Talk:Battle of Chamkaur/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Untitled

An older version of this article had copied material from [1]. The current version doesn't. Still, having more reliable sources would be a Good Thing. --Alvestrand 06:02, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Casualties?

Mughal casualties are being overly exagerated...according to their own accounts only 40 Sikhs were killed in action. Mughals were defeated Though they were in large numbers still still they were unable to capture Gobind Singh .After the battle 3 Sikhs along with Gobind Singh were still alive — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ak107839 (talk • contribs) 10:36, 27 March 2015 (UTC) indef blocked sockpuppet of Blocked Aradhyasharma

Sant Singh was given Kalgi, not Sangat Singh

According to Gobind Sagar (Author Pyara Singh Padam) it was Sant Singh, an Arora Sikh, who was given Kalghi by Guru Gobind Singh. Bhai Sangat Singh (Parmar) was also among the last two and achieved martyrdom but it was Bhai Sant Singh who was given the honor of impersonating as Guru to dodge the attackers. Pyara Singh Padam uses Bhat Vahi to state this. --History Sleuth (talk) 01:16, 14 October 2009 (UTC)


Mughal Casualties

The article states that the Mughals suffered 90% casualties. Is that a typo? Or did these guys kill an average of 900000 soldiers on average between them? Colonel Marksman (talk) 09:16, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

It was said in the zafarnama that each probably killed 100's. If the groups of 4 or 5 sikhs were out fighting for hours 90% is an over-estimate but 100's if not 1000's would not be un-forseeable. I assume you are a pathan yourself? I'm interested to see where outnumbered armies of pathans defeated sikhs. I'm googling right now, but your input is appreciated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.48.169.110 (talk) 05:34, 21 November 2012 (UTC)


Pathans didn't defeat Sikhs, the taliban still refuses to demolish hari singh nalwa gurudawara, and the pathans still wear salwar kameez to hide from Sikhs. See qazi nur muhammad jang namah where he talks of their cowardice despite being among them.

Take your brave stories, and tell whem to your bacha baaz. Sikhs haven't really ever fought a battle where they have numerical superiority, which battles are these that muslims won? How did under 100k Sikhs rule over everything from Delhi/Tibet to Kabul?

Not by being defeated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.141.204.116 (talk) 20:30, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Authenticity of Battle taking place

The three references cited in the 5th section, "Authenticity of Battle taking place" all point to the same link given below,

http://books.google.com/books?id=wLrwmEvTDNYC&pg=PA113&dq=aurangzeb+rebellion+series&lr=&as_brr=3&ei=yzK_SanGGJGszQTjyo3GCw&client=firefox-a#v=onepage&q&f=false

The text in the above link has no relevant information about this article. Hence, replaced the references with citation needed tags. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Garry Birring (talk • contribs) 19:49, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

http://books.sikhbookclub.com/2013/pdfbook/A_Short_Sketch_Of_The_Life_And_Work_Of_Guru_Gobind_Singh_by_Bhagat_Lakshman_Singh.pdf This is a source of battle of chamkaur please Replace Result of the battle: Mughal victory.Gobind Singh escaped unhurt with Guru Gobind Singh escaped unhurt Mughals failed to capture him. 106.192.167.196 (talk) 04:45, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

correct year of war

kindly update the year of war.. It was in 1705 not 1704.... Please consider it. Thankyou. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.239.116.138 (talk) 18:09, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Hlo sir someone is misusing Wikipedia and editing it and spreading false information please take some action as soon as possible to avoid these types of useless edits — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aradhyasharma talk • contribs) 18:35, 25 March 2015 (UTC)(Aradhyasharma sockpuppet of indef blocked Amanharleen)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 March 2015

223.225.203.185 (talk) 05:11, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Sir battle of chamkaur is falsified described because Mughals were in large numbers (one million) and Sikhs were 48 in number still Mughals failed to capture Sikh leader Guru Gobind Singh.So how it could be victory for Mughals as they broke their oaths of Quran earlier.For more information please read the Zafarnamah of Guru Gobind Singh in which he clearly states that he had won moral victory over Aurangzeb Mughal emperor of India.

