Talk:Becky (slang)/Archive 1
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Where is: Fat and hideous looking white women that engages in interracial dating?
Where is this definition in the article? Many people understand it to nmean especially that. Why isn't this mentioned? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.205.198.14 (talk) 17:01, 23 August 2019 (UTC)
Whether or not the slang means Oral Sex
These two sources uses "Urban Dictionary" as a secondary source, but when I click the Urban Dictionary, there is no mentioning of "oral sex" or "blow job". Thus, the following 2 sources are unreliable (specifically for the "oral sex").
- https://www.complex.com/life/2016/04/beyonce-lemonade-becky
- https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2016/04/109258/iggy-azalea-becky-white-women-racist
@Wikieditor19920: My concern is that someone might have played with Urban Dictionary, but now Urban Dictionary realizes that the definition is wrong. Only a tiny number of people mean the slang for Oral Sex, and the majority do not mean the slang for Oral Sex.
Imagine a wife saying "Honey, do you want a Becky?". Husband could mis-interpreted as a suggestion for threesome. Imagine a husband saying "Honey, I would feel so good if you do a Becky". Wife would instantly suspect that he is having an affair with another woman named Rebecca. Think about it. Sober people generally do not use sexual language confusingly, even in the context of dirty-talking. Drunk people talk confusingly.
- @Malairen: it's been decided that Urban Dictionary is not a reliable source, see Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources, so any source using it also fails. It's user-generated. Doug Weller talk 09:02, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Doug Weller: @Malairen: The source was in fact a secondary source, Refinery29, a women's style and contemporary pop culture site with news & opinion pieces. That piece referenced an Urban Dictionary entry, but Urban Dictionary wasn't used as a citation in the article. Malairen claimed the secondary source was wrong and that no Urban Dictionary entry existed with that definition, but this is incorrect. The piece was accurate when it said there is an Urban Dictionary entry listing "oral sex" as one of the definitions for "Becky."
- Also, Malairen suggests Refinery 29 is not a reliable source. If we were dealing with an academic or otherwise significant issue, I'd probably agree that a style and pop culture website is not the best source. However, we are discussing the definition of a crass, slang term and how it is used in different contexts. Style and pop culture websites are appropriate for this kind of subject material. It's not enough to claim a source is "unreliable" without a reason why, or just because you haven't previously heard of it. It also isn't really appropriate to discuss our personal experiences with the term or thoughts about it; as with any content, any assertions need to be backed by a secondary source. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 14:49, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
- Correction: The Refinery29 piece does not rely on Urban Dictionary for the "oral sex" definition of "Becky." That was another piece. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 14:51, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Wikieditor19920: 1. I see your point, but that should not appear in the lead, as that would give WP:UNDUE because of the prominence of placement. "Wikipedia aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation in reliable sources on the subject." Malairen (talk) 01:55, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
- That's a policy, but I don't see it as an argument to justify your edit. These are the two leading definitions of the slang term based on sources. Here's E online reporting the same. Any argument raising a DUE issue needs to make reference to sources. It does not make sense to omit one definition of this slang term in favor of another; both should be acknowledged right off the bat. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 02:22, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
- WP:OM justifies my edit. Offensive words should not be included unless they are treated in an encyclopedic manner. Leading the article with "some contexts as a reference to oral sex (performed by a woman)" offends young female readers who happen to be named Rebecca, and it is our responsibility to take out offensive content from the lead. You cannot just omit the context of rap song(s). Malairen (talk) 10:11, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Wikieditor19920: 1. I see your point, but that should not appear in the lead, as that would give WP:UNDUE because of the prominence of placement. "Wikipedia aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation in reliable sources on the subject." Malairen (talk) 01:55, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
@Malairen: WP:NOTCENSORED. We don't omit "bad words" from articles. The entire article is a slang pejorative. It is no more "offensive" than the article itself to note how this term is used. A dry and neutral description of this definition is required if we're going to have an article on popular usage of this slang term. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 14:19, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
@SlimVirgin: I noticed that you simply removed the other definition with the edit summary "not really." I'm not sure how you drew this conclusion, as the oral sex definition is supported in multiple sources. Would you care to elaborate more here or participate in the discussion? Wikieditor19920 (talk) 14:23, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
- Here is another source, USA Today, discussing the use of "Becky" to refer to a sex act in pop and hip hop music.
Things get very NSFW in 2010 when rapper Plies takes the concept further. His song Becky is cited as the start of the name's use as slang for a specific sexual act, not just a stand-in for a sexual woman. And in this connotation, an act that is believed to be favored by white women (we'll let everyone debate this last part amongst themselves).
