Talk:Belz (Hasidic dynasty)

Plagiarism?

I just noted the reference which someone added to this page on July 24, and which jdfwolff deleted the same day. It seems that most of the Wikipedia entry was lifted from this article on HasidicNews.com! Exact wording was repeated in the History, Controversy, and Belz Today sections. When I first read the Wikipedia article, I wondered why the Controversy was mentioned so briefly and out of context, and now I see why: the whole section was simply lifted verbatim from this HasidicNews.com article. What do we do now?Yoninah 19:19, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Remove it, or rewrite it in a shorter form with mentioning the source. It is a copyvio. JFW | T@lk 21:47, 25 July 2005 (UTC

Okay, I condensed the sections and took the emphasis off the controversy (although this matter is still mentioned). Now, could anyone familiar with the current Belzer Rebbe put in a word about his personality or reputation?Yoninah 12:03, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Split the history sections?

Would it perhaps be a good idea to divide up some of the history sections and place them as additional background in each of the rebbe's biographies? In particular, discussing Aharon's wartime escapades seems more appropriate for his own page rather than a page on Belz Hasidism. Ditto for some of the modern-day Belz/Satmar wars which seems to have more to do with Yissachar Dov Rokeach than Belz, per se, although obviously the two bleed into each other.

I'm happy to do it if someone gives me the go-ahead. User:ShalomShlomo 01:57, 02 December 2005

Go ahead? Naa... Welcome!

• Hey ShalomShlomo: Around here you don't need any "go ahead" as along as you have read the official welcome, so here goes, I am putting it here so that you can read the "official" Wikipedia guidelines for writing and editind articles:

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Belz dynastic succession

Should Mordechai of Bilgorai be in this section, seeing as how he was not actually a rebbe? ShalomShlomo 02:13, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

References

I've reverted the HasidicNews reference. Seeing as how a great deal of the article seems to come from there as a source (see first entry on this talk page), it seems appropriate to cite it. Is there a specific reason it was removed?ShalomShlomo 20:48, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

REPLY: Yes, there is. That site is about as Jewish as 'jewsforjesus.com'. It's an Islamic missionary site which mixes positive and (VERY) negative information. If you check the site a bit further (the links etc.) you'll realize. There is nothing Jewish about that site and I don't want other Jews to reach that site. Hope you understand. I'll remove the link again - I'm sorry, but I hope you can agree with me now. --Daniel575 21:18, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I still disagree. Much of the material seems to have come from there; therefore it should be cited. Are you going to go to every Hasidic page that cites this place and remove them, too? Just because you don't like the place doesn't mean it can be used without citation. Should we not cite Mein Kampf on the page about Hitler because someone might read it? ShalomShlomo 11:04, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's a plain fact. The site gives VERY negative information, plain lies, about Hasidism. Have you ever read it's FAQ section? Try it. You'll be shocked. It consists of lies, lies and lies. If you post any links to that site here on Wikipedia, non-suspecting people from this forum will go there, will think that it is an honest serious site which is perfectly fine to read and that the information there can be trusted. Someone who knows nothing about Hasidism will read that site and believe what it says. It's a hate-sowing site that should not be linked anywhere. I hope you can understand, please, that it is a site that does not belong anywhere on Wikipedia. I've been following that site for a while -- once, a few people posted on it's message board (forum), and they discovered together that the site was a fake, a set-up intended to spread a very negative image of Hasidic Judaism (and Orthodox Judaism in general), and subsequently the forum was closed, as you will see if you try to open it now. Doesn't that say enough? Once people discovered it, the forum was closed, and the site is also no longer maintained. If you will look at the 'News' section, you will see that it is all only lashon hara, hate-sowing, spreading horrible bad tales about chassidim, so that other people will be scared away from chassidus and have a very negative image of chassidus in general. Please spend some more time investigating the site, I'm sure you'll agree with my assessment then. --Daniel575 20:54, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

But, AGAIN, it is a major source of information for the early history section. Per the rules, it HAS to be cited. Otherwise it's stealing that place's info (which you don't seem to have a problem being here) without crediting it. ShalomShlomo 18:20, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Most of their information is probably also simply copied from other sources, I don't know from where. Have you taken a closer look at the site by now? Don't you see what I see? Perhaps it's because you're not so much familiar with orthodox Jewish life (since you're agnostic, according to your profile). I can assure you that the site is full of dirty lies, trying to spread a hateful and negative message about orthodox Jews. Which is not in line with what Wikipedia stands for. According to your logic, why not include a link to Stormfront on the website on Marten Luther King and call it a reliable independent source of information? Would you do that? --Daniel575 19:43, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