Not done: as you have not cited reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 10:14, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 27 March 2015


Ak107839 (talk) 06:46, 27 March 2015 (UTC)(indef blocked sockpuppet of Blocked Aradhyasharma)

Mughal were not won they failed to capture Gobind singh despite in large numbers.Mughals broke the oaths of holy Quran and broke their oaths and betrayed Sikh forces.Despite in large numbers they failed to overcome Sikh forces.in Guru Gobind Singh 's zafarnamah he clearly stated that he had won a moral victory over Aurangzeb Mughal emperor of India.Please edit the result of the battle of chamkaur the Mughals failed to capture Gobind Singh .

I would ask any responding Admin to deny these requests, until a consensus has been achieved on the talk page. Also note the IP and "new user" AK107839 both share the same POV as recently blocked user:Aradhyasharma. Sockpuppets? --Kansas Bear (talk) 06:57, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

@Kansas bear what do you know about Indian history. ? Have you read zafarnama of Guru Gobind Singh in which he stated that I had won a moral victory over the Mughal emperor Aurangzeb.Your 10 lakh troops could not do any harm to me because i m under the protection of almighty god.You broke your oaths of Holy Quran still you failed in your mission. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ak107839 (talk • contribs) 11:13, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

If you want proof of the battle then read the zafarnamah of Guru Gobind Singh.There were only a few Sikhs and Mughals were one million in number.

For more details Googlesearch zafarnamah of Guru Gobind Singh — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ak107839 (talk • contribs) 11:16, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Not done: as you have not cited reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 10:15, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

New

Sir someone is adding irrelevant information to the article please take strict action against him/her.@106.192.162.202 (talk) 11:43, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Chotaripple's edit warring

Would Chotaripple care to explain why he changed "Mughal victory" to "Mughal failure" when the sourced quote states, " "The Ẓafar-nāmah in this light assumes the form of an intriguing tautology: certainly the Guru was routed by Mughal forces at both Anandpur and Chamkaur; put bluntly, he and his Sikh were militarily defeated and left scattered."
 Did you miss that part? Or can you not read English? --Kansas Bear (talk) 20:50, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

This was because the aim of that Mughal army was to bring the head of Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji to Aurangzeb. But they failed drastically even after being so much in number that is why it was considered a Moghul failure. Insta photos18 (talk) 20:29, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 September 2015

khalsa victory read zafarnaama , how dare you to change sikh history Praneet0094 (talk) 05:46, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. -- Sam Sailor Talk! 17:40, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 27 April 2017

War Result : Catastrophic Situation . Please pay respect to 40 soldiers who fought with bravery and result is not mughal victory.It is both sided result unpredictable. 103.219.143.52 (talk) 15:58, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. — IVORK Discuss 04:44, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 May 2017

War Result : Indecisive Gulbir (talk) 15:49, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Result : Indecisive Gulbir (talk) 15:50, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

@Gulbir: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Alternatively, provide a detailed explanation in terms of the existing article content and sources, which would support this change. Additionally, please do not file multiple edit requests for the same thing. Murph9000 (talk) 16:01, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

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Sikh victory

Mughal didn't won the, it were tha sikhs which won the battle as there is also zafarnama sent by guru gobind singh ji to aurangzeb. And aurangzeb was shocked that sikhs won. Harshit Singh Hora (talk) 14:24, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Please provide WP:REF that says the same. without WP:RS such controversial edits cannot be made. --DBigXrayᗙ 08:07, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 January 2018

the strength of Sikhs were 48 and the ones who wernt hurt were 6 the strength of Mughals were 50000 casulties were 43000 Armaansingh0087 (talk) 18:05, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 20:02, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 19 January 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) NNADIGOODLUCK (Talk|Contribs) 07:49, 16 February 2020 (UTC)


Battle of Chamkaur (1704) → Battle of Chamkaur – All, Battle of Chamkaur, First Battle of Chamkaur (1702), and Second Battle of Chamkaur (1704) redirect here. I don't know if other wars happened before or after 1700s, but right now the year seems pointless. © Tbhotch™ (en-3). 22:12, 19 January 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. ~~ CAPTAIN MEDUSAtalk 06:55, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

  • Support, currently an unnecessary disambiguation. Also note: The article is move-protected. BegbertBiggs (talk) 00:44, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Battle

Sir two battles of chamkaur were fought. So the name of the title should be Second Battle of chamkaur [1] This is the source which will tell you that there were two battles fought one in 1702 and one in 1704. Please change the title from battle of chamkaur to Second battle of chamkaur. Please. Thank you


