in Brahmin family, so lets leave it to the people because it would be controversial to write a single jaati. Shaunkiz (talk) 05:45, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Wrong Information---Banda Bahadur never accept Sikhi.Its Unjust to say as Banda accepted Sikhi Its an insult to his sacrifice.

Majority of historians aceepted that baba ji belonged to Rajput community.So the commonsense in this that we should go with the majority. SINGHantaal (talk) 13:20, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

So this page is owned by RSS. Thanks for the confirmation. Awe.mauser (talk) 08:09, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Banda singh bahadur war memorial

I want to add to this page about the Memorial built in his name . The source site I want to use is the government owned state site. Can I proceed with the same?

Marwahasaab (talk) 06:45, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Unhelpful tags

I have removed the tags Cleanup rewrite and POV from the article, as their contributor did not provide a reason for their addition, neither in the tag itself, nor in the Edit summary, nor on this talk page.
See Template talk:Cleanup rewrite#responsible use of tags... and Template:POV, Template usage notes:
"Drive-by tagging is strongly discouraged. The editor who adds the tag should discuss concerns on the talk page, pointing to specific issues that are actionable within the content policies. In the absence of such a discussion, or where it remains unclear what the NPOV violation is, the tag may be removed by any editor."

The purpose of the tags is to stimulate improvement of the article. If the specific reason(s) for their addition isn't provided, other contributors, who wish to help, are given no idea of what is bugging the tag contributor. Apuldram (talk) 11:34, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

Edit

The nationality mentioned in article is wrong. it should be Indian not Sikh beacuse Sikh word describe the religion of a person not nationality. Himanshu4517 (talk) 10:27, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Yes indeed. I have impemented the change. Thank you. Apuldram (talk) 11:51, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

In my childhood in late 80s, we never read Banda Singh Bahadur, it was always Banda Bahadur. Later some Sikh extremist, hardliners changed it to Banda Singh Bahadur. Please note that all great leader of Sikhism were all Hindus. Sikh history is all twisted and usurped from Hindus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.171.88.219 (talk) 03:55, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

Dogra Rajput origin of Banda

As the Khatri bit was already sourced, I never thought about checking regarding the unsourced claims of Rajput, Brahman, etc., which are regularly added to this article. Anyway, leaving behind the sole claim of Khatri, which is already added in the article, most of other sources mention him as either Dogra Rajput or just Rajput. So the Dogra Rajput claim should be added in the article. Here's a relevant source:

Banda or Banda Singh known as Bahadur (the Hero) is one of the most remarkable personalities of medieval Indian history. His exploits influenced the history of the Punjab in such a far-reaching manner that it is difficult to conceive what the course of events would have been without his campaigns between 1710 and 1716, when he was martyred. He was originally a Dogra Rajput of Rajauri in Jammu State. His name was Lachhman Dev. It is related that when out hunting he shot a doe which died before his eyes along with its two young ones which were in its womb.

And multiple other similar claims can be found in seemingly academic sources (although I haven't properly checked their quality yet), e.g. [1], [2], [3], [4], etc.

So I need inputs regarding the exact wording in which the Dogra claim should be added while keeping WP:Weight in mind. - NitinMlk (talk) 20:45, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

References

• I just checked that the source cited for Khatri claim in this article also mentions Banda's origin as Rajput, and the Khatri bit just appears in the footnote of that mention – both claims appear on the page no. 441. - NitinMlk (talk) 21:05, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

Make sense. It'll be useful to mention which original source supports the Rajput claim. utcursch | talk 00:03, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

To find the original source, I just checked few sources, and ended up finding a claim of him being Bharadwaj Rajput. Although it is also present in snippet views of other Gbooks, I am providing a source which is available. Here's the relevant quote:

His name in childhood was Lachhman Dev. Max Arthur Macauliffe,¹ William Irvine,² Khushwant Singh,³ Ganda Singh,⁴ Gian Singh,⁵ Karam Singh,⁶ Veni Prasad,⁷ Gianeswar Khurana,⁸ Gopal Singh,⁹ G.C. Narang,¹⁰ Sohan Singh Seetal,¹¹ Satbir Singh,¹² G.S. Chhabra¹³ hold the view that Lachhman Dev was born on October 27, 1670, at Rajauri in district Poonch of western Kashmir. This view is acceptable to most of the authorities on the history of medieval India.¹⁴ Guru Gobind Singh was four years old when Lachhman Dev was born. Banda Singh Bahadur was a great historical personality of the eighteenth century who rose to greatness by dint of his own hard work. His father, Ram Dev, was an ordinary ploughman, Rajput of the Bharadwaj clan.¹⁵ Born in poor circumstances, nothing is known of his early life except that the child, true to the traditions of his race, developed into a youth of very active habits, full of energy and fond of shooting and hunting.¹⁶