If the information is bad, find it somewhere else. I've taken a look at the site before and concurr that quite a bit of it is unflattering, but their history sections seem pretty reliable (I notice that you have yet to challenge this point, or attempt to lobby against the sections of the article that were obviously lifted from it in its earliest stages). As to your example- I would have avoided using information from Stormfront in the first place, and if I wanted to avoid citing it, would do the grunt-work to find the information elsewhere. I would not support cutting-and-pasting large sections of an internet page and then refusing to cite it. ShalomShlomo 17:10, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I also changed "Qiriat Belz" to "Kiryat Belz" since that is the more common, more logical and easier to use spelling. And "Beit hamedresh" should be "Beit HaMidrash" (actually everyone there calls it "Beis HaMidrash", I'm not sure on whether to write Beit or Beis). --Daniel575 21:39, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Palestine versus Eretz Yisrael

84.9.49.114- Considering that at the time of the Belzer's immigration to E.Y., the region was still legally known as the British Mandate of Palestine, I think that it would be more appropriate to refer to it as such. British Eretz Yisrael makes no sense. Are we going to start changing various other biographies to refer to the land before WWI as "Ottoman Eretz Yisrael"? ShalomShlomo 05:59, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Don't read anything into it; it was my mistake. Please make the change as you see fit. Yoninah 21:01, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

No problem, Yoninah, just trying to get/keep things consistent. ShalomShlomo 04:42, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Famous curse: there is a story that when Joseph Kennedy just before WWII used his influence as the U.S. Ambassador to the UK to prevent Jews in German held territories being granted visas (and safety) to the US, the Rebbe cursed him and his entire family for his actions - many believe that the problems of the family (down to the drunk driving accident of Patrick Kennedy) all date to that curse - does anyone have a source for that and want to place that in the story?Incorrect 01:24, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

The Bach and Belz

hello everyone

Since the Bach was Rabbi in the city of Belz before rabbi Sholom Rokeach (the sar sholom), the minhagim of the belzer chassidus in many cases are according to the pesaqim of the bach- such as having the sefrei torah laying flat in the ark instead of standing up.

Wikicide 19:46, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Maaseh Rokeach

shouldn't he be mentioned somewhere?- its the belzer dynasty, and even if he wasnt rebbe in the town of belz the dynasty does bging with him...Wikicide 19:51, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Famous 1944 Belzer rebbe speech

I wonder (or do I?) why this article completely ignore the famous 1944 speech where the Belzer rebbe advised Jews to stay in Hungary since they would not be harmed by the Nazis. I think this is too important a point to miss in an article about Belz. I would like to hear opinions before adding this to the article.Danielcohn 22:15, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

What's a good reference for that? I've heard rumors that the text has been expunged in many places. Vonfraginoff 13:48, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

The Belz World Center

I don't believe it is the largest shul in the world (albeit it's huge— I have seen it). Please provide evidence.--Redaktor 05:51, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

depends on how you define shul, and on how you define large, etc... "larges" doesn't usualy mean much of anything, anyone can claim it if you twist the definitions in your favor. (i remember once commenting that temple beit immanuel can't qualify as the largest jewish house of worship in the world because, after all, they don't even have sabbath prayers on Saturday.)85.65.175.90 (talk) 13:45, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

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"Hasidut"

There is a wiki article Hasidut but that doesn't help - what exactly does it mean here?--2607:FEA8:D5DF:F3D9:C87:9B39:6009:E606 (talk) 19:30, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

A Hasidut is a Chassidic group. Belz is a Chassidic group, led by a Rebbe. Yoninah (talk) 19:39, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

thank you! Since you're here, is HaMidrash under the photo of the Great Synagogue a typo?--2607:FEA8:D5DF:F3D9:C87:9B39:6009:E606 (talk) 20:03, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

'historically Crown of the Kingdom of Poland"

The way I read that sentence, it seemed as if the town of Belz was the CKP. Perhaps it could be written "the region historically known as the CKP" --2607:FEA8:D5DF:F3D9:A4CD:8FEC:A8DA:65F5 (talk) 16:20, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

names in lede

Hello, the names in the lede are confusing. Why is the last name Rokeach used twice and then dropped? Only later do you discover that they are Rokeach as well. --2607:FEA8:D5DF:F3D9:A4CD:8FEC:A8DA:65F5 (talk) 17:45, 8 May 2020 (UTC)