First, learn to sign your posts.
Second, per the source you supplied, the first battle was in 1704.
Third, yet this is conflicted by Banda Singh Bahadur and Sikh sovereignty, by Harbans Kaur Sagoo, Page 72, that states the first battle was in 1702.
I support the move of this article to Second Battle of Chamkaur. The article, "First Battle of Chamkaur" should be dated 1702, not 1704, since Harbans Kaur Sagoo is a Reader in the Department of History at the Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur Khalsa Post-Graduate (Evening) College. --Kansas Bear (talk) 18:17, 2 May 2020 (UTC)


References

  1. ^ Jacques, Tony. Dictionary of Battles and Sieges. Greenwood Press. p. 221. ISBN 978-0-313-33536-5. Archived from the original on 2015-06-26.

Army Composition

It was not only the Mughal Army. There was Hindu army also, from Hill Chieftains (Pahadi Raje). Some of them the Grandsons of Kings who were saved by Guru Hargobind Sahib ji maharaj from Gwalior.

Change Info

Ak107839 (talk) (indef blocked sockpuppet of Blocked Aradhyasharma) 12:06, 27 March 2015 (UTC) sir most respectfully i want to say that the result of this battle is false.Read zafarnamah which is a correct description of the battle. Read zafarnamah in the references section in the bottom of battle of chamkaur page in which guru Gobind Singh states that he had won a moral victory over the Mughal emperor Aurangzeb. Despite Mughals were in large numbers still they failed to capture me (Gobind Singh)

so please replace "Mughal victory" with "Moral victory for Sikhs according to Guru Gobind Singh 's Zafarnamah (epistle of victory)"

 Not done Please provide a reliable source for your change. Joseph2302 (talk) 12:08, 27 March 2015 (UTC)


See preferences section at the bottom of the page 8th point in the references section Zafarnamah clearly states what happened at chamkaur and further description of the battle

Ak107839 (talk) 12:15, 27 March 2015 (UTC)e as follows;

The authenticated source is zafarnamah (a religious letter of victory) which was sent by Guru Gobind Singh to Mughal emperor Aurangzeb after the battle of chamkaur. How could any historian devalue it or reject it's authenticity? Guru Gobind singh writes in his own words as follows; ਗੁਰਸਨਹ ਚਿਹ ਕਾਰੇ ਚਿਹਲ ਨਰ ॥ ਕਿ ਦਹ ਲਕ ਬਰਾਯਦ ਬਰੋ ਬੇਖ਼ਬਰ ॥੧੯॥ ਕਿ ਪੈਮਾਂ ਸ਼ਿਕਨ ਬੇਦਰੰਗ ਆਮਦੰਦ ॥ ਮਿਯਾਂ ਤੇਗ਼ੋ ਤੀਰੋ ਤੁਫ਼ੰਗ ਆਮਦੰਦ ॥੨੦॥ ਬ ਲਾਚਾਰਗੀ ਦਰਮਿਯਾਂ ਆਮਦਮ ॥ ਬ ਤਦਬੀਰਿ ਤੀਰੋ ਤੁਫ਼ੰਗ ਆਮਦਮ ॥੨੧॥ ਚੁ ਕਾਰ ਅਜ਼ ਹਮਹ ਹੀਲਤੇ ਦਰ ਗੁਜ਼ਸ਼ਤ ॥ ਹਲਾਲ ਅਸਤ ਬੁਰਦਨ ਬ ਸ਼ਮਸ਼ੀਰ ਦਸਤ ॥੨੨॥ ——————————(ਜ਼ਫਰਨਾਮਾ )

Kindly see the second line of this para. It’s clearly written there that ki Dah Lak means ….that das lakh (one million), some historians have wrongly translated it as INFINITIVE.

And, what could my forty men do (at Chamkaur), when a hundred thousand men, unawares, pounced upon them? (19)

Your few historians who have only one motto to distort Sikh history are keen to reject all sources of moral victory of Khalsa which proved the words of 10th master as I will make sparrows break falcons, I will turn Jackals into Lions, I will make 1 fight 125000, then my name shall be Gobind Singh. Here these historians give wrong translation of DAH which is a persian word which means 10. There are ample evidences to prove it. In Pakistani Punjab specially in Rawalpindi area, people still pronounce DAH for 10, even when pupils learn counting and the read PAHADE, they speak IK DAHYA DAHYA (10) DO DAHYA (20), then how could these historians give a wrong meaning?

