Talk:Beer sommelier

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From Talk:Beer tasting:

Merge from Cervesario and Beer sommelier

It seems to me the articles on Cervesario, Beer sommelier and this one are about the same phenomena (profession). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:46, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, and I think Beer rating could be merged as well, as it's essentially the same thing, and these articles are all stubs. And perhaps Beer appreciation could be created as a redirect. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 11:33, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

As the Beer rating article is the longer established, with more (and more complex) links and redirects, and is more developed with more references, I think the merges and redirects should be to that article. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 11:37, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Though I agree with merging the various tasting professions to this article (I thought about it when I started the article); from my experience, Beer rating is a different phenomena: it is an industry in and of itself, rather than part of the practice of tasting the beers. Moreover, all of the Craft Breweries that I have visited (which is many, I am starting to do extensive research in Beer culture), frame tasting like wine tasting: as an experience for understanding the complexities, and ingredients, rather than as a means of establishing which is better. which is more of the internet culture and the product of beer competitions. (UTC)Sadads (talk) 14:43, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

What do you see as the difference between beer tasting and beer rating? I think the distinction would be quite subtle - both involve sampling beer and evaluating it. It just appears to be a different name for the same activity. Piotr's comments above suggest a professional element in the articles he names - but the Beer tasting article as it stands is about general evaluation of the taste of beer, and uses guidance from a beer rating website. I can see the possibility of at some point having two articles - one on professional beer evaluation, and one on general beer evaluation, but for now, with all these stubs, I would see the distinctions between professional and amateur as simply sections in a larger article which aims to deal comprehensively, holistically and encyclopedically with the topic, in a manner helpful to the general reader (and to us, as well!) SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 15:45, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Beer tasting is an activity rather than a profession, like Beer sommelier so should not in my opinion be merged together. However you could argue to clean up that Beer rating should be a section under Beer tasting, as both are activities performed by laymen and professionals, as is wine tasting for example. Cervesario is a term which seems to be used in Poland and invented by one brewery, using it for their course and certification rather like 'Cicerone' which is a trade-marked term. The term 'Beer sommelier' is a more broadly used non-trade marked professional term in English in North America, UK and Australia by a number of educational and certifying bodies. By all means mention the term in the Beer sommelier article, with an external link but promotion of one brewery's scheme might be seen as spammy in my opinion. Firebuild (talk) 09:03, 12 May 2014 (UTC)(User talk:Firebuild)

I support the proposed merge. One article, Beer Tasting, with subsections on Professional, Amateur, and Other would suffice. As it stands now, the Cervesario and Beer sommelier articles are Stubs with little additional information to add to make them into anything bigger. Prof. Mc (talk) 21:22, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

• Cervesario merged. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 16:00, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

The merge seems to have happened with everything going to beer sommelier. We have Coffee cupping, Whisky tasting, and Wine tasting, so why not beer tasting as the main article here? I have no doubt that the tasting happens, but some of the content about being a certified "beer sommelier" seems more dubious. Blue Rasberry (talk) 20:22, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

I think Cervesario should not get its own section. as this promotes one certification over another. As this is a scheme monopolised by one brewery, is it in fact a beer sommelier certification or a tour leader for that brewery in their visitor centre? - a dubious addition to this page IMO Firebuild (talk) 18:59, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

RE: Beer Tasting As i said before this is an activity potentially performed by anyone. A Beer Sommelier is a qualification and a profession. Sommelier gets a page with wine tasting as a separate page as they are two different things. One an activity, the other a profession.Firebuild (talk) 19:03, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Sources about beer tasting

Beer tasting is a thing.

• Bernstein, Joshua M. (2013). The complete beer course : boot camp for beer geeks: from novice to expert in twelve tasting classes. New York, NY: Sterling Epicure. ISBN 978-1402797675.
• Mosher, Randy (2009). Tasting beer : an insider's guide to the world's greatest drink. North Adams, MA: Storey Pub. ISBN 978-1603420891.
• Zien, Schuyler Schultz ; foreword by Peter (2012). Beer, food, and flavor : tasting, pairing, and the culture of craft beer. New York: Skyhorse Pub. ISBN 978-1616086794.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
• Alworth, Jeff (2012). Beer tasting tool kit. San Francisco, CA: Chronicle Books. ISBN 978-1452101767.
• Company, Rita Kohn ; with Upland Brewing (2013). The complete idiot's guide to beer tasting. New York, NY: Alpha. ISBN 978-1615643011.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
• Hoffman, Lynn (2012). Short course in beer : an introduction to tasting and talking about the world's most civilized beverage. New York, NY: Skyhorse Pub. ISBN 978-1616086336.

Blue Rasberry (talk) 20:28, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Links to products from individual companies

Firebuild, here you restored information and links to private companies talking about their own products. Per WP:SELFPUB, this is unorthodox because the claims being made here are being backed with citations to websites which exist primarily for purpose of selling their education programs, which are their products. I do not understand your justification "not promoting one educator above any other" as none of these are reliable sources. Can you please say more about why you feel information about these companies belongs here? Blue Rasberry (talk) 19:12, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