You can read about the author here. Anyway, as we have access to the whole thing, it is clear from the notes & references (which are given at the page no. 136) that there are multiple claims regarding Banda's birthplace, caste, clan, etc. (see note no. 14; page no. 136). But she cites Life of Banda Singh Bahadur (by Ganda Singh) for the Bharadwaj Rajput bit (see note no. 15; page no. 136). As Ganda's book is also available, you can cross-check by yourself – see my next edit summary for the relevant details. - NitinMlk (talk) 23:34, 18 May 2019 (UTC) fixed NitinMlk (talk) 18:11, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

References

Well I suppose, we can add something like "According to historian X he was a Dogra Rajput, according to to historian Y he was a Rajput of the Bhardwaj clan, etc." utcursch | talk 13:22, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Yes. And I guess we can cite Talib's source for Dogra claim, and Ganda's/Sagoo's source for Bharadwaj claim – Ganda is more authoritative, although Sagoo's source might be more comphrehensive as it was published recently, but either one is fine.

As far as Khatri claim is concerned, it has only appeared in the footnotes of the very sources which mention (without any ambiguity) that Banda was a Rajput. In short, my search suggests that there is not even a single modern academic who actually states that Banda was a Khatri. So we should mention the Khatri claim only in a footnote. - NitinMlk (talk) 18:17, 21 May 2019 (UTC) clarify NitinMlk (talk) 19:36, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 July 2019

Banda Bahadur was Hindu Vaeragi.Hehas been wrongly potrayed as Sikh.It will be an insult to the sacrifice he laid. Roc1234 (talk) 13:08, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Additionally, this page is not protected, so you can make any properly-sourced change yourself. (sorry, it is indeed semiprotected.) Highway 89 (talk) 14:45, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

He was Minhas Rajput

Why i am seeing brahmin and khatri there when sources said he belongs to Minhas clan of Rajput . This page needs serious edits as it is spreading fake history Sunmanhas (talk) 02:30, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

He was bhardwaj brahmin Abhijit shukla (talk) 00:16, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

I can prove book of kashmiri history Abhijit shukla (talk) 00:17, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

He was a mohyal brahmin Village Untsal (talk) 19:16, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 June 2020

AnshSharmaji (talk) 06:51, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

"change Brahmin to Rajput

Banda Bahadur Singh was born in a Rajput Family, his gotra was Bhardwaj. He is mentioned as Rajput in each and every Official Sikh Text. AnshSharmaji (talk) 06:53, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 14:07, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

When Baba Banda Singh Bahadur was baptized and became a sikh then he cannot be called as a brahmin or Rajput. He was a sikh warrior Sukh.editor (talk) 21:02, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Reference: books Suraj Prakash, by Bhai Santokh Singh Ji which is also called as Gur Pratap Suraj Granth. It's the most authentic source of Sikh History of Guru Sahibs. It's in the form of poetic verses. You can also check Persian books on Baba Banda Singh Bahadur. Why you without authentic info change the names of his wife and son to Bhardwaj. They were baptized Sikhs. Sukh.editor (talk) 21:12, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 June 2020

Change “Baba Banda Singh Bahadur was a Sikh Rajput ruler” to “Baba Banda Singh Bahadur was a Sikh ruler” as Rajput rulers belonged to Rajasthan and Baba Banda Singh Bahadur was a Sikh of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, and hence, he doesn't have any caste. This is a misleading quote meant to distort the Sikh history and hurt the beliefs of the Sikh Community. 117.97.165.172 (talk) 11:27, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 14:07, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 June 2020

Banda Singh Bairagi belonged to a Brahmin Family of Bhardwaj clan, not Rajput family. 103.216.143.41 (talk) 07:30, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. TheImaCow (talk) 07:39, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

No, Rajput are also Bhardwaj.