Next Guru Gobind Singh fought 14 wars in his life and he won all but now these historians have one motto only to distort Sikh history and show Guru Gobind singh as a loser.

Now let us discuss one more thing. Why did the Moguls sieged the fortress of Chamkaur? Whether they wanted to kill/arrest the Guru or kill everyone present in fortress?

If we find answer of both these questions, Moguls completely failed in their mission. Guru escaped unhurt but gave a heavy casuality to Moguls though his sikhs got martyrd but with three of his beloveds he succefully escaped unhurt from the heavy seige.

Is it not the victory of Guru and shame for Moguls who couldn't arrest him? Does it adorn their shoulders or brings shame to their might, to which you and your historians call it defeat of Guru?

Please come out of bias thoughts. It was the power of Amrit given by Guru which till date inherits in veins of Khalsa and insoires them to sacrifice their life for country, religion and their honor.

Just leave aside these 40 Sikhs in chamkaur, do you have any match to Baba Deep Singh who was given Amrit by Guru himself and fought for many hours and covered a distance of about 8-9 kms after he was beheaded and defeated Moguls? What about 21 Sikhs in Saragarhi who got martyred when 10,000 afridi pathans attacked at their fort? They died but after heavy casuality to Pathans as reported more then 200 Pathans died and 1000 seriously wounded? What about 200-250 unskilled Sikh youths who stopped advance of mighty Indian army and stopped its advance for 72 hrs? The infantry division couldn't proceed an inch for 72 hrs and then surrendered before Tanks and heavy armor used?

If you can answer these question, then only stick to your biased thoughts that guru and Sikhs were defeated in Chamkaur. Don't forget Moguls jeopardized in faith when they attacked after taking oath of Qoran.[1]AS Randhawa (talk) 10:01, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ http://ajmersinghrandhawa.com/2015/05/18/historical-evidence-that-guru/

Sir i am amzaed that wikipeadi do not accept Zafarnama as an authenticated source of information on battle of Chamkaur? In this letter to Aurangzeb, guru ji himself mentions the presence of Mogul army was one million. Se


Sir Source is zafarnamah (a religious letter of victory) which was sent by Guru Gobind Singh to Mughal emperor Aurangzeb after the battle of chamkaur.

See preferences section at the bottom of the page 8th point in the references section Zafarnamah clearly states what happened at chamkaur and further description of the battle Ak107839 (talk) 12:18, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

The Zafarnāma /zəfərnɑːmɑː/ (Punjabi: ਜ਼ਫ਼ਰਨਾਮਾ, Persian: ظفرنامہ‎, Hindi: ज़फ़रनामा, lit. Epistle of Victory) was a victory letter sent by Guru Gobind Singh in 1705 to the Mughal Emperor of India, Aurangzeb after the BATTLE OF CHAMKAUR. The letter is written in Persian verse.

Guru Gobind Singh sent Bhai Daya Singh to Ahmednagar to give it to Aurangzeb.

In this letter, Guru Gobind Singh reminds Aurangzeb how he and his henchmen had broken their oaths sworn upon the Qur'an. He also states that in spite of his several sufferings, he had won a moral victory over the Emperor who had broken all his vows. Despite sending a huge army to capture or kill the Guru, the Mughal forces did not succeed in their mission.

In the 111 verses of this notice, Guru Gobind Singh rebukes Aurangzeb for his weaknesses as a human being and for excesses as a leader. Guru Ji also confirms his confidence and his unflinching faith in the Almighty even after suffering extreme personal loss of his Father, Mother, and all four of his sons to Aurangzeb's tyranny. Guru ji invited Aurangzeb to meet him in Kangar village near Bathinda (Punjab) and said no need to worry as Brar tribe will not harm him (Aurangzeb) as they are under his command. On the way, there will be no danger to your life, For, the whole tribe of Brars accepts my command. (59)

Of the 111 verses, the maximum numbers of 34 verses are to praise God; 32 deal with Aurangzeb’s invitation for the Guru to meet him and the Guru's refusal to meet the Emperor – instead the Guru asks Aurangzeb to visit him; 24 verses detail the events in the Battle of Chamkaur, which took place on 22 December 1704; 15 verses reprove Aurangzeb for breaking promise given by him and by his agents to the Guru; In verses 78 and 79, Guru Gobind Singh had also warned Aurangzeb about the resolve of the Khalsa not to rest till his evil empire is destroyed; 6 verses praise Aurangzeb.

