Talk:Barelvi movement

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Bangladesh section[edit]

In other talk threads, questions have been raised about the relevance of some of the statements and sources in the section on Bangladesh. I've had a brief look at this, and from what I can tell, the first three sentences: "A sizeable number of Bangladeshi Muslims follow Ahle Sunnat (Barelvi) movement. Barelvi movement has strong bases in Chittagong and Sylhet region of Bangladesh. Ahle Sunnat wal jamaat situated in Dhaka is a central organization of Barelvi ulemas of Bangladesh. - do seem to be specific to the subject and have viable sources. After that point, the material appears to less and less resemble information about the Barelvi movement specifically and more about Islam in general in Bangladesh, which is not the subject here. I haven't checked all of this material, and with some references it is tricky to impossible, as there are no page numbers, but either way, if the rest of the material is to remain, it needs to be made clear how it directly relates to the Barelvi movement. It is certainly not clear to me that the World Sunni Movement is connected. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:55, 8 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please check the Bengali source cited from Daily Inqilab there with reference to wsm. Clearly mentions following Ahle Sunnat ideology against Wahabis, Deobandi and Salafism. Maliner (talk) 13:06, 8 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I followed that link already and in that particular example it appears to be talking about Sunnism in general, which is where Ahl al-Sunnah redirects. It certainly cannot be assumed that just any mention of "Ahl al-Sunnah" is short for "Ahl al-Sunnah wa'l-Jamaah" and means "Barelvi" outside of the context of any other information to support this connection. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:17, 8 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Right, just requesting you to interpret the source. If someone considers Wahhabism, Deobandism and Salafi movement under Sunni Islam and correct in their beliefs then why would their speakers are against them like Barelvis [1] per বক্তাগণ বলেন, ইসলামের ছদ্ধবেশী বাতিল ফেরকা ওহাবীবাদ-শিয়াবাদ-সালাফিবাদ যেমন ঈমানের বিপরীত ও দ্বীন বিকৃতিকারী তেমন নাস্তিক্য উদ্ভূত বস্তুবাদী মতবাদও ঈমান বিধ্বংসী এবং দ্বীন-মিল্লাত-মানবতার বিরুদ্ধে ধ্বংসাত্বক বিষয়। বাতিল ফেরকা ও বস্তুবাদী মতবাদের অনুসারী হয়েও এবং দ্বীনের মৌলিক দিক অস্বীকার করেও সুন্নী দাবির মাধ্যমে প্রকৃত ইসলাম তথা আহলে সুন্নাতের পরিচয় ও রূপরেখা বিপন্ন এবং বিলুপ্তির মুখে ঠেলে দেয়া হচ্ছে} which translates as The speakers said that Wahhabism-Shiaism-Salafism, which is a false interpretation of Islam, is contrary to faith and distorts religion, and materialistic doctrines originating from atheism are also destructive of faith and destructive to religion, nation, and humanity. The identity and contours of true Islam, i.e. Ahl al-Sunnah, are being endangered and pushed to the face of extinction through Sunni claims despite being followers of null and materialistic doctrines and denying the fundamental aspects of religion per google translate. In short the opposition of WSM speakers to other non Barelvi movements and mention of term Ahle Sunnat led me to identify it as a Barelvi org similarly to Jamia Ahmadiyya Sunnia Kamil Madrasa where its history mentions Ahle Sunnat wal jamaat and Maslak e AAla Hazrat (as clarify above in the source by Akhtar Raza Khan.[2][3]Maliner (talk) 13:41, 8 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