All Reliable Sikh History Resources which are missing

Gurbilas Patshahi 10 (1751)

Gurbilas Patshahi 10 is the first recorded Sikh history which mentioned details about Guru Gobind Singh's life completed by Bhai Koer Singh Khalsa in 1751. The author mentioned in brief regarding breaching code of conduct of Khalsa by Banda Bahadur in Egotism. Below are lines taken from this Manuscript regarding mentioned subject:

ਤਬ ਬੰਦਾ ਗੁਰ ਆਈਸ ਪਾਏ॥ ਪਾਛੇ ਕਰੇ ਯੁਧ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਏ ॥

Then Banda came to feet of Gur(Gobind Singh), who later on had skirmishes of his own will (when sent to punjab)

ਕਛੁਕ ਮਾਨ ਭਇਓ ਤਾ ਮਨ ਮਾਹੀਂ ॥ ਰਹਿਤ ਭੰਗ ਕਛੁ ਕਰੀ ਤਹਾ ਹੀ ॥
He got ego in his mind and breached code of conducts thereafter

ਅਹੰਕਾਰ ਤੇ ਗੁਰ ਨਾ ਸਹਾਈ ॥ ਤਾ ਕਰ ਗਇਓ ਸੁਰਗ ਕੋ ਧਾਈ ॥

Gur does not help egoistic and he left his holy abode in egotism

— (Banda Bahadur, Gurbilas Patshahi 10, Bhai Koer Singh Kalal

Mahima Parkash (1776)

Mahima Parkash was written by Sarup Das Bhalla in 1776, which mentioned whole incident of Gurdas Nangal, where Banda Bahadur made comments against Guru's wishes. Facts against Banda Singh Bahadur is:

1. He himself committed at Delhi that he have't followed the saying of Guru Gobind Singh.
2. He turned womanizer, more over he was interested marrying again and again.
3. He stood against Khalsa and tried to pretend himself biggest of them.
4. He surrendered.

Baba Binod Singh spoke against him and a clash happened inside fort. Baba Binod Singh and other left the fort and Banda Bahadur surrendered later on. He even confessed at Delhi that "ਕਿਸੀ ਕੀ ਕਿਆ ਮਕਦੂਰ ਥਾ ਜੋ ਮੁਝ ਕੋ ਮਾਰਤਾ॥ ਪਰ ਸਤਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਆਗਿਆ ਮੇਰੇ ਸੇ ਭੰਗ ਹੁਈ ਹੈ ॥". Mata Sundri, who was already in Delhi fetched out Baba Kahn Singh from the prisoner group.

Shahid Bilas Bhai Mani Singh (Late 18th Century)

In a composition by Kavi Seva Singh, he mentioned a discourse between Guru Gobind Singh and Bhai Mani Singh. In this section are includes lines against Banda Singh Bahadur which reiterate the fact that he [Banda Singh] is not 11th Guru but the holy Granth was 11th Guru of Sikhs.

ਨੀਲਾ ਬੰਦ ਕਰਾਇਆ, ਅੰਬਰ ਪਹਿਨਣਾ ॥
ਸੂਹਾ ਅੰਗ ਲਗਾਇਆ, ਏਹਦੇ ਸੇਵਕਾ ॥
ਮਾਸ ਮੱਛੀ ਨਹਿ ਖਾਣ, ਬਣ ਗਏ ਵੈਸਨੋ ॥
ਪਯਾ ਵਿਖਾਂਧ ਸੀ ਆਣ, ਮਧ ਇਮ ਖਾਲਸੇ ॥
ਮਾਤ ਸੁੰਦਰੀ ਲਿਖਾ ਸੋਚ ਵਿਚਾਰ ਇਹ ॥
ਦੋਹਾਂ ਦਲਾਂ ਦਾ ਮੇਲ, ਕਰਨ ਕਰਾਨ ਲਈ ॥
ਸੇਵਾ ਹਰੀ ਸੀ ਪਾਤੀ ਬਾਚੀ ਖੋਲ ਕੇ ॥
ਮਨੀ ਸਿੰਘ ਮਿਕਾਏ ਝਗੜਾ ਦੋਹਾਂ ਕਾ ॥੧੪੩॥
ਦੋਹਰਾ॥
ਅਮਰ ਸਿੰਘੀਏ ਆਖਦੇ, ਦਸਮ ਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਆਪ ॥
ਬੰਦਾ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਕੋ ਗਿਆਰਮਾਂ, ਗੁਰੂ ਗਏ ਸੀ ਥਾਪ ॥੧੪੪॥
ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖੀਆ ਇਉਂ ਕਹਿਆ, ਸ੍ਰੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਫਰਮਾਨ ॥
ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਪੰਥ ਗੁਰ ਮਾਨੀਯੇ, ਤਾਰੈ ਸਕਲ ਕੁਲਾਨ ॥੧੪੫॥
ਚੋਪਈ॥
ਮਨੀ ਸਿੰਘ ਜਬ ਦੇਖਣੋ ਆਈ। ਝਗੜਾ ਬਹੁਤ ਵਧਤ ਹੈ ਜਾਈ ॥
ਤਬ ਤਿਨ ਦੋਨੋਂ ਕੋ ਸਮਝਾਇ। ਪਤੀਆ ਲਿਖ ਦੀ ਤਾਲ ਸੁਟਾਇ ॥
ਜਿਸ ਕੀ ਤਰੈ ਉਹ ਜਾਨੋ ਸਾਚਾ। ਡੂਬੇ ਜਹਿ ਕੀ ਉਹ ਜਾਨੋ ਕਾਚਾ ॥
ਡੂਬ ਗਈ ਬੰਦਈਅਨ ਕੇਰੀ। ਤਰੀ ਨਿਹੰਗਨ ਕੀ ਸਬ ਹੇਰੀ ॥
ਸੇਵਾ ਹਰੀ ਕਰੈ ਅਰਦਾਸ। ਹੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮੈਂ ਤੇਰਾ ਦਾਸ ॥੧੪੬॥
(Line ੧੪੬, ਸਹੀਦ ਬਿਲਾਸ ਭਾਈ ਮਨੀ ਸਿੰਘ, Kavi Sewa Singh Bhatt)

