Talk:Battle of Kursk/Archive 10
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Remove
Dennis and Dircovic removed my information, but you didn't show a valid reason why you said that (book, book-review, link...), while Litvinenko's book is a valid source, and he shown how Heersarzt 10-Day Casualty Reports per Army/Army Group (based on the reports of the German troops) are understated. Remove a valid source (without a valid reason) is wrong. Don't do it again, please! If you want to remove it, please show me a valid source that confirmed Litvinenko's estimate is wrong (book, book-review, link...) Utakem8 (talk) 04:08, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
- I tried to find reviews on this source, but google.scholar gives no references to it. It does not automatically mean this source is unreliable, but it definitely means we have no reason to claim it is reliable. Taking into account that some modern Russian historical writings may be of questionable quality (taking into account that the subject, Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voina is a very sensitive topic in Russia, and keeping in mind the official position of the Russian Minister of Culture on that account), it is highly desirable to see how widely this source is being cited. It may be quite possible that in future this point of view will become mainstream, and these conclusions will become universally accepted. However, currently we have to treat this source with cautions.
- I may be wrong, so if you provide more references to the works authored by this scholar, I'll try to check if they are being cited by others, if any reviews on his works are available, and if they are positive or not. However, so far we don't have enough information to trust this source more than the sources the article currently cites.--Paul Siebert (talk) 05:20, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
- It seems the source ("Military-industrial review") is not an academic peer-reviewed source, so the texts published there have not been vetted by a scholarly community. They may be (although not necessarily are) of unknown quality. If you ask for a third opinion on WP:RSN, the verdict will be "not reliable". I suggest you to self-revert and, if Litvinenko is a really good historian, you will be capable of providing another article or book on the same subject authored by Litvinenko, which is published in a peer-reviewed journal of by a good publisher. In that case, we can return to this question.--Paul Siebert (talk) 05:32, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
- you can see online version: https://www.sovross.ru/articles/1726/40591Utakem8 (talk) 09:22, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
- I do not see this book to be reliable for german losses as it's purely based on guesswork made by calculating some strength reports and averaging the number of losses by months. The Heeresarzt reports are far more reliable than that as those are based on facts. The claim by this "author" that Heeresarzt reports are incomplete and lacking many losses moves this more to soviet propaganda (AKA alternative facts). --Denniss (talk) 08:20, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
- (EC) You added a book from an unknown author, heavily contradicting losses cited/stated by reliable authors/historians so you are in the position to prove the authors wild claims/guesses are valid. --Denniss (talk) 09:27, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
Break Comment
Since I have been accused of deliberately removing citations without proper reason, I will clarify my motivation behind. Litvinenko claims not only that the German medical service would downplay losses, but he also denigrates several Russian historians that allegedly overstate Soviet losses, as those, who contribute to the "Soviet human wave-attack myth". In his final verdict, the Red Army lost 370-380 thousand and the Wehrmacht 380-430 thousand soldiers, killed, wounded and missing.[1] It should be noted that Krivosheev consider the three independent channels in the German army[2] for submitting casualties reports as "fairly accurate" and "most comprehensive". However, he notes that in the final stage of war, the reports were less accurate.[3] Krivosheev consider at least 800,000 Soviet casualties for the Battle of Kursk, which seem to be in stark contrast to what Litvinenko wants to claim, Overall, Litvinenkos calculation methods and extrapolation of casualties are not convincing and I would cite it only with caution. Regards Dircovic (talk) 11:13, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
- "Red Army lost 370-380 thousand" - because Litvinenko counted only killed + seriously wounded (went to hospital)Utakem8 (talk) 12:25, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
- I doubt it, because Krivosheev made it clear, that these casualties are irrecoverable losses and they are not returning to the battle of Kursk any time soon. Your claim that he would "only count" seriously wounded is insupportable, given Litvinenkos calculation methods behind it. Dircovic (talk) 20:36, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
- ^ [Цена Курской битвы — часть II (see last para.) https://vpk-news.ru/articles/44599]