First off, I would note that it is not the job of Wikipedia editors to 'interpret' the source, only to repeat or quote what they say directly. Secondly, just because a group of Muslims are anti-Salafi/Deobandi and make reference to Ahl al-Sunnah (which again is a very common Islamic phrase) you cannot assume that they are Barelvi. Any Sunni group might refer to the Ahl al-Sunnah - indeed, this is where the term 'Sunni' originates. Even Salafis call themselves 'Ahl al-Sunnah': Salafis themselves do not like being called Wahhabis, because to them it smacks of idolatry to name their movement after a recent leader. Instead they prefer to call themselves Ahl al-Sunnah "People of the Sunna".[1] So again, this term is common and not exclusive to Barelvis. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:26, 8 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No need to interpret the source, lets see direct mention that they are against Wahhabi, Deobandi or Salafis so atlaeast they are not from this group as directly mentioned in the source and when it comes to me to cite I already find World Sunni Movement there in the article as Barelvi Organization so I have tried to find the local source and cited what I think a good source. If you have better source than please go ahead and add it. you are most welcome. Maliner (talk) 14:37, 8 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Syed Mohammad_Saifur Rahman its chief advisor and father of its founder Imam Hayat has affiliation with Jamia Ahmadiyya Sunnia Kamil Madrasa an above proved Barelvi organization of Bangladesh per this bengali news website. Maliner and also per his article (talk) 14:50, 8 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Maliner, that news article makes no mention of the word Barelvi at all. Why did you class my edit (removal of first paragraph) as vandalism when both User:Iskandar323 and @Inomyabcs: agreed that it is unrelated and not specific? SalamAlayka (talk) 15:25, 8 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@SalamAlayka: I made my comments after Maliner's revert of your edit, but if you read my initial post in this thread, I could not see a problem with the first three statements in this section, which did relate to the Barelvi movement and which you have nevertheless removed. I disagree with the removal of these. Please could you explain that part. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:00, 8 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barelvi#Relations_with_other_movements
  2. ^ Khan, Akhtar Raza. Afzaliyate Siddique -e- Akbar Wa Farooqe Aazam (Roman Urdu). Abde Mustafa Official.
  3. ^ Khan is usually referred as AAlahazrat by his followers.
  • I did not read the section in question, but I will note that ahl al-sunna wa-l-jama'a is simply an (early) Arabic term for 'Sunni Muslims' (source), and secular academic scholars do of course consider Wahhabis, Salafis and Deobandis to be Sunni Muslims. If (and I say if, because I don't know whether it is correct) the Barelvis call themselves ahl al-sunna wa-l-jama'a as part of a claim that only they are 'true' Sunni Muslims and that Wahhabis, Salafis and Deobandi are in fact not Sunni, this can be covered in the article as such, but one thing that we will not do is to affirm that claim, because it is contrary to established WP:SCHOLARSHIP on the subject. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 04:01, 10 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Iskandar323: Salamalakya did not addressed your concerns regarding removal of well sourced content here. Instead she, he or they again started removing the content. Need your valuable suggestions in this regard. Maliner (talk) 10:17, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This article needs a more accurate introduction. All I could suggest was this.[edit]

