Talk:Betty Shabazz/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Pictures

ARE THIS PICTURES OF Betty Shabazz ARE OK?

[[1]], [[2]], [[3]], [[4]], [[5]], [[6]], [[7]], [[8]], [[9]]

IS THIS PICTURE OF Betty Shabazz & Coretta Scott King (The wife of Dr. Martin Luther King) ARE OK?

[[10]] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Whitnerk (talk • contribs) 08:08, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Ilyasah shabazz growingupx.jpg

The image Image:Ilyasah shabazz growingupx.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

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This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --23:57, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

What difference does it make? Half the material on Wikipedia is in violation of copyright. 24.67.253.203 (talk) 17:06, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Hajj

It seems unnecessary to include Ms. Shabazz's activites during her pilgrimage to Mecca. The article says she made Hajj. If she made Hajj, it's understood that she did these things, as opposed to Umrah, during which she may or may not have.Mk5384 (talk) 08:56, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

I may have followed her biography a little too closely in this; Rickford spends nine pages describing Shabazz's hajj. However, without that sentence, the section seems a little bare. What do you think? — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 16:53, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
Well, perhaps the general public; at least those who are not Muslims, would not know the difference between Haaj and Umrah. When I said that the fact that she did these things should be taken for granted, I didn't take that into account.Mk5384 (talk) 17:47, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Abuse

I don't think that it is necessary to include the phrase, "by most accounts", in the sentence about Ms. Shabazz suffering abuse as a child. If a reliable source contradicted the belief that she was abused, then it would be logical to include that. I'm not aware of any source that denies that Ms. Shabazz was abused as a youth.Mk5384 (talk) 10:29, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Here's what the source says:
"How Betty herself was treated as a small child is unclear, though there is some hearsay and legend in the Shabazz family."[11]
Read pages 7 and 8 and let me know what you think. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 17:02, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
I know I've read of abuse elsewhere, but the sources don't come immediately to mind. If this is the only source we have to go on, then perhaps it's best to leave it as is.Mk5384 (talk) 17:50, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Arrest of Qubilah Shabazz

I added the word "allegedly" to the part about her arrest for conspiring to murder Minister Farakhan. As the article states, Qubilah Shabazz admitted no guilt, as part of the plea deal. Under those circumstances, I think the word allegedly is necessary.Mk5384 (talk) 07:45, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Good catch. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 18:36, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Betty Shabazz/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: BelovedFreak 19:50, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

GA review (see here for criteria)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS):
    Well written, just a few issues outlined below.
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
    External links go where they should. There's a good range of reliable sources used. No uncited portions.
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
    As far as I can tell it covers all the main points (with the minor exception of her name, wueried below in prose section) and is focussed.
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
    Neutral and without bias.
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
    a couple of recent reversions but most recent edits seem to be improving the article to this state.
  6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
    Image use is ok, but rationales could do with a bit of work
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:

Prose/MoS

Early years

  • "Neither Georgia nor Michigan has been able to locate her birth certificate." - Don't know if it's just me, but I'm not sure what you mean by this sentence. I get the gist, but presumably the state of Georgia itself has not been looking for her birth certificate?
  • "By most accounts, Ollie Mae Sanders neglected or abused Betty Sanders" - what exactly is meant by abuse? As far as I know, neglect is generally considered a form of abuse, so it shouldn't be "neglected or abused"
  • You have "African-American" here and later on, you have "African American" with no hyphen
    • It's my understanding that when "African American" is used as a noun, it doesn't get a hyphen, but it should be hyphenated when used as an adjective (as it is here). If you don't agree, I'll remove the hyphen. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 20:51, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
      • I don't disagree, just didn't know that! No problem.--BelovedFreak 21:47, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
    • With respect to the abuse, the source says, "How Betty herself was treated as a small child is unclear, though there is some hearsay and legend in the Shabazz family." Her grandmother found "an ugly sore" on her neck. In one interview, her foster mother said her mother had been "mean" to her, but didn't elaborate. In another interview, the foster mother said she didn't know the specifics of the mistreatment. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 01:56, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
I feel certain that I have read of Ms. Shabazz being abused as a child elsewhere. If we're going to need another source to help this meet GA, I'll do some delving, and see what I can find.Mk5384 (talk) 06:49, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
  • I don't think you need to be more specific for GA, I think it's broad enough in that respect. Obviously an FAC may require a little more detail. My main gripe is that neglect is a form of abuse, at least by today's standards, so it was the sentence structure that was bothering me. I see you've changed that now, so it's fine. If you can find more detail/references about the nature of the abuse, that would be great, but I don't consider it necessary to pass GA.--BelovedFreak 08:00, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Nation of Islam