- Here's a Chicago-based online pop culture and music magazine also referencing how the term is used in popular music:
Becky as a term generally refers to the concept of a "basic white girl," though there can also be a connotation relating to oral sex.
- Also, here is a white paper by American linguist Noam Chomsky commissioned by Harvard.... no I'm kidding. But I think we have enough sources to affirm that "oral sex"/a sex act performed by a woman is one of the leading definitions of "Becky." Wikieditor19920 (talk) 14:36, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
- I can't find evidence of it being used that way. One song in 2009 seems to have done so, but the current usage is clear. SarahSV (talk) 18:37, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
- @SlimVirgin: The sources named above confirm that it is used in that way. Searching song lyrics for "evidence" sounds like WP:OR, which is tempting for slang terms but also not appropriate. Nor would it be acceptable if I went out and surveyed people on the street for a definition. We're required to defer to what sources have reported. An issue was raised earlier with one using Urban Dictionary, but two more have been provided that do not rely on that site. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 18:59, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
- I didn't say that I "searched song lyrics" and I have no idea how you could infer that from my post. The most up-to-date sources (that I have seen) are clear about the meaning of Becky. If you have a very recent source that says otherwise, please post it here. We do mention the other use, but it would be UNDUE in the lead. SarahSV (talk) 19:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
- @SlimVirgin: Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear what you meant by "evidence." In any case, I have provided two sources—EOnline and USA Today—from the past few years, within the same timeframe as the majority of sources for this article—confirming the usage of this term to refer to a sex act (oral sex performed by a woman). Both of these are reliable sources, and specifically addressing the topic of this article: the usage of this particular slang term.
- The timing shouldn't be an issue, since apparently the phrase has been around since before 2010. It seems more of a DUE violation to entirely omit this definition from the article. For the lead to serve as an effective summary, it should immediately and briefly describe the most common usages of this term, of which "oral sex" is one. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 19:17, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
- I didn't say that I "searched song lyrics" and I have no idea how you could infer that from my post. The most up-to-date sources (that I have seen) are clear about the meaning of Becky. If you have a very recent source that says otherwise, please post it here. We do mention the other use, but it would be UNDUE in the lead. SarahSV (talk) 19:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
- The link is above, but here it is again. The New Statesmen, which is currently given an in-text attribution in the lead, also takes note of this term as a reference to oral sex.
- @SlimVirgin: The sources named above confirm that it is used in that way. Searching song lyrics for "evidence" sounds like WP:OR, which is tempting for slang terms but also not appropriate. Nor would it be acceptable if I went out and surveyed people on the street for a definition. We're required to defer to what sources have reported. An issue was raised earlier with one using Urban Dictionary, but two more have been provided that do not rely on that site. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 18:59, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
- I can't find evidence of it being used that way. One song in 2009 seems to have done so, but the current usage is clear. SarahSV (talk) 18:37, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
"Becky" is a slang term for a stereotypical white girl who over the years has been variously characterised as "snobbish" (from the earliest Urban Dictionary definition) to good at oral sex (from the song Becky by Plies). After a reference to "Becky" appeared in Beyoncé's Lemonade, the name received press coverage and has become associated with a stereotypical white girl who loves Starbucks and Uggs and is clueless about racial and social issues. In essence, Becky is best summarised by another slang term – a "basic bitch".