The Barelvi movement (Urdu: بَریلوِی, Barēlwī, Urdu pronunciation: [bəreːlʋi]), also known as Ahl al-Sunnah wa'l-Jamaah (People of the Prophet's Way and the Community) which is generally considered by muslims to be the full form of the abbreviation Sunni, [1][2][3][4][5] is a Sunni movement that aims to defend traditional Sunni Islam with all its four schools of jurisprudence, the two schools of theology and the sufi tariqa orders from any attempt to reform them. As the movement originated in South Asia most members of the movement are from Hanafi and Shafi'i[6] schools of jurisprudence, Maturidism and Ash'arism schools of theology and the various tariqa orders of sufism that have a presence in South Asia such as Qadiriyya, Chisti order, Suhrawardiyya and Naqshbandi as well as many others. The movement is supported by the majority of muslims in Pakistan and India with over hundreds of millions of followers in South Asia and also in parts of Europe, America and Africa.[7][8][9] They consider themselves to be the continuation of Sunni Islamic orthodoxy before the rise of Salafism and Deobandi Movement.[10]

Even though Imam Ahmed Raza Khan Barelvi r of Qadiriyya Razavi branch of the Qadiriyya Barakati founded the movement, the movement itself is not to be confused with this particular branch of sufism as the movement consisted of supporters from most sufis in South Asia. The movement drew inspiration from the Sunni sufi doctrines of Shah Abdur Rahim (1644-1719) founder of Madrasah-i Rahimiyah and father of Shah Waliullah Dehlawi, Shah Abdul Aziz Muhaddith Dehlavi (1746 –1824) and Fazl-e-Haq Khairabadi (1796–1861) founder of the Khairabad School.[11] The movement emphasizes the importance of sufism and practices such as veneration of saints that are associated with traditional Sunni Islam in addition to also following sharia rules while reform movements such as Wahhabism and the Deobandi movement preach against this emphasis and support limiting such practices in order to be careful about not adding too much to Islam other than sharia rules which they believe what Islam was like in the earliest times.[12][13] [14][15][16] Mmuslimdunya (talk) 08:51, 21 June 2023 (UTC) Mmuslimdunya (talk) 08:51, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I revised my suggestion and I believe this is even better:

The Barelvi movement (Urdu: بَریلوِی, Barēlwī, Urdu pronunciation: [bəreːlʋi]), also known as Ahl al-Sunnah wa'l-Jamaah (People of the Prophet's Way and the Community) which is generally considered by muslims to be the full form of the abbreviation Sunni, [17][18][19][20][21] is a Sunni movement that aims to defend traditional Sunni Islam with all its four schools of jurisprudence, the two schools of theology and the sufi tariqa orders from any attempt to reform them. As the movement originated in South Asia most members of the movement are from Hanafi and Shafi'i[22] schools of jurisprudence, Maturidism and Ash'arism schools of theology and the various tariqa orders of sufism that have a presence in South Asia such as Qadiriyya, Chisti order, Suhrawardiyya and Naqshbandi as well as many others. The movement is supported by the majority of muslims in Pakistan and India with over hundreds of millions of followers in South Asia and also in parts of Europe, America and Africa.[7][8][9] They consider themselves to be the continuation of Sunni Islamic orthodoxy before the rise of Salafism and Deobandi Movement.[23]

Even though Imam Ahmed Raza Khan Barelvi r of Qadiriyya Razavi branch of the Qadiriyya Barakati founded the movement, the movement itself is not to be confused with this particular branch of sufism as the movement consisted of supporters from most sufis in South Asia. The movement drew inspiration from the Sunni sufi doctrines of Shah Abdur Rahim (1644-1719) founder of Madrasah-i Rahimiyah and father of Shah Waliullah Dehlawi, Shah Abdul Aziz Muhaddith Dehlavi (1746 –1824) and Fazl-e-Haq Khairabadi (1796–1861) founder of the Khairabad School.[24] The movement emphasizes the importance of sufism and practices such as veneration of saints that are associated with traditional Sunni Islam in addition to also following sharia rules while reform movements such as Wahhabism and the Deobandi movement preach against this emphasis and support limiting such practices in order to be careful about not adding too much to Islam other than sharia rules which they believe what Islam was like in the earliest times.[25][13] [26][27][16]