  • "After dinner, the woman asked Sanders to come to the Muslims' lecture. Shabazz agreed." - presumably "Shabazz" here should be "Sanders"
  • In the quote, "he was going someplace much more important than the podium.... He got to the podium" - is that ellipsis in the original? Or is it marking an omission from the original? If so, it should be as ... with a space on either side. I'm not sure that it shouldn't be like that even if it was the original. That's to say, some editors argue for changing original punctuation to be consistent with Wikipedia WP:MOS. However, my main concern is that if the ellipsis is your, it should be three periods, spaced. Same goes for the quote in the "Pilgrimage to Mecca" section.

General

  • Unless I'm completely missing something, it's not clear at what point she became known as Betty Shabazz, or why. Was it upon marrying Malcolm? I doubted that because you said that Betty X became a registered nurse on the day she got married. Then I thought maybe it was when she went to Mecca, but it just says that she received the name Bahiyah.
    • Upon becoming a Muslim, she was known as Betty X. Malcolm X began using the name Malik Shabazz around the time he left the Nation of Islam and made his pilgrimage (1964). Betty was referred to variously as Mrs. Malcolm X or Betty Shabazz in the press after Malcolm X's assassination. I wasn't able to find a source that said "as of this date, she changed her name", so I started using Shabazz after the couple left the Nation of Islam. Should I be clearer about that? — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 20:57, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
      • Well, if you can find anything to back it up, otherwise I understand why you've written it as it is. I just felt that I was missing something when I read it, that's all. Perhaps a sentence in the bit about leaving the Nation of Islam, even if, for lack of sources, you just have to say that Malcolm started using that name. Up to you.--BelovedFreak 21:49, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Images

  • The images are ok; one free and two non-free with fair use rationales. I do think that the two non-free ones could use a little work on the rationales, specifically the purpose for using the image in the article. "To illustrate the article" isn't really enough. I would add the fact that the subject is no longer living so it would be difficult to obtain a free image. The second image you could maybe say that it illustrates a key point in her life, and American history etc. I don't think there's a problem with using either of them, but just add a bit more to the rationales.

These are my main issues with the article. I also have a few more suggestions which I will outline below, but these will not impact on whether the article will pass or fail.

  • The first two citations for her date of birth could perhaps be combined into one cite, leading to a "notes" section (or with a different name; separate from your current notes section). I just think it would be aesthetically a bit better, avoiding two citations right on top of each other in that initial sentence, and moving the "note" away from the references (currently "notes") - hope that makes sense, I'm confusing myself now! You could then cite Rickford within the note at the bottom of the page.
  • Rather than wikilinking her daughter and grandson the way you have in the lead, I would actually name them. I don't see any reason to save it for later, especially as they are fairly well known in their own rights.
  • In the infobox, I would just link to Sunni Islam rather than to both articles separately. There's no real need to link to the Islam article there, readers will probably get all the need from the Sunni Islam article, and if not, can easily move on to Islam from there.
  • The "Leaving the Nation of Islam" section is very short and has short paragraphs. It just looks a little "choppy". Could the section be combined with another? or could the two paragraphs be combined?
  • It would be nice to have the date that she joined the Nation of Islam in the lead, and in the main text (although it's a little clearer there) just to provide context when you then give the date that they left.
  • In the lead, the "American racism" link seems a little unusual. Is that a common term in the US? If so, no problem. I was just wondering if maybe you should just leave it as "racism", but still with the same link that you have now. I'm just not familiar with "American racism" as a concept. Obviously I realise that racism is different in different places and times, but is it an actual recognised term or concept? As I say, if it is, no problem, just ignore me!