Guru Gobind Singh wrote this letter from village Dina in Malwa region of the Punjab. Guru Gobind Singh spent few days at Dina and then moved to Dod, Kotkapura, Dhilwan Kalan, Jaitu, Muktsar, Lakhi Jangal, and Damdama Sahib. Guru Gobind Singh's last fight with Mughal Army happened at Khidrane Di Dhaab now called Sri Muktsar Sahib.

Ak107839 (talk) 12:25, 27 March 2015 (UTC)


The Zafarnāma /zəfərnɑːmɑː/ (Punjabi: ਜ਼ਫ਼ਰਨਾਮਾ, Persian: ظفرنامہ‎, Hindi: ज़फ़रनामा, lit. Epistle of Victory) was a victory letter sent by Guru Gobind Singh in 1705 to the Mughal Emperor of India, Aurangzeb after the BATTLE OF CHAMKAUR. The letter is written in Persian verse.

Guru Gobind Singh sent Bhai Daya Singh to Ahmednagar to give it to Aurangzeb.

In this letter, Guru Gobind Singh reminds Aurangzeb how he and his henchmen had broken their oaths sworn upon the Qur'an. He also states that in spite of his several sufferings, he had won a moral victory over the Emperor who had broken all his vows. Despite sending a huge army to capture or kill the Guru, the Mughal forces did not succeed in their mission.

In the 111 verses of this notice, Guru Gobind Singh rebukes Aurangzeb for his weaknesses as a human being and for excesses as a leader. Guru Ji also confirms his confidence and his unflinching faith in the Almighty even after suffering extreme personal loss of his Father, Mother, and all four of his sons to Aurangzeb's tyranny. Guru ji invited Aurangzeb to meet him in Kangar village near Bathinda (Punjab) and said no need to worry as Brar tribe will not harm him (Aurangzeb) as they are under his command. On the way, there will be no danger to your life, For, the whole tribe of Brars accepts my command. (59)

Of the 111 verses, the maximum numbers of 34 verses are to praise God; 32 deal with Aurangzeb’s invitation for the Guru to meet him and the Guru's refusal to meet the Emperor – instead the Guru asks Aurangzeb to visit him; 24 verses detail the events in the Battle of Chamkaur, which took place on 22 December 1704; 15 verses reprove Aurangzeb for breaking promise given by him and by his agents to the Guru; In verses 78 and 79, Guru Gobind Singh had also warned Aurangzeb about the resolve of the Khalsa not to rest till his evil empire is destroyed; 6 verses praise Aurangzeb.

Guru Gobind Singh wrote this letter from village Dina in Malwa region of the Punjab. Guru Gobind Singh spent few days at Dina and then moved to Dod, Kotkapura, Dhilwan Kalan, Jaitu, Muktsar, Lakhi Jangal, and Damdama Sahib. Guru Gobind Singh's last fight with Mughal Army happened at Khidrane Di Dhaab now called Sri Muktsar Sahib.

Ak107839 (talk) 13:35, 27 March 2015 (UTC)


Please refer the following source for the battle of chamkaur

Guru Gobind Singh by G. Singh


Guru Gobind Singh

Published June 1979 by Auromere . Written in English.


The Physical Object

Format Paperback


ID Numbers

Open Library OL9586111M ISBN 10 0897442067 ISBN 13 9780897442060

106.192.162.144 (talk) 04:07, 28 March 2015 (UTC)


http://books.google.com/books?id=wLrwmEvTDNYC&pg=PA113&dq=aurangzeb+rebellion+series&lr=&as_brr=3&ei=yzK_SanGGJGszQTjyo3GCw&client=firefox-a#v=onepage&q&f=false

This is a source of battle of chamkaur.The battle had no result. The result is Gobind Singh escaped.106.192.173.184 (talk) 09:18, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Sir the information here is not appropriate.There are issues in this page and some false information in the article.I have 4-5 sources in which the information is same and authentic. Reply me soon i will help you to improve this article.

Ak107839 (talk) 17:20, 29 March 2015 (UTC). indef blocked sockpuppet of Blocked Aradhyasharma

Sources of the battle of chamkaur
  • The following edits are by an indef blocked sockpuppet of Blocked Aradhyasharma. Section collapsed to clean page, but kept as answered by others.

sir the following are the sources of the battle of chamkaur please edit it it's not appropriate content please correct it.

consider the following sources

1)Book Banda Bahadur and Sikh sovereignty by Harbans Kaur Sagoo Battle of chamkaur on page number 77,78 and 79.