Sketch of Sikhs (1812)

File:John malcolm.jpg

Sir John Malcolm

Among several valuable works John Malcolm completed Sketch of Sikhs in 1812 and mentioned about Banda Bahadur in his writing here under:

Though the Sikhs, from being animated by a similar feeling, and encouraged by his first successes, followed Banda to the field, they do not revere his memory; and he is termed, by some of their authors, a heretic ; who, intoxicated with victory, endeavoured to change the religious institutions and laws of Guru G6vind, many of whose most devoted followers this fierce chief put to death, because they refused to depart from those usages which that revered spiritual leader had taught them to consider sacred. Among other changes, Banda wished to make the Sikhs abandon their blue dress, to refrain from drinking and eating flesh ; and, instead of exclaiming WaheGuruji ki Futteh ! Waheguru ji ka Khalsaji ki Futteh ! the salutations directed by Govind, he directed them to exclaim, Futteh fully propagated his doctrine.

Malcolm directed same fact that Banda Bahadur breach panthic salutations and formed new code of conduct.

Prachin Panth Prakash (1841)

Prachin Panth prakash was completed by Nihang Ratan Singh Bhangu in 1841 is considered as most important resource mentioned detailed information of Banda Bahadur. He mentioned that Banda Bahadur created his panth parallel to Khalsa Panth and made his own code of conduct. He criticized on varoious points including Banda being a Womanizer, Egoistic, deserter and coward attitude of Banda Bahadur.

Kahn Singh Nabha, Mahankosh

File:Kahnsinghnabha.jpg

Kahn Singh Nabha

Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha, a great scholar and lexicographer mentioned in Mahankosh :

.....ਪਰਭੁਤਾ ਵਧ ਜਾਨ ਪਰ ਬੰਦਾ ਬਹਾਦੁਰ ਨੂੰ ਕੁਝ ਗਰਬ ਹੋਇਆ, ਆਪਣੀ ਗੁਰੂਤਾ ਕੀ ਅਭਿਲਾਖਾ ਜਾਗ ਗਈ | ਜਿਸ ਪਰ ਉਸ ਕੇ ਕਈ ਨਿਯਮ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਵਿਰੁਧ ਪਰਚਾਰ ਕਰਨੇ ਚਾਹੇ ਜਿਸ ਤੋਂ ਪੰਥ ਦਾ ਵਿਰੋਧ ਹੋ ਕੇ ਖਾਲਸੇ ਦੇ ਦੋ ਦਲ ਬਣ ਗਝ......

• He turned arrogant and got a desire to become Guru, After became famous among people.
• He preached code of conduct against Gurmat leads to division of Khalsa Panth.

Twarikh Guru Khalsa

Giani Gian Singh mentioned in detail in Twarikh Guru Khalsa that he tried to establish himself as a Guru in later stages.

