Talk:Bert Jansch/GA1

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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GA Reassessment

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As part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles' Project quality task force ("GA Sweeps"), all old good articles are being re-reviewed to ensure that they meet current good article criteria (as detailed at WP:WIAGA.) I have determined that this article needs some work to meet current criteria, outlined below:

• Apparently unsourced statements:
  • "He also met and shared a flat with Robin Williamson,[fixed] with whom he travelled to London in 1963." [fixed] (they were friends in London but don't seem to have travelled together).
  • "After a stint as a nurseryman, Jansch became a full-time musician and spent two years playing one-night stands in British folk clubs. This was a musical apprenticeship that exposed him to a range of influences, including Martin Carthy and Ian Campbell, but especially Anne Briggs, from whom he learned some of the songs (such as "Blackwaterside" and "Reynardine") that would later feature strongly in his recording career." [fixed]
  • "In his early career, Jansch was sometimes characterized as a British Bob Dylan. [fixed] This, however, was misleading, in that Jansch's best work has always been fundamentally instrument-driven unlike Dylan's which is primarily lyric-based."
  • "Jansch followed his first album with two more, produced in quick succession: It Don't Bother Me and Jack Orion—which contained his first recording of "Blackwaterside", later to be taken up by Jimmy Page and recorded by Led Zeppelin as "Black Mountain Side"." [fixed]
  • "Pentangle split up in 1973, and Jansch and his wife bought a farm near Lampeter, in Wales, and withdrew temporarily from the concert circuit." [fixed]
  • "Jansch and Clements continued the work they had started before Jansch's illness, resulting in the 1988 Leather Launderette album."[fixed]
  • "Since 1995, Jansch has appeared frequently at the 12 Bar Club in Denmark Street, London. Live at the 12 Bar was originally a bootleg, but was of studio standard, and issued officially in 1996. [fixed] In 2002 Jansch, Bernard Butler and Johnny "Guitar" Hodge performed live together at the Jazz Cafe, London." [fixed]
  • "In 2007, he featured on Babyshambles album, Shotter's Nation, playing acoustic guitar in the song "The Lost Art of Murder". After recording, he accompanied Babyshambles' lead singer Pete Doherty on several of his acoustic gigs, and performed on the famous Pete and Carl Reunion Gig, where ex-Libertines and Dirty Pretty Things singer Carl Barat joined Doherty on stage to the delight of thousands of fans." [fixed]
  • "Due to an unexpected illness, he had to cancel a 22 date North American tour on June 23 2009. The tour was about about to start on the 26th. Jansch's website read this: Bert is very sorry to be missing the tour, and apologises to all the fans who were hoping to see him. He is looking forward to rescheduling as soon as possible.” [fixed]
  • "Bert Jansch's musical influences are many and varied: folk (Anne Briggs and A.L. Lloyd); jazz (Charlie Mingus and John Coltrane); early music (John Renbourn and Julian Bream); Indian music (Ravi Shankar) and many others. From these, he has distilled his own unmistakable guitar style." Section expanded and rewritten. Added McGhee and Graham who were probably the most influential. Lost Shankar and Coltrane. I can't find citations for them, though they were probably indirect influences via Graham. I think this is now fixed but would welcome views
  • "However, it is his acoustic guitar playing that sets him apart from other folk musicians." I've changed "....sets him apart from other folk musicians" to "is most notable". This pretty much a statement of fact but I think the cited quotes support it
  • Much of the "Influence" section.Citations all fixed except one which is cn-tagged
• Paragraphs require at least three paragraphs; all the one or two-sentence sections throughout the article need to be expanded, merged or cut. I think these are all fixed except for the pronunciation note which seems worth keeping separate. Also not sure about the section on influences, which is a bullet list of individual sentences
• Throughout the article there are non-free images used for purely decorative purposes, in violation of WP:NFCC. File:Bert jansch.png, File:RosemaryLane.png, File:Avocet-jansch.png, File:BlackSwan.png. [fixed]

I am putting the article on hold for seven days pending improvement on the above. Please keep me appraised of progress on this page. Thanks, Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 20:31, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your assessment. Looking down the list, I think the required work is quite achievable. In particular, a lot of the missing citations have arisen because an existing citation was, at the time of writing, implied (in the editor's mind!) to cover two sentences, or even a whole paragraph. So in many cases, the citations will be duplicates of others already in the article. However, you'll appreciate that there is quite a lot of work involved, because it will mean re-checking the original sources, and several of these are printed books, not online sites. I'll make a start on it but I may need to plead for an extension to your seven day deadline. Bluewave (talk) 10:19, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for keeping me updated. Since you've been making good progress, I'd be willing to keep this open longer if you've got to fetch the books. I write apparently uncited because they don't have a trailing ref near them; even if the material is cited in the following paragraph, you should end your paragraphs with citations to make it clear :) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 14:56, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! And I agree about the citations....I wasn't whinging about them ;-) Bluewave (talk) 18:06, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

As of today, I think the problems listed above have all been addressed, but I'd welcome your views on this. One thing that wasn't explicitly mentioned, but I don't much like, is the list format of the "influences" section. Lists always look like a lazy way to write an article, and they just encourage people to add to them. The section could be rewritten as continuous prose but might end up rather bitty, which could be even worse. Any views (on this or any other aspect of improving the article)? Bluewave (talk) 16:14, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I suppose it could be prosified. You keep the bits which have additional info (""Angie" (Jansch's version of the Graham tune) was his favourite, and would drive Oldfield to call his first band (with sister Sally) "The Sallyangie".") and then streamline all the other artists that just cite him as an influence into a sentence ("Other artists... blah blah blah"). There's still some citations missing in the article however. Also, I think you could move the pronunciation to the lead or early life, but how isrec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic a reliable source? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 17:35, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I'll maybe have a go at "prosifying" offline and see how it turns out. I thought I'd addressed all the missing cites that you specifically asked for, but I'll go through the article again over the next couple of days, while I've got the Harper biography to hand and check any areas where there are unsourced statements (so please don't feel the need to go through it again yourself til I've done that). I seem to remember that the pronunciation section was edited by his son Adam Jansch. It's one of those cases where the information is true and useful but the citation is very weak. I'll see if I can find a better cite. Bluewave (talk) 18:11, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Has any progress been made on the above? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 01:12, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi David. I believe I have fixed all the points that you raised originally. Also fixed other missing citations. I have moved the pronunciation note, as you suggested. Also prosified the influence section. I posted a draft on the talk page for comment and got one supportive comment, so I've now edited that into the article. There are a couple of sentences tagged as needing cites. I don't know if this acceptable for a good article. If not, I'd rather take them out than fail GA for the sake of a couple of sentences. I'd welcome your views on whether you think we have successfully brought up the standard to meet the GA criteria. Thanks. Bluewave (talk) 13:49, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

All contentious statements need a citation; if they're tagged, they either need to be cited, the offending content removed, or the tag removed if you can say that it's unlikely the average reader would find it disputable (this is a tricky issue, however, and generally I'd say it's better safe than sorry.) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 19:44, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

OK thanks. I'll move any uncited statements to the talk page, to give anyone who feels strongly (they probably did at one time!) a chance to support them Bluewave (talk) 19:51, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

OK I've moved the uncited statements to the talk page and offered people the opportunity to find citations (if I don't do so first), so they are no longer an issue in the article. Bluewave (talk) 12:25, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Alright looks good enough to pass. Thanks for your hard work on the article. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 21:56, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.