2)Guru Gobind Singh his life and teachings Battle of chamkaur on page number 57 and 58

3)A short sketch of the life and work of Guru Gobind Singh by Bhagat Lakshman singh Battle of chamkaur on page number 108.

4)The encyclopedia of Sikhism Battle of chamkaur on section 4 and page number 43

5)Zafarnamah of Guru Gobind Singh verses 19 to 41 events of the battle of chamkaur.

By keeping the above sources in view please edit battle of chamkaur 's result : Gobind Singh escaped in place of Mughal victory.Gobind Singh escaped unhurt.

so that exact information may reach the readers Ak107839 (talk) 18:19, 29 March 2015 (UTC)


one more source of the battle of chamkaur

http://www.thesikhencyclopedia.com/other-historical-places/punjab/chamkaur-sahib

i want you to edit this Article Ak107839 (talk) 18:34, 29 March 2015 (UTC)


  • Banda Bahadur and Sikh sovereignty, is unviewable.
  • Guru Gobind Singh his life and teachings, no listing under google books.
  • A short sketch of the life and work of Guru Gobind Singh by Bhagat Lakshman singh published 1909, makes no mention of Chamkaur on page 108. The following pages do not state a Sikh victory, either.
  • The Encyclopedia of Sikhism, nothing stating a Sikh victory.
  • Zafarnamah of Guru Gobind Singh, is a primary source, biased and written from only one point of view.
  • The Sikh Encyclopedia, unpublished, no author, not peer reviewed. Nothing stating a Sikh victory.
I see no quotes from the secondary sources you have listed. --Kansas Bear (talk) 18:54, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Kansas bear sir i know that but they also had not mentioned Mughal victory either .So how could result be Mughal victory.most of the book had neutral result that is Gobind singh escaped with 3 Sikhs (Daya singh,Dharam singh and Maan singh) so That the result should be Gobind Singh escaped with 3 followers instead of Mughal victory.Gobind Singh escaped unhurt.Ak107839 (talk) 19:02, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Johar, Surinder Singh (1998). Holy Sikh shrines. New Delhi: M D Publications. p. 46. ISBN 978-81-7533-073-3. OCLC 44703461. 3. Singh, Bhagat Lakshman (1995). Short Sketch of the Life and Work of Guru Govind Singh, The Tenth and Last Guru. Laurier Books Ltd. /AES. p. 96. ISBN 978-81-206-0576-3. OCLC 55854929. 4. Singh, Prithi Pal (2007). The History of Sikh Gurus. Lotus Books. p. 146. ISBN 978-81-8382-075-2. 5. Singh, Dalip (1992). Guru Gobind Singh and Khalsa Discipline. Amritsar: Singh Bros. p. 256. ISBN 978-81-7205-071-9. OCLC 28583123 Ak107839 (talk) 19:12, 29 March 2015 (UTC)


Take long hard look at the sources you have provided. Everyone of them is from a Sikh POV("....Sikh sovereignty", "...life and work of Guru Gobind Singh", "..Encyclopedia of Sikhism", "The Sikh Encyclopedia", "Zafarnama"). Should I expect non-bias from these sources? This article is about a siege. The Mughals took the place they were besieging, thus won the siege. Does it mention in the result that Gobind Singh escaped? Yes. Then that is all there is to say. This article appears to have become a coatrack for other underlying issues(editors with a particular POV, here to make things right, etc).
  • "The Sikh Zafar-namah of Guru Gobind Singh, by Louis E. Fenech, Oxford University Press, page 66, "The Ẓafar-nāmah in this light assumes the form of an intriguing tautology: certainly the Guru was routed by Mughal forces at both Anandpur and Chamkaur; put bluntly, he and his Sikh were militarily defeated and left scattered.
Odd you were unable to find this source! --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:22, 29 March 2015 (UTC)


The original zafarnamah of Guru Gobind Singh stated that Mughals took oaths of holy Quran that they wont attack Sikhs if they vacate the fort of Anandpur .But Aurangzeb Mughal emperor broke his oaths and attacked near river sarsa the battle of parivar vichhora took place there.Both Mughals and Sikhs faced heavy losses but according to Guru Gobind singh 's zafarnamah on reaching chamkaur 40 Sikhs were attacked by 1 million troops.At the end both sides faced casualties.But God showed me passage and I escaped unhurt not even a single hair of my body was harmed.He also rebukes Aurangzeb for breaking his oaths of the holy Quran and also stated that he had won a moral victory over the Mughal emperor . This is an accurate information the result was Gobind singh escaped and sent zafarnamah afterwards Ak107839 (talk) 19:47, 29 March 2015 (UTC)