You deleted one entry (Cicerone) and silk tork has added a far more dubious Cerverario. I was asked by Prof. Mc to add all the certifying bodies as I am familiar with them. Cicerone is as valid as any others, and the entry is based on the established precedent on the sommelier page. I tried to write about all them objectively and treat them all the same. The addition at the end of the section by Silk Tork was more of a plug for Cicerone and the craft beer institute. However I do agree with removal of the the first mention of Cicerone in the first sentence, that was an unnecessary mention. I have no connection to the Craft Beer Institute or the Cicerone certification scheme and wrote all the entries on certification.Firebuild (talk) 20:16, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Firebuild Are they not all dubious? Do not all these companies exist to provide their own certification without being part of any broader oversight organization? It was my intent to remove them all equally. Which one is the most respectable, and why? Blue Rasberry (talk) 00:11, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Blueraspberry Not surprisingly no broader oversight body exists to oversee the international Beer sommelier certification and education. Each of the bodies have associations with or controlled by other more established bodies. e.g. the Institute of Brewing and Distilling or the American Brewers Association. They are relevant as a beer sommelier must qualify to gain professional certification as in many other professions, especially wine (which this is largely based on). If you removed every mention of private companies from Wikipedia, that would be an unnecessary work load. The question is if they are being promoted. I feel that you can't talk about certifying as a Beer sommelier then the article loses a major element and more importantly the reader's understanding of what the profession and qualification represents. Whole companies and private educating bodies have their own page, (e.g. Wine and Spirit Education Trust) I am just listing the known bodies that educate and certify people in this profession.As I have not focused on one over another, how am I promoting a private company? Some subjects require mentions of private organizations to understand the subject, I hope I have handled it sensitively to the spirit of Wikipedia. If you feel they need editing, fair enough, but deletion only demeanes the voracity of the articleFirebuild (talk) 07:25, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Firebuild You are right that deletion of these sources harms this article. I am not sure this article should exist at all, because I see no valid sources to back the concept.

There are lots of new professions which are not well established. I respect the education of a beer sommelier, the job itself which needs to be done, the certification process, and the concept of it all, but if the only published material about the concept is in companies who are only providing information as part of their advertisements to sell their courses then this Wikipedia article should probably be deleted or moved to beer tasting.

You are not promoting any private company over any other. There is lots of room on Wikipedia for articles on private companies and their articles, but advertisement from private companies should not be the foundation of an article which is about a concept rather than a product or private company.

Looking at the sources in this article I think they are all shaky. What are the best 1-2 sources you know for talking about the concept of a beer sommelier, which is supposed to be a profession distinct from the concept of beer tasting. See Sommelier and Wine tasting for examples of how the distinction could be presented.

Thanks for talking this through with me. If you have something, share, and if not, maybe we should wait some weeks or months to see if anyone else comments. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:52, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi :Blueraspberry You have deleted the information about certifying bodies which I feel is relevant to the article. The page on Sommelier has similar entries and I used that as a guide for this page. Obviously someone had put in an irrelevant addition which needed to be removed, but in my opinion you have thrown the baby out with the bathwater, and the article which has stood fairly unchanged for over a year is now back to a stub. Many pages mention private companies and organisations and as this (did) mention all the education and certification bodies then one is not promoted over another. Firebuild (talk) 22:25, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Use of "cicerone" as an alternative term

Hello Tthompson1! You are really taking to Wikipedia as a new participant. Thanks for adding all the information with citations to beer related articles. I removed what you added to the "Beer sommelier" article because the term "cicerone" which you shared is a trademarked marketing term, and not a general word for the profession with that skill set. The reference you shared describes this as well. It would be biased of Wikipedia to present that one commercial entity as the standard for controlling this expertise. If you have concerns, then please share. Blue Rasberry (talk) 17:05, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

I understand your concerns above, but I think the fact that Merriam-Webster is talking more of the term (though not yet adding it to their dictionary) suggests that this year is being taken more seriously than a trademarked ten of one company. See the reference I attached to the entry for cicerone. Tomelwood (talk) 19:40, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

[typos corrected] I understand your concerns above, but I think the fact that Merriam-Webster is taking note of the term (though not yet adding the word to their dictionary) suggests that this term is being taken more seriously than just as a trademarked term emanated by one company. See the reference I attached to the entry for cicerone. Tomelwood (talk) 19:43, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

Sources for description

At the moment, there is not a single citation in the "Description" section. I am not sure where you would find that kind of info but it sounds pretty unencyclopedic as is. The first line is blatently incorrect

"The work of a beer sommelier is varied due to its infancy and the broadness of the beer and brewing industry."

Considering we have been brewing beer for over 5000 years, you can hardly call the brewing industry "in its infancy". Perhaps a better approach would be attributing the newly created profession to the recent rise in popularity of microbreweries but that would need evidence to make that claim. The last line about independent beer sommeliers sounds like it was written by one. Does anyone else think this section should be removed until it can be properly written? 69.123.113.251 (talk) 19:02, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

That sentence doesn't say that the brewing industry is in its infancy; it says the work of a beer sommelier is in its infancy. Still, the lack of citations is a concern. -- Pemilligan (talk) 02:46, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Secondary source for cicerone.org

The source (http://cicerone.org/content/why-cicerone-0) that was provided with this edit, is an example of a wp:primary source, so I have reverted the (third) attempt at inserting the content, and warned the IP on their user talk page: [1]. I think that in this case a good wp:secondary source is needed, one that backs the proposed content. - DVdm (talk) 20:01, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Hi. Thanks @DVdm: for doing this. I would also note that information about the Cicerone program in general is out of the depth of this article. At most the article should link to the Cicerone article. Or, it should have a fulsome section about various sommelier certification programs. The second sentence in the intro is out of place as well. It's uncited, and in a way an advertisement for the Cicerone program. Prof. Mc (talk) 20:25, 6 January 2016 (UTC)