....ਗੁਰੂ ਕੇ ਸਿੰਘ ਤਾਂ ਪਹਿਲੇ ਹੀ ਬੰਦੇ ਤੋਂ ਜੁਦਾ ਹੋਣਾ ਚਾਹੁੰਦੇ ਸਨ , ਕਿਓਂਕਿ ਓਹ ਸਿੰਘਾਂ ਦੇ ਦਰਬਾਰ ਵਿਚ ਤੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਅਸਥਾਨਾ ਵਿਚ ਗਦੇਲਾ ਵਿਚ ਕੇ ਬੈਠ ਕਰ ਚੋਰ ਸਫਾ ਕਰਾਉਂਦਾ ਤੇ ਦਰਸ਼ਨੀ ਫ਼ਤਹਿ ਬੁਲਾਉਂਦਾ ਸੀ |....

Banda Singh Bahadur, Giani Kartar Singh

In 1914, Bhai Kartar Singh had written a book on life account of Banda Singh Bahadur, in which he mentioned that Mata Sundri clearly instructed Khalsa in form of letter to not follow Banda Bahadur's commands. Khalsa assured her that they will not accompany Banda Bahadur anymore.

It is mentioned that Banda Bahadur got angry after hearing and reading this letter from Mata Sundri. Banda Bahadur replied to Mata Sundri that he had fulfilled his promise of helping in punishing Wazir Khan and now ownwards he is not bound to follow Khalsa and Guru Gobind Singh wordings. In letter, Banda Bahdur abused and written rude to Mata Sundri calling her a Dumb woman.

Bharat Mat Darpan, 1926

By Pandit Ganesha Singh Nirmala, he wrote that:

‘They initiate through ‘Charna Amrit’, keep ‘Janju’ (Hindu caste string signifying Brahmin lineage), wear white clothes, black or green clothes they never wear, they wear breaches coming below knee. On meeting they say, ‘Darshan Ji Ka Khalsa Darshan Ji Ki Fateh’. At the end of their name they either have title of Singh or Das.’

Buddha Dal - Nihung Jathebandi

Buddha Dal, the confederated army of the Sikhs, also says that Banda Singh Bahadur was a rebel.

• Banda was overwhelmed with false pride and became arrogant.
• His mistreatment of the Khalsa, and alterations of the Guru-ordained Khalsa traditions, resulted in the Khalsa warriors loosing respect for him.
• Banda declared himself a Guru.
• Banda Singh altered Khalsa salutation, stopped wearing blue, etc.
• The mighty Khalsa, lead by Baba Binod Singh and his son, Baba Kahn Singh opposed these Hindu Vairagi innovations of Banda.

Recently, Nihung Dharam Singh of Buddha Dal openly said in a video that Banda Bahadur was a apostate and Khalsa should not regard Banda Bahadur and celebrate any Festivals related to him as he gone against Khalsa, Mata Sundri and Guru Gobind Singh.

Family

He was not a Dogra rajput. He was a Brahmin of Bharadwaj gotra .his name was Lakshman dev and Dogra don't have such name ending .for ex brahman shahi dynasty names ended with dev like raja bhimdev while rajput shahi dynasty has name ending with pal ex anandapala. Devil171020 (talk) 06:32, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

Summary

Why is this article showing Banda Singh as a Hindu when he directly baptized by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Awe.mauser (talk) 07:43, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 18 December 2020