Even though the movement initially arose as a reaction to movements such as Wahhabism and the Deobandi movement, they claim to represent traditional sufi oriented Sunni Islam who form the majority of muslims in South Asia and whose history includes mass conversion of hindus into Islam by sufism and conquests by the Delhi Sultanate, Mughal Empire and its sultans such as Aurangzeb, riots and persecution resulting from support for partition of India (Deobandi movement was against the partion so in a way avoided violence), Kashmir conflict, 2002 Gujarat riots and everyday persecution of muslims in today's India. According to India the movement has a history of conflict with China also because of Pakistan and Rohingya people's post partition conflicts with Bangladesh (Bangladesh Liberation War) and Myanmar (Rohingya genocide) and India says it is because of this reason also that most Bangladeshis chose to convert to the Deobandi movement. This claim by India about the movement having conflict with China also has been proven to be true and is now widely accepted but what has become contested and controversial is India's claim that the movement has the most serious problems with Wahhabism and the Deobandi movement and also with those christians and jews who believe in religion because of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict and because Sunni muslims in South Asia and globally are critical of it as Palestinians are adherents of traditional Sunni Islam who support sufism. It is said that the movement is expressive about its differences with Wahhabism and the Deobandi movement and has always been critical of jewish and sometimes United States and christian support for the long standing and very serious Israeli–Palestinian conflict but these are in no way comparable in extent with the conflicts that Sunni Islam had with India, Europe and other regions including China where polytheism and irreligion is practiced. Mmuslimdunya (talk) 12:30, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Ahl al-Sunnah wa'l-Jamaah. {{cite encyclopedia}}: |work= ignored (help)
  2. ^ Hassankhan, Maurits S.; Vahed, Goolam; Roopnarine, Lomarsh (10 November 2016). Indentured Muslims in the Diaspora: Identity and Belonging of Minority Groups in Plural Societies. Routledge. ISBN 978-1-351-98686-1. Archived from the original on 7 August 2021. Retrieved 11 July 2021.
  3. ^ Sanyal, Usha (1 December 2012). Ahmad Riza Khan Barelwi: In the Path of the Prophet. Simon and Schuster. ISBN 978-1-78074-189-5. Archived from the original on 7 August 2021. Retrieved 11 July 2021.
  4. ^ Moj, Muhammad (1 March 2015). The Deoband Madrassah Movement: Countercultural Trends and Tendencies. Anthem Press. ISBN 978-1-78308-446-3. Archived from the original on 7 August 2021. Retrieved 11 July 2021.
  5. ^ Sumbal, Saadia (29 July 2021). Islam and Religious Change in Pakistan: Sufis and Ulema in 20th Century South Asia. Routledge. ISBN 978-1-000-41504-9. Archived from the original on 7 August 2021. Retrieved 11 July 2021.
  6. ^ "केरल में मुस्लिम 'कट्टरता', अरब का असर?". 4 January 2017. Archived from the original on 22 February 2022. Retrieved 22 February 2022.
  7. ^ a b "Barelvi - Oxford Reference". oxfordreference.com. Archived from the original on 21 November 2015. Retrieved 24 September 2014.
  8. ^ a b Cite error: The named reference BediPage3 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  9. ^ a b "Noted Sufi heads denounce fatwa | Jaipur News - Times of India". The Times of India. 30 March 2016. Archived from the original on 3 June 2021. Retrieved 1 June 2021.
  10. ^ "Sufi Orders". Pew Research Center. 15 September 2010. Archived from the original on 24 May 2021. Retrieved 28 May 2021.
  11. ^ Introduction of Ahle Sunnat wal Jama'at (Sawad E Azam Ahl E Sunnat Wal Jama'at Aqaed W Mamulat) by Yaseen Akhtar Misbahi, published by Darul Qalam, Delhi 2014
