Talk:Bernard Newman (designer)
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Newman's role at RKO studios[edit]
It should be remembered that Newman didn't personally design all of the gowns for which he is given film credit. From the 30s to the 50s most Hollywood studios had large art departments, music departments, and costume design departments. For example, RKO's art department was led by Van Nest Polglase, but most of the design work on the Astaire-Rogers pictures was done by Carroll Clark and his team. Polglase gets the film credit (with an acknowledgment of Clark as "assistant"). Newman was in the same category: not only did he not design the famous Rogers dress in Top Hat - that was Rogers own creation, he gets the screen credit for gowns in Follow the Fleet, even though the famous dress Rogers wears in "Let's Face the Music and Dance" was designed by Jean-Louis Bertault, who was featured discussing the garment in a recent ARTE TV documentary L'Art de Fred Astaire. D7240 (talk) 19:14, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
- Yes and no. As far as I can tell, Rogers suggested a blue dress with feathers. To turn this basic idea into the gown seen in the movie, you still need a designer. It's not as if he just had to follow the model completely designed by Rogers, she had only given him the basic idea. She claims to have "designed" it, but there is no indication that she actually made a design beyond the description given above. Fram (talk) 07:22, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- That's why I chose the language "to Rogers's specifications". But in her autobiography Rogers bluntly states she "designed the dress" (TCM left this out of their article - a good example of why it is important to consult primary sources - consult WP:V for guidance on sources) and if you consult her autobiography you will see that she was very involved in dress design, hair styles and make-up throughout her career. We have independent evidence for this: on The Story of Vernon and Irene Castle she personally redesigned many of the dresses designed by Irene Castle - who receives sole credit for Rogers's gowns, and which led to furious rows between both women, with RKO paying Castle off to get rid of her. Also note that she is careful not to make claims in regard to some of the other famous dresses - for example, the one in "Let's Face the Music and Dance" or those designed by Walter Plunkett for Flying Down to Rio or The Gay Divorcee. Of course no-one knows exactly where Rogers input ended and Newman took over, but in both of your edits you excluded any mention of Rogers's contribution. In the light of the published record, that's not acceptable. D7240 (talk) 12:19, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- True (certainly for the original version, my second was more neutral, I think). I hadn't realised that she was so involved, it seemed more like a case of the film actress overstating her role, while the real work was done by the designer. While this is not unusual, it was apparently not what happened here. I'm perfectly happy with the current version! Fram (talk) 13:26, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- That's why I chose the language "to Rogers's specifications". But in her autobiography Rogers bluntly states she "designed the dress" (TCM left this out of their article - a good example of why it is important to consult primary sources - consult WP:V for guidance on sources) and if you consult her autobiography you will see that she was very involved in dress design, hair styles and make-up throughout her career. We have independent evidence for this: on The Story of Vernon and Irene Castle she personally redesigned many of the dresses designed by Irene Castle - who receives sole credit for Rogers's gowns, and which led to furious rows between both women, with RKO paying Castle off to get rid of her. Also note that she is careful not to make claims in regard to some of the other famous dresses - for example, the one in "Let's Face the Music and Dance" or those designed by Walter Plunkett for Flying Down to Rio or The Gay Divorcee. Of course no-one knows exactly where Rogers input ended and Newman took over, but in both of your edits you excluded any mention of Rogers's contribution. In the light of the published record, that's not acceptable. D7240 (talk) 12:19, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
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