That's it; not too much to do. I'll put the article on hold so that you can address the issues. Please let me know if you have any questions or disagree with any of the comments. Really enjoyed reading it, by the way!--BelovedFreak 20:36, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. With respect to the date Shabazz joined the Nation of Islam, the source simply says "by late summer or fall 1956". — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 21:22, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
Ok, all pertinent issues have been dealt with, so I'm happy to list this as a good article. Well done!--BelovedFreak 20:20, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
Thank you. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 20:55, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Birth certificate

I noticed that my change regarding Shabazz's birth certificate was reverted, with the summary, "has been able to locate it" sounds like they're still looking for it. I see how it could give that impression, but I actually made the change for the reason that I thought "can locate it" made it sound like they were still looking. Obviously, my change did nothing to improve that. Would it be better to say "could locate it", or "was able to locate it"? Just a thought.Mk5384 (talk) 05:20, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

I went ahead and made this change. Please let me know if anyone disagrees.Mk5384 (talk) 07:41, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
Sorry to waffle about this, but I went back to your original suggestion ("has been able to locate"). I think it's probably the best expression.
By the way, only a small number of people watch this page, so please continue to be bold in making changes. I appreciate the second pair of eyes looking it over. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 18:43, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
It's certainly my pleasure. And I didn't think that you were "waffling" at all. I'd love to see this make GA, and I'm glad to have the opportunity to assist. Any change that helps that goal is a good one.Mk5384 (talk) 06:51, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Death

I'm not sure if it's made clear in the article but by reading the section about Betty Shabazz's death, I can't clearly identify who the individual behind her murder is - the person resonsible for the fire.

It is clear it is someone named Malcolm Shabazz but confusing as to whether he is related to her, a non-relative or her son. When I immediately read it, I thought it was referring to her late husband which it obviously couldn't be as he died decades earlier. Any ideas how this could be clarified?

It may have been clarified in an earlier passage in the entry but should be clarified in the Death section. UK 007 (talk) 17:25, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Hyperbole, or just plain sloppy writing?

The "After the assassination section opens with "Shabazz could not sleep for two weeks after Malcolm X's assassination. She suffered from nightmares......". It is doubtful anyone can not sleep for two weeks, and of course if you are not asleep you don't experience nightmares. Moriori (talk) 00:25, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

It's a case of relying too closely on the source. "Betty did not sleep for two weeks. Every time her eyes drooped, she would see Malcolm dropping like lumber.... The widow did not dare dream; she could not bear to relive the sickening thud of his head against the hardwood. So she lay awake, shrouded in withering silence until Poitier anesthetized her with diluted brandy and honey."[12] I'll fix it. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 00:52, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Death by arson

If no one has any good reason why her death from arson shouldn't be written about I'd like to hear it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.199.68.204 (talk) 22:53, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Arson is a specific crime. Nobody was charged with arson in Shabazz's death. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 03:00, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
"Malcolm Shabazz was sentenced to 18 months in juvenile detention for manslaughter and arson." Contradiction? Dwpaul (talk) 03:21, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
My mistake. It still doesn't justify the section heading "Death by arson" (instead of "Death"), which the IP was trying to add. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 01:15, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
No disagreement here. Dwpaul (talk) 01:42, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Betty's relationship with Malcolm

Should more be mentioned about the specifics of Betty & Malcolm's relationship? Being that their marriage is what makes her a notable person and such. Manning Marable's book, as well as other sources, goes into great detail about their strained relationship: his absence before and after her births, traveling for months at a time (including after the firebombing) and allegations of infidelity on her part which were barely contained secrets. For anyone else, it might amount to gossip, but given how central their marriage is to her biography, it might better describe how the marriage changed her as a person, for better and worse.--Chimino (talk) 23:31, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

There was, as you say, quite a bit of material in Marable's book about Malcolm and Betty's relationship. I never got a chance to update this article after reading it, but I would welcome anybody's help. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 02:35, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Marriage and family

This may seem quite trivial, but as we're going for GA, I think we should be as precise as possible. The article states that Malcolm X called Betty X, and asked her to marry him, and they were married on the same day". It then says, "by coincidence, Betty X became a registered nurse that same day." Here's the thing, and again, I apologise if it seems as though I'm splitting hairs-It seems to me, that Betty X was due to become an RN that day. The "coincidence", as I see it, was Malcolm X calling her to propose marriage on that same day.Mk5384 (talk) 10:27, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

I would be bold, and make a change, but I'm not exactly sure myself, how it should be worded.Mk5384 (talk) 10:30, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
When you apply for a license, the day it is approved is always up to chance. So it really was a coincidence that the State of N.Y. approved her nursing license the same day she got married. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 18:04, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
I see. Thank you for the explanation.Mk5384 (talk) 01:37, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
Also, the article states that, "Shabazz's share of the royalties from the Autobiography of Malcolm X was the equivalent of an annual salary". It should probably give at least a loose idea, as to with what occupation the "salary" would be comparable, as that could mean just about anything.Mk5384 (talk) 11:12, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
That's all Rickford says. ("Quarterly royalty checks ... provided the annual equivalent of a salary.") I was also curious how much the royalties were, because I would have added that to the article about the Autobiography. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 18:04, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Betty Shabazz never went by the moniker "Betty X." There is no evidence to suggest that she ever went by anything other than Sanders and Shabazz. Please supply credible sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.112.238.154 (talk) 05:35, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Use of the 'Betty X' Moniker

It's fairly well documented that Betty Shabazz only went by two names; Sanders and Shabazz. There's no evidence to suggest she ever went by the name "Betty X." It was a nickname later given to her that many have perceived as an offensive misnomer because of the sexist connotations and the fact that she, herself, never went by that name. I suggest that all references to the name "Betty X" be changed to one of her real names, either Shabazz or Sanders unless credible evidence is provided that definitively shows that she went by the moniker "Betty X." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.112.238.154 (talk) 05:35, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

If it's "fairly well documented", I assume you can provide some sources?
I can provide some counter-examples, such as the 1958 articles from the Pittsburgh Courier (here) and the New York Amsterdam News (here) about the wedding of Malcolm X and Betty X. Or you can search The Autobiography of Malcolm X, where she is referred to as Betty X on pages 231, 232, 233, 234, and 235. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 18:35, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
Fair enough. It's obvious that Malcolm referred to his wife as such...but, I'd still like to see some evidence that suggests that Betty Shabazz went by the moniker "Betty X". There's no proof that I can find that suggests that she ever went by anything other than Sanders or Shabazz. Labeling her as "Betty X" is questionable and slightly sexist. Unless there is evidence that she, herself, went by that name, I suggest it be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.112.238.154 (talk) 09:20, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
Please re-read my message. I provided links to two 1958 newspaper articles that refer to her as Betty X. You have yet to provide a single source to support your assertion that she didn't use that name. — MShabazz Talk/Stalk 13:33, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
Yes, I reviewed the links you provided; it's obvious Malcolm Little thought he owned Betty Sanders/Shabazz...at least enough to refer to her as "Betty X" in public interviews...but, there is absolutely NO proof whatsoever that SHE, herself, ever went by the moniker of "Betty X". It needs to be addressed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.112.238.154 (talk) 10:30, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
Did Malcolm X also own the Amsterdam News and the Pittsburgh Courier? Please provide a reliable source that supports your assertion that Betty Shabazz never used the name Betty X, that it was given to her posthumously, that it was offensive, that only Malcolm X used that name, or that it's sexist. You keep changing your assertions about "Betty X", but you haven't provided a source for any of them. — MShabazz Talk/Stalk 14:52, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

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