  12. ^ John L. Esposito, ed. (2014). "Ahl al-Sunnah wa'l-Jamaah". The Oxford Dictionary of Islam. Oxford: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-512558-0. Archived from the original on 2 February 2016. Retrieved 2 August 2016.
  13. ^ a b Cite error: The named reference netton was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  14. ^ Sanyal, Usha (30 April 2018). "Ahmad Raza Khan Barelvi". In Kassam, Zayn R.; Greenberg, Yudit Kornberg; Bagli, Jehan (eds.). Ahmad Raza Khan Barelvi. Islam, Judaism, and Zoroastrianism. Encyclopedia of Indian Religions. Springer Netherlands. pp. 22–24. doi:10.1007/978-94-024-1267-3_1951. ISBN 978-94-024-1267-3 – via Springer Link.
  15. ^ Sanyal, Usha (2018). "Ahmad Raza Khan Barelvi". Ahmad Raza Khan Barelvi. Islam, Judaism, and Zoroastrianism. Encyclopedia of Indian Religions. pp. 22–24. doi:10.1007/978-94-024-1267-3_1951. ISBN 978-94-024-1266-6.
  16. ^ a b "Ahl al-Sunnah wa'l-Jamaah". Oxford Reference. Archived from the original on 26 June 2021. Retrieved 26 June 2021.
  17. ^ Ahl al-Sunnah wa'l-Jamaah. {{cite encyclopedia}}: |work= ignored (help)
  18. ^ Hassankhan, Maurits S.; Vahed, Goolam; Roopnarine, Lomarsh (10 November 2016). Indentured Muslims in the Diaspora: Identity and Belonging of Minority Groups in Plural Societies. Routledge. ISBN 978-1-351-98686-1. Archived from the original on 7 August 2021. Retrieved 11 July 2021.
  19. ^ Sanyal, Usha (1 December 2012). Ahmad Riza Khan Barelwi: In the Path of the Prophet. Simon and Schuster. ISBN 978-1-78074-189-5. Archived from the original on 7 August 2021. Retrieved 11 July 2021.
  20. ^ Moj, Muhammad (1 March 2015). The Deoband Madrassah Movement: Countercultural Trends and Tendencies. Anthem Press. ISBN 978-1-78308-446-3. Archived from the original on 7 August 2021. Retrieved 11 July 2021.
  21. ^ Sumbal, Saadia (29 July 2021). Islam and Religious Change in Pakistan: Sufis and Ulema in 20th Century South Asia. Routledge. ISBN 978-1-000-41504-9. Archived from the original on 7 August 2021. Retrieved 11 July 2021.
  22. ^ "केरल में मुस्लिम 'कट्टरता', अरब का असर?". 4 January 2017. Archived from the original on 22 February 2022. Retrieved 22 February 2022.
  23. ^ "Sufi Orders". Pew Research Center. 15 September 2010. Archived from the original on 24 May 2021. Retrieved 28 May 2021.
  24. ^ Introduction of Ahle Sunnat wal Jama'at (Sawad E Azam Ahl E Sunnat Wal Jama'at Aqaed W Mamulat) by Yaseen Akhtar Misbahi, published by Darul Qalam, Delhi 2014
  25. ^ John L. Esposito, ed. (2014). "Ahl al-Sunnah wa'l-Jamaah". The Oxford Dictionary of Islam. Oxford: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-512558-0. Archived from the original on 2 February 2016. Retrieved 2 August 2016.
  26. ^ Sanyal, Usha (30 April 2018). "Ahmad Raza Khan Barelvi". In Kassam, Zayn R.; Greenberg, Yudit Kornberg; Bagli, Jehan (eds.). Ahmad Raza Khan Barelvi. Islam, Judaism, and Zoroastrianism. Encyclopedia of Indian Religions. Springer Netherlands. pp. 22–24. doi:10.1007/978-94-024-1267-3_1951. ISBN 978-94-024-1267-3 – via Springer Link.
  27. ^ Sanyal, Usha (2018). "Ahmad Raza Khan Barelvi". Ahmad Raza Khan Barelvi. Islam, Judaism, and Zoroastrianism. Encyclopedia of Indian Religions. pp. 22–24. doi:10.1007/978-94-024-1267-3_1951. ISBN 978-94-024-1266-6.

Brelvis and sufism[edit]

Similarities Barelvis and Sufism share some similarities, as Barelvis draw heavily from Sufi practices and beliefs. Both emphasize the importance of the love for the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, and veneration of saints. They also value spiritual practices like zikr (remembrance of God), and Mawlid celebrations (commemorations of the Prophet's birthday). However, Barelvis are a specific Sunni sub-sect, whereas Sufism is a broader mystical and spiritual tradition within Islam that is not limited to any particular sect.

Dissimilarities Farrukhwahla (talk) 19:03, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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