Talk:Besa (Albanian culture)

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A fact from Besa (Albanian culture) appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 15 November 2009 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that because of the Albanian Muslim concept of Besa, Albanians saved about 2000 Jews from the Holocaust during World War II?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2009/November.

Wikipedia

"Denmark and Albania are the only countries conquered by the Nazis that actively refused to cooperate with them"[edit]

Here's my reasons to take the sentence out:

Bulgaria remained an independent country during WWII and it was part of the Axis between 1941 and 1944. It didn't turn its Jews over to the Nazis and didn't send any troops to assist the Nazi war effort in the east, but otherwise co-operated. Was Bulgaria a "conquered country"?
What does 'conquered' mean and what is a 'country'? In World War II, Albania was part of the Italian Empire (it was not occupied by the Nazis like Denmark). Was it a country if it was not independent?
Moreover, Denmark did not "actively refuse to cooperate". Denmark's pre-invasion institutions remained active in the protectorate and co-operated with the Nazis to a great extent (read Occupation of Denmark).

As I hope you can see now, the sentence that you insist on including is wrong on multiple levels. It just doesn't seem right to make any comparisons to Denmark (or even Bulgaria). Todor →Bozhinov 13:18, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why don't you just add Bulgaria to it with a ref rather than remove the sentence? It can be reworded perhaps but I think it's an important point to mention. — Rlevse • Talk • 20:22, 14 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV[edit]

I didn't want to start tagging the article since it is on the DYK list but it does have some neutrality issues. Apart from the concerns above the following statement is troublesome.

Albanians are noted for their lack of religious hatred.

The statement is sourced but it is still a troublesome statement. The problem with statements like this is that they are not quantitative and are, therefore, inherently subjective. If the statement is not saying something that is to grandiose then making the statement with a source is ok. But things like this are problematic. It is better to put in a quote of some famous person or author. That way you are not asserting anything yourself. For this specific statement something like the following might be preferable.

The U.S. ambassador to Albania once wrote in 1934,

“

... there is no trace of any discrimination against Jews in Albania, because Albania happens to be one of the rare lands in Europe today where religious prejudice and hate do not exist, even though Albanians themselves are divided into three faiths.^[1]

”

— Herman Bernstein, U.S. Ambassador to Albania

Also be very careful about using sources such as Yad Vashem. Such sources are generally viewed as activistic and would not be considered neutral enough to be a good source for topics such as this.

--Mcorazao (talk) 23:26, 15 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't object to the first one you mention being removed but since the other one is a sourced quote maybe we could find another source. — Rlevse • Talk • 23:38, 15 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Pettifer, James Nazarko, Mentor (2007). Strengthening Religious Tolerance for a Secure Civil Society in Albania and the Southern Balkans. IOS Press. p. 101. ISBN 978-1-58603-779-6.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

Off my list[edit]

I am taking this off my watch list. I have no further interest in this article. — Rlevse • Talk • 18:12, 16 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Besa and religion[edit]

Besa has not a religious background, and not Muslim. It's written in the Kanun of Leke Dukagjini.--Albopedian (talk) 20:32, 18 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This article is a trainwreck.[edit]

Nothing in the introduction or "history" section has a citation. There is extreme bias in all of the claims regarding the origin of besa and the importance of besa. Also, the Albanian words for "Albania" and "Albanian" keep being used, as do phrases like "people of the Eagle". It's extremely weird, especially since there is nothing in the article that explain these terms.

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[1] Pettifer, James Nazarko, Mentor (2007). Strengthening Religious Tolerance for a Secure Civil Society in Albania and the Southern Balkans. IOS Press. p. 101. ISBN 978-1-58603-779-6.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

[1]