Talk:Bobby Heenan

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Date of Birth[edit]

A message was left on Category:Wikipedia resources for researchers in regards to this article. I'm copying it below:

"Bobby 'the brain' Heenan was born 11/1/1944. Please correct."

Good luck everyone. JesseW, the juggling janitor 09:01, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Heenan starts out his autobiography by stating this as his date of birth. However, deeper into the book, he makes a comment on his last days with the AWA which, if taken literally, would actually place his year of birth as being 1938 or 1939.RadioKAOS (talk) 00:12, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Heenan's DOB is still in dispute, BTW. The source used in the article for the 1944 date is IMDb, which from what I've seen on here over and over again, isn't to be regarded as a "reliable source." The OWW profile used repeatedly as a source for the article in general says November 1, 1943. Thankfully, our local library has a copy of Heenan's autobiography, because I haven't found my own copy yet. On page 5, starting chapter 2, Heenan writes: "Where do I start my story? I was born Raymond Louis Heenan in Chicago on November 1, 1944." On page 49 of the same book, he talks about the offer Vince made him to leave the AWA: "It was a chance to do more things. I was 44 and ready to make a change. I didn't want to work past 50." Obviously, Heenan is referring to an unspecified date towards the end of 1983. If the November 1 birthday is held to be legit (I wouldn't doubt it; Heenan displays all the traits of a good and loyal Scorpio), this makes him several years older than either the 1943 or 1944 dates would indicate. Web sites used as sources have a general tendency not to list THEIR sources. Probably because in many cases, the information appears to have been copied from some other source. Hope this helps.RadioKAOS (talk) 22:52, 15 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nickname[edit]

It seems Bobby used the nickname "Pretty Boy" longer than even he acknowledges. In his biography he indicates he changed from the "pretty boy" to "brain" shortly into his career. But, he was the "pretty boy" in the early 70s while teaming up with "luscious" Jimmy Valiant.

He made the switch when he left the WWA to work full time in the AWA in 1974. In his TV first appearance with Bockwinkel and Stevens, he makes a big deal of the "brain" name. 75.17.124.196 (talk) 21:29, 27 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In WWE's recent repackaging of AWA material, they contend that it happened about two years later in a TV skit. Bill Apter appeared to present magazine awards (now better known as PWI awards, except that PWI didn't exist back then) to Heenan and his charges. Stevens felt he was being slighted by Bockwinkel and Heenan during this segment and turned face on them. If I remember, WWE said that this occurred in December 1976, and also claimed that the genesis of the nickname came from a line he delivered during this promo: "Now I have a brain, a brain that nobody knows about". RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 02:51, 28 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Departure from WCW[edit]

"Toward the end of 1999, WCW began replacing Heenan on its weekly telecasts, as well as on pay-per-views. He was released by WCW in 2000 because the executives wanted a younger look for a more "MTV audience."

The citation to this entry does not mention anything about the MTV audience, so I am going to delete that part. I heard he was released because they were cutting costs (WCW released Bret Hart, Curt Henning, Torrie Wilson, and Scott Hall around the same time.) I just did a Google search and could not find the reason for his reason, but all sources indicated he was in fact released in November 2000. DrRisk13 (talk) 01:31, 14 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

On page 108 of his book, Bobby the Brain: Wrestling's Bad Boy Tells All, Bobby Heenan does say Vince Russo wanted more of an MTV look. Of course, that was when they brought in Mark Madden, so that may not actually be the case. The exact quote is "Russo didn't like me. He wanted a more youthful look, like an MTV look." HoytClagwell (talk) 03:05, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pillman Incident[edit]

It says his F-bomb was edited out of all WCW shows except for his DVD. I found a video with a TBS watermark, so im guessing that it did air, at some point, unedited prior to the DVD. Here is the video. http://youtube.com/watch?v=C_kNeKF9G84pillman —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.16.228.8 (talk) 15:48, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Possibly because this occurred on a Clash of the Champions, which was broadcast live on TBS, and that some people out there might have recorded their own copies off the air and not waited around for the WWE to sell them selectively edited portions on DVD or other media? You know, it just could be.

Back to Heenan's autobiography for a sec, he claimed that TBS erased the tapes of this event in response to this incident, but there appears to be indications that that really didn't happen.RadioKAOS (talk) 00:12, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Request to merge Brian Pillman Incident with WCW section[edit]

Is it really necessary for "Controversy" to have it's own section? I think it would make more sense for the Brian Pillman incident to be under his WCW career. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LordMaldad2000 (talk • contribs) 17:48, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Bobby Heenan's billed weight[edit]

it is listed on heenan's billed weight as 190 lbs his billed weight should be 246 lbs — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.80.121.226 (talk) 22:56, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Source in the article says 190. Have you got a source for 246? NiciVampireHeart 16:18, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Request page semi-protection[edit]

In light of the man's recent passing, I'm requesting the article be temporarily semi-protected in order to protect it against possible vandalism. Thank you. ADg2k14 (talk) 04:17, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Bobby The Brain Heenan[edit]

When I first saw Bobby Heenan perform it was in AWA in the early 70s and he was known as Gorgeous Bobby Heenan and the first wrestler I saw him manage was Blackjack Lanza and I did not see it on this page.