Sahibe Kamaal Sri Guru Gobind Singh book Battle of chamkaur on page number 117 to 122 Ak107839 (talk) 19:59, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

As I said, the Zafarnama was written by Gobind Singh from his POV and is clearly his account of what transpired. It is a primary source that should not be used. Your continued listing of "sources" and page numbers mean nothing without quotes. You have not responded to the Oxford source I posted, that states, "...certainly the Guru was routed by Mughal forces at both Anandpur and Chamkaur; put bluntly, he and his Sikh were militarily defeated and left scattered". --Kansas Bear (talk) 22:42, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

sir Oxford is a foreign source of the battle The native sources are good sources of information.As the battle took place in India so the indian history should be given first preference than considering other sources. Ak107839 (talk) 01:16, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

No. Oxford is a legitimate 3rd party source without any bias. Your insistence on using "native sources" just proves your bias. --Kansas Bear (talk) 01:19, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Sir i want to ask something. Tell me Had the publisher came to the battle field of chamkaur in India before publishing their book.They also collected sources from other books .The place where the battle of chamkaur was fought is in Punjab India.It has been written there on a board the full information of what happened at chamkaur.The Sikhs were not defeated neither Mughals were defeated.The battle ended with the escaped of Guru Gobind Singh .That's it Ak107839 (talk) 01:59, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Chaar Sahibzaade movie depicts the battle of chamkaur.It not resulted Mughal victory or Sikh victory Ak107839 (talk) 02:19, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

I believe you are the blocked user:Aradhyasharma and are using a sockpuppet to continue editing outside your block. You have not brought any verifiable sources to support your opinion of this battle, are condemning an Oxford university source, and now are rationalizing to support your POV. I would suggest you read Wikipedia:Sock puppetry. --Kansas Bear (talk) 02:37, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Sir i had a third party source of the battle of chamkaur Jacques, Tony. Dictionary of Battles and Sieges. Greenwood Press. p. 221. ISBN 978-0-313-33536-5. it is clearly written Gobind Singh escaped with handful Sikhs. page 221 first battle of chamkaur and second battle of chamkaur Ak107839 (talk) 03:05, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Sir i had a third party source of the battle of chamkaur Jacques, Tony. Dictionary of Battles and Sieges. Greenwood Press. p. 221. ISBN 978-0-313-33536-5. it is clearly written Gobind Singh escaped with handful Sikhs. page 221 first battle of chamkaur and second battle of chamkaur Ak107839 (talk) 03:46, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Sir i had a third party source of the battle of chamkaur Jacques, Tony. Dictionary of Battles and Sieges. Greenwood Press. p. 221. ISBN 978-0-313-33536-5. it is clearly written Gobind Singh escaped with handful Sikhs. page 221 first battle of chamkaur and second battle of chamkaur Ak107839 (talk) 06:15, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 May 2021

There was khalsa victory not mughal victory.....and 1.5 lakh + mughal soldiers died 2402:8100:21D6:86B1:816B:545:761F:CE08 (talk) 08:30, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: read above Cannolis (talk) 08:53, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
provide sources and it may be added to the article. ਗਿਆਨੀ ਪੁਰਸ਼ (talk) 14:08, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Its true. It was khalsa victory SHERSIDHU (talk) 03:45, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 May 2021

The article says that Mughals won but that information is wrong. Sikhs won Gurtaj Singh12345 (talk) 22:13, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Bsoyka (talk · contribs) 02:47, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 July 2021

Idkisthebestt (talk) 15:59, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Hi

I think we should change "the exhausted Guru" and replace it with:

"He left on the order of the 5 beloved ones(panj pyare)and on leaving he blew a horn and shouted out "Peeré Hind Rahaavat"(the peer of india is leaving), clapping his hands along with it.