- ^ "During World War II there were three independent channels in the German armed forces for the submitting of casualty reports. The first channel was for gathering reports from HQs, the aim being to give superior commands an idea of the number of casualties and of reinforcements needed. The second channel was via the medical service and its purpose was that hospitals' workload could thus be assessed, and to ascertain whether hospitals needed to be relocated or their capacity increased. The third channel was to provide personal details of armed services' casualties. Reports via all three channels were submitted, depending on their purpose, to the relevant headquarters (of the army, navy or air force) so that the necessary decisions could be taken." Krivosheev, Soviet Casualties and Combat Losses in the Twentieth Century, Greenhill Books, 1997
- ^ "In the final stage of war, however, because of general confusion on the German-Soviet front, the accuracy of these summaries fell sharply. [...] Generally this meant that the figures were calculated on the basis of information pertaining to the preceding months. The systematic recording of casualty numbers was also disrupted at this stage, and reports were contradictory and imprecise, This was particularly true of statics from logistic and servicing units, subunits and departments and also the police and other paramilitary formations made up of foreign nationals (Serb, Croats, Czechs, Slovaks, Poles, French, Beligans, Dutch, etc.)" Krivosheev, Soviet Casualties and Combat Losses in the Twentieth Century, Greenhill Books, 1997
- Krivosheev also counted only those wounded that were hospitalized, Mudriy zmei (talk) 14:44, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
Casualties
It looks confusing. If we list Citadel and Battle of Kursk separately, we imply they were two different battles (which was obvioulsy not the case). However, if Germans sustained 50,000 KIA during Citadel and 50,000 during the battle of Kursk, does it mean they sustained no casualties during the second phase, or "Battle of Kusk" started after Citadel was stopped?--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:40, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
Two other comments. As far as I know, Germans considered every tank that tad been towed to a repair facility as "damaged". In contrast, Soviets used more loose approach. Therefore, many, if not majority of "damaged" German tanks were actually lost either because they were unrepairable or because they were seized during subsequent retreat. Second, I see Frieser as a source for some Soviet losses. I am wondering what data were used by this author? If they were German data, I have no idea on how could the retreating army adequately count the losses of the enemy. If he used soviet data, I would like to see this source. In addition, as soon as we use German data for Soviet losses, it seems natural to use Soviet/Russian data for German losses.--Paul Siebert (talk) 21:00, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
- The relevant page from Friester is here, page 152. He uses Soviet documents for the figures, but does not add those figures up; the article statistic was created by adding the highest estimate of Voronezh Front losses with Central Front losses from a different period. Kges1901 (talk) 21:43, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
- Frieser cites Boris Sokolov, whose claim about 40+ Soviet casualties in WWII is totally fringe. Anyway, my other concerns have not been addressed.--Paul Siebert (talk) 23:37, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
- I am referring to the Soviet tank losses here, which is the only case that Frieser is used for Soviet losses, and Frieser's figures for tank losses are based on Soviet archival documents, not Sokolov. OTOH the addition method used for the maximum of Soviet tank losses borders on WP:SYNTH and instead the relevant tank loss figures should probably be in a footnote, explained throughly. As for the German casualties, Battle of Kursk is supposed to refer to the entire battle and Operation Citadel to only the German offensive phase. Kges1901 (talk) 23:41, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
- Frieser cites Boris Sokolov, whose claim about 40+ Soviet casualties in WWII is totally fringe. Anyway, my other concerns have not been addressed.--Paul Siebert (talk) 23:37, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
- Actually, Frieser says "1614-1956 fighting vehicles" was a total loss during the defensive phase, so I see no synthesis here. The only question regarding tanks is how did Germans took into account the tanks that were captured in repair shops?
- Regarding the rest, a separation on "Citadel" and "Battle of Kursk" is misleading, and a footnote is not an option. It should be "German offensive (Citadel)" and "Total", otherwise a reader may conclude only the Soviet offensive is considered the battle of Kursk. I was going to fix that, however, I see some problem: the section about German casualties says the losses were 50k KIA during Citadel and 50k total, which is definitely not the case. Some figures are definitely wrong. Can anybody check it?--Paul Siebert (talk) 00:45, 2 November 2018 (UTC)