- The fact that we have numerous sources affirming that the term is a slang reference to oral sex clearly shows that the article is incomplete without acknowledging this. If anything, a definition that has been noted for several years is deserving of more weight than a spate of articles within a period of months. This is why I think it wasn't necessarily accurate to summarily remove this material with the edit summary "not really." I'm willing to work with you on wording or placement, but I'll note that the oral sex definition that was provided in the article was already sort of an "also" to avoid giving alleged disproportionate weight. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 20:41, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
- WP:RSP Stick with 'USA Today', a likely reliable source, a step-by-step approach. The 'News States Man' source meant to show reader the most extreme meaning of Becky, and jumped the gun. Malairen (talk) 00:23, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
- Eonline.com isn't a good source. The New Statesman isn't either for this, given that it's a US term; I was thinking of removing it from the lead. But the point is the fellatio thing is minority, perhaps tiny-minority. It's just not how the term is used. SarahSV (talk) 00:42, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
- E-Online is a perfectly acceptable source for pop culture and music, and The New Statesmen is reliable enough for inclusion, even if it is given less weight than American publications. The assertion
"It's just not how the term is used"
is contradicted by the sources. Our own personal familiarity or belief about how the term is irrelevant (also, even if we were to go down that path—it is almost certainly a common usage of the term, one I've heard before, that's frequently used in songs you'd hear on the radio, etc.). Wikieditor19920 (talk) 02:02, 30 May 2020 (UTC) - The sources also do not suggest the term being used as a crude reference to oral sex is a "tiny minority." If anything, usage prior to 2016 seems to be exclusively about oral sex, with the "white girl in uggs" connotation seeming to follow the Beyonce song. I've added the oral sex definition after the Merriam Webster in-text attributed definition, and also included references to the song by Beyonce and Plies in the lead, which seem to be among the most notable public usages of the term in the last decade, other than the "BBQ Becky" and other memes. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 14:07, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
- E-Online is a perfectly acceptable source for pop culture and music, and The New Statesmen is reliable enough for inclusion, even if it is given less weight than American publications. The assertion
- The fact that we have numerous sources affirming that the term is a slang reference to oral sex clearly shows that the article is incomplete without acknowledging this. If anything, a definition that has been noted for several years is deserving of more weight than a spate of articles within a period of months. This is why I think it wasn't necessarily accurate to summarily remove this material with the edit summary "not really." I'm willing to work with you on wording or placement, but I'll note that the oral sex definition that was provided in the article was already sort of an "also" to avoid giving alleged disproportionate weight. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 20:41, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
Please do not continue to edit against consensus. Adding a sexual slur to the lead is wildly UNDUE. The sources don't support it, and there is no consensus on this page to do it. SarahSV (talk) 17:10, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
- @SlimVirgin: This is unnecessarily accusatory. This term is used as a sexual slur, and this is noted in multiple reliable sources that I've already provided, and the body of the article mentions this. It seems inaccurate to state the
sources don't support it
when sources prove just the opposite. Why else would this definition be mentioned in the body? Respectfully, the lead is meant to serve as a summary of the article, and that would conceivably include all of the term's most popular usages. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 17:24, 31 May 2020 (UTC)- The meaning is discussed in two articles in The Root (2016 and 2017), which other sources refer to. It's also discussed in an edited volume, Surviving Becky(s): Pedagogies for Deconstructing Whiteness and Gender (2020). There is no reference to the sexual slur in The Root articles or the book. See WP:DUE and MOS:LEADNO. SarahSV (talk) 18:13, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
- This is a conflict between the "academic" usage of the term and its popular usage in slang. Use of the term as sexual innuendo in popular is sourced back to 2010. The book you linked is from last year. There is a Root article in 2017, "Five Types of Becky," that seems more satirical than an actual reliable source for all usages. On the other hand, Complex also has an article in 2016 putting it very clearly:
(For the record, "Becky" is also a slang term for basic white girls—and for oral sex.
While not all of the sources explicitly reference the term as related to sexual innuendo, enough do over a long enough period of time to confirm that this is at least one common understanding of it. This is explicitly noted in the body already, and adding this to the lead would not violate WP:LEADNO. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 20:19, 31 May 2020 (UTC)- The secondary sources regard The Root as an RS for this. What I see is a variety of sources using this term and describing it along similar lines. Then I come to Wikipedia, a largely male website, and the talk page is literally full of discussion about the penis, the effect on the penis, and the attractiveness or not ("fat and hideous looking"). The WP:ONUS is on you to gain consensus to add the sexual slur to the lead. SarahSV (talk) 20:54, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
- This is a conflict between the "academic" usage of the term and its popular usage in slang. Use of the term as sexual innuendo in popular is sourced back to 2010. The book you linked is from last year. There is a Root article in 2017, "Five Types of Becky," that seems more satirical than an actual reliable source for all usages. On the other hand, Complex also has an article in 2016 putting it very clearly:
- The meaning is discussed in two articles in The Root (2016 and 2017), which other sources refer to. It's also discussed in an edited volume, Surviving Becky(s): Pedagogies for Deconstructing Whiteness and Gender (2020). There is no reference to the sexual slur in The Root articles or the book. See WP:DUE and MOS:LEADNO. SarahSV (talk) 18:13, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
- @SlimVirgin: This is unnecessarily accusatory. This term is used as a sexual slur, and this is noted in multiple reliable sources that I've already provided, and the body of the article mentions this. It seems inaccurate to state the
@SlimVirgin: Our goal is to put together an encyclopedia, not WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. The Root is a reliable source generally, but I found the article you referenced to be somewhat satirical and incomplete. The other sources provided are reliable as well, and they do reference the other connotation for this term. I have not "added a sexual slur" to the lead at any point. I added information noting that this term is used as a sexual slur using about as dry and sterile a description as possible ("perform oral sex.") Nowhere is the word "penis" or any other unnecessarily provocative language used—but this is a provactive term, and it violates WP:NPOV to gloss over that. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 21:01, 31 May 2020 (UTC)