Here are my sources for this change. panthic.org sikhiwiki Zafarnama translation(guru gobind singh jis words) news intervention

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:21, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

No source for Mughal casualties

Provide a source or removed it please CanadianSingh1469 (talk) 03:47, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Did it take place 1704 or 1705

One place says 1704 while the other says 1705. Which one is it? CanadianSingh1469 (talk) 19:41, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 September 2021

Aurangzeb •Wazir Khan •zabardast khan •Khawaja Muhammad •Nahar Khan •mu’nim Khan •ghairat khan And add this names also;- Bhim ChAnd,Ajmer ChAnd,Raja of Jammu,Raja of Kullu,Raja of Srinagar,Raja od gangra,Raja of Nurpur And a request that don’t harm our Sikh sentiments. This names should also be added in this list. Thanks ArmaanBhangu (talk) 02:36, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ––FormalDude talk 03:19, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
Could you make clear the change you want to made? It seemed too vague and I couldn't know what you want to change. Pavlov2 (talk) 03:27, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 September 2021 (2)

There were many other kings faught against guru gobind singh in battle of chamkaur.There names are mentioned below, Bhim Chand King of Garwal King of Jammu King of Srinagar King of kangra King Ajmer Chand King of Nurpur King of Guler etc And many others faught in battle of chamkaur. Source of this information is Praachin Suraj Prakash Granth,the main historical granth of sikh religion. So kindly add these names in the list of kings who faught against guru gobind singh ji Gurjant13 (talk) 06:10, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: @Gurjant13: What is Praachin Suraj Prakash Granth,the main historical granth of sikh religion? Is it an WP:OFFLINE source? Is it a person? ––FormalDude talk 06:54, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Its a religious book which contains every historical incident related to sikhism. Every sikh respects and believes in that book written by kavi santokh singh, he was the biggest sikh historian. Gurjant13 (talk) 10:09, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

I believe you're referring to Suraj Prakash. I don't believe that text would qualify as a reliable source for historic facts. ––FormalDude talk 05:47, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 September 2021

ArmaanBhangu (talk) 04:10, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. — IVORK Talk 04:22, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 December 2021

Battle of Chamkaur was actually happened from 21 December to 23 December which was 6,7,8 poh, according to traditional punjabi months and that months were used at time of battle. Harmanjit01 (talk) 17:00, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

You have posted no reliable source(s) to support this claim.--Kansas Bear (talk) 17:40, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 March 2022

1million soldiers unable to defeat 40 Sikhs in that battle. Sikh victory. Guru Gobind Singh escaped safely. 139.5.254.85 (talk) 01:52, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cannolis (talk) 03:08, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Misleading use of words

As there is written in the battle section, It says allowing their guru to "escape", there should be context provided to that as it may mislead people into believing this was a cowardice move, I'll provide some, Gurujii was requested to leave the place by the sikhs because they wanted to keep him safe, after several requests , guruji agreed, you can check several history books for the source. 2409:4055:200:AABC:0:0:1D8B:58A5 (talk) 09:06, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

A "not to be confused with" template should be added

The title of this article is "Battle of Chamkaur" and there is no date added, which means it can be confused for the First Battle of Chamkaur of 1702, which has its own article. I suggest we add a "not to be confused with" template and rename the article to Second Battle of Chamkaur (1704) to avoid confusing the readers. ThethPunjabi (talk) 22:18, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 September 2022

Never mind this battle needs to be removed from a list Lucius Paullus (talk) 22:51, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:05, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 05:07, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Battle of chamkaur resulted sikh victory and Mughal General sayyad beg joined sikhs with some troops

Make this changes 2405:201:4009:F174:E5CF:10B8:BB1F:EF60 (talk) 14:50, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

And what reliable sources have you based that statement on? - Arjayay (talk) 14:54, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Its based on jafarnamah. Guru ji wrote it to Aurngzeb. Second, one million mughals were attacked chamkaur to kill or capture Guru ji. They were failed in their mission. SHERSIDHU (talk) 03:43, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 December 2022

2604:3D08:907F:B140:D9FE:F760:51E9:A6D3 (talk) 23:12, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Plz rectified dates Like Guru ji leave Anandpur sahaib December 20 Mugal break promise December 21 Battelle start on December 22nd Elders sons Martyrs December 23 Youngest son's bricked on 27

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Also please provide the exact wording you'd like to be included in the article. — kashmīrī TALK 23:21, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 December 2022

Instead of the using word kiliing for those brave warriors , it should martyrdom or martyred 47.54.64.218 (talk) 12:15, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Not done. Martyred is a POV term, it isn't neutral. --Mvqr (talk) 13:14, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
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