Bawa Bairagi

Vaishnav/Bairagi/Swami/Bawa brahmin () is a part of the Sarswat community in Northern India. This is a branch of the brahmins that is found almost in all India, but in minority due to their Guru-Chella tradition.There are many caregories in sarswat brahmins like, Bawanjai, athawan, saptbansi, barahis,tyagi brahmins. 'Bawanjai' means bawan i.e Group of fifty (52) gotras who only deal within their bawans regarding marriages and otherwise.Mohyals are also part of this bawanjai group.Therefore, they derived their name 'Bawa' from Bawanjai sarswat brahmins, otherwise all the brahmins who lived on the bank of holy vedic river sarswati are sarswat. they are descendant of Saptrishis (seven Rishis Bhrigu, Bhardwaj, Vashishth, Jamdagni, Gautam, Vishvmitr, Attri ). Great parshuram ji donated everything he possessed and went to forests. Parshuram, bhardwaj,dronacharya were learned brahmins with shastars and shaastras. Some centuries back they left priestly services and adopted the profession of agriculture, medicos and martial services etc.In seventeenth century, they renounced worldly pleasure and began to lead a life of ascetic vairagi for the uplift of sanatan dharam and to wash the stigma on brahmins for being narrowminded towards the so called low castes. but they rejoined grihasth after some centuries but stop taking alms from other castes. They are no more bairagis but this tag is still with them.In some part of India, they got reservations like jhangars and bairagi brahmans because of abovesaid reasons in some states but national commission for backward classess in 2001, rejected the request of swami and vaishnav brahmins to be included in the list of backward classes on the base that they are not backward class. A very few of these brahmins avails the facility of reservation in some states. In sikh history, these countless brahmans like baba banda singh bahadur,bhai sati dass, bhai mati dass, bhai praga, bhai dyala etc.gave sacrifices for the faith of sikhism. Saraswat brahmins further divided into three sampradayas i.e smaratism, vaishnavism, shaivism. Great Saints like Ramanand, Ramanuj, Madhvachari who started these sampradayas for salvation. Swami Tulsi dass ji was also a vaishnav brahmin. There are various identities region wise like Bairagi, Swami, mahanta - mahasamanta( changed name of ancient royal brahmins i.e 'Samanta'and Mahasamanta who belonged to kings courts sixth centuries onwards.These brahmins were given big chunks of lands by kings. Under persian impact 's' was mispronounced as 'h', also 'mahat' is sanskrit word which means great) . In some parts of India, this community people also called as Vaishnav Brahmin.Gotra found in Haryana like Sangwan,Maan,Dhull,Malik,Ahlawat,Pawar,Sihag Khatkar,Jaglan,Dahiya,Phoggat,Khalera,Rathi,Dhuhan, Tomer, Nibbat, Bishan Swami and Marvari brahmins. In Haryana, Jind district having highest population of Bairagi brahmans. This community of great brahmins is having various title such as Keel Ji Ke Ramanandi and Ram ke thaman with hundreds of bigas of land in punjab. Usually at least one family of these liberal and secular brahmans is found in each village of Haryana, Punjab, U.P., Rajasthan, M.P. Their normal livelihood depends on the all other modern professions including farming of the land allotted for the maintenance of temple of the village. This is the most regarded Pandit family of the villages. Yogesh.Acfa (talk) 15:20, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Not done, WP:COATRACK – Thjarkur (talk) 17:26, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 December 2020

Banda Singh Bahadur was a Minhas Rajput. Please refer https://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Banda_Singh_Bahadur 108.161.24.220 (talk) 02:25, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Open wikis such as SikhiWiki cannot be used as source material on Wikipedia; see WP:SPS. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 15:58, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 December 2020 (2)

Please change his caste to Rajput from Kayastha. He was born in Minhas Rajput family. Refer https://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Banda_Singh_Bahadur Aseemanand 20 (talk) 02:32, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Another Wiki is not a reliable source. Jack Frost (talk) 02:40, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Banda Singh Bahadurs religion Controversy

This Wiki page was recently edited and Banda Singh Bahadur was called a "Sikh-Hindu" warrior. In his early life section he is by all means described as being born in a Hindu family, but I would like additional information to be added.

Banda Singh Bahadur was born in a Hindu family, but he converted to Sikhi and was initiated into the Khalsa. All early sources describe his conversion to Sikhi.

The "Zikr-i-Guruan wa Ibtida-i-Singhan wa Mazhab-i-Eshan" by Ahmad Shah of Batala even describes his dialogue when he was getting converted. Not being clear about his religion will cause major confusion for the viewers of the page.

Overall my simple request is to add that he converted to Sikhi and if you want the dozens of sources for this, I can provide them.

Your sincerely, Harmanpreet Singh Harmanpreet2367 (talk) 18:13, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Ancestory

There are different views regarding the origin of banda singh bahadur The mahan kosh , a sikh encyclopaedia written by Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha (Bhasha Bibhag punjab, Patiala) states that he was a minhas rajput, either from Rajouri in Jammu region or doaba region of punjab because Bhai Kahan Singh relied on secondary sources and did not verify the details . P.N. bali calls him a mohyal brahmin . According to Bali 's ' Mohyal history ' banda was born in mendhar district ,village poonch ,nestling the Shivalik ranges in Jammu and Kashmir in a chhibber family on 27 october 1670 . Giani Buddh singh , a notable scholar of poonch in his famous book chhowen rattan described banda bahadur as 'brahmin ' and his version is most authentic because he belonged to that region and also who researched on the great sikh relegion deeply . Also minha and Dogra rajput claim descent from ram descendants and their gotra is not Bharadwaj the point which no one noticed Also according to some authors banda singh bahadur father was ram prasad Bharadwaj . So you should change his caste to brahmin . But if you are still in doubt then write his caste as ' brahmin/rajput ' That will be more fair . Democrata1710 (talk) 19:41, 5 February 2021 (UTC)