Yes it does. Blackjack Lanza appears six times in this. JTP (talk • contribs) 20:24, 19 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
He's already mentioned, but I added a sentence about just how important Heenan was to his career.LM2000 (talk) 05:45, 25 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Age/year of birth inconsistency[edit]

This article has Bobby Heenan down as a 1944 birth. However, the first paragraph under the heading ‘Professional wrestling career’ states:

“In 1965, Heenan became a regular in William "Dick the Bruiser" Afflis' Indianapolis-based WWA promotion both as wrestler and manager under the moniker "Pretty Boy" Bobby Heenan. That year, at the age of 17…”

This implies that Heenan was 17 years of age in 1965, which if his birth year of 1944 is affirmative, cannot possibly be correct. Heenan would have to have been born in 1947 or 1948 to be age 17 in that year. I suggest that the section be amended so that it says that Heenan was 20 or 21 years of age (which would be correct for a 1944 birth). JoeyofScotia (talk) 13:33, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, let me get that out of there. Whomever sourced it used a highly unreliable source. I'm just going to leave the age out of that paragraph. Thanks for catching that. Kjscotte34 (talk) 17:30, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You're not explaining what this highly unreliable source is. I have a feeling, but more on that later. I'm really glad the GA nomination has stalled, so there's an opportunity to work out various issues, this being perhaps the most important. I may still be able to find a copy of Bobby The Brain: Wrestling's Bad Boy Tells All at the local library. From what I remember reading it, someone cherry-picked portions of it to source what they thought would sound good to 21st-century wrestling fans, rather than what would offer a proper reflection of the subject. For instance, look at the absolute short shrift we give to his Georgia stint, even though he received national exposure there years before he did in any other place. My first memories of watching professional wrestling were of Heenan managing Killer Karl Kox and I've never lived anywhere near Georgia. Or "Later in 1975, with Heenan again in his corner, Bockwinkel captured his first of several AWA World Heavyweight Championships, ending the seven-year reign of perennial champion and AWA promoter Verne Gagne", except in that particular match, the key point in the finish was interference by Bobby Duncum, not anything having to do with Heenan.
Anyway, before I lose myself in tangents: in the article right this minute, I see a dumping ground of citations surrounding news coverage of his death, reflecting that there was no lockstep agreement among reliable sources as to his age at the time, with various sources mentioning both 72 and 73. These conflicting ages have both appeared in this article while Heenan was alive, and may offer clues as to the root. The 1943 birthdate appears to trace back to IMDB, which may be the highly unreliable source mentioned above. OTOH, the root for the 1944 birthdate comes from the very beginning of Bobby The Brain: Wrestling's Bad Boy Tells All where he explicitly states this. The problem with this "source" is that he directly contradicts this information later on in the book, suggesting that he was really born in 1938 or 1939 based on what he stated in that chapter. As Heenan's early life and entry into the business was literally the equivalent of running away from home to join the circus, there are obviously going to be problems verifying any claims. Despite seeing some top-tier media outlets among the citations reporting on his death, I highly doubt that any of them sent someone to Chicago or Indianapolis to perform this sort of fact-checking.
As for the date inconsistency: back then, you didn't enroll in a wrestling school, mainly because there weren't any. In Heenan's day, you had to befriend a wrestler and perform a whole lot of bitchwork for them until you became accepted by the rest of the boys. Sometimes, this took years. From what I remember reading in Wrestling's Bad Boy, Heenan began his formal association with Dick the Bruiser in 1961, not 1965, which is the year he actually began wrestling for him. Since there's been no dispute about Heenan's birthday, it seems that someone merely subtracted X from Y without taking into consideration that he was born late in the year and that it may not have been correct even disregarding the aforementioned inconsistencies. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 00:40, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry I'm out of town so I haven't had a chance to respond. The "unreliable" source comes from some wrestling database which not only says he was born in 1943, but also had the horrible math in there that was mentioned above. The source I used for his birthdate was the NY times, which we do consider a reliable source here. I suppose I could log onto the network and watch the Bobby Heenan DVD but I won't be able to do that until later. Kjscotte34 (talk) 10:02, 5 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think the unreliable source we keep talking about is Slam Wrestling, which is actually perfectly reliable per WP:PW/RS. In fact, a lot of sources have claimed he died at 73, including Pro Wresting Insider, Toronto Sun, Miami Herald and Chicago Tribune. I raised the discrepancy between the birth date when he first died but didn't get a lot of responses. I'm more included to believe that he died at age 72; that's what Dave Meltzer and Wade Keller reported and I think they'd be more likely to know. I could be wrong about that though. The in-ring debut age seems to be apocryphal regardless of which birth year is right but I've read that in more than one source too. That could be chalked up to kayfabe or stories being shared over the years like Chinese whispers. I'm glad we were able to get that much cleared up.LM2000 (talk) 05:47, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I finally was able to watch part of the Bobby Heenan DVD that came out in 2010. I'm not sure how to cite it, but in the one chapter, the narrator reads "On November 1, 1944, the world was introduced to Bobby Heenan." I would assume we can consider that a reliable source, considering they signed his paycheck and the DVD was made while he was alive. I don't think the birthdate will be an issue for a bit, at least not until the page protection expires. Kjscotte34 (talk) 16:47, 28 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I watched this to confirm and the documentary does indeed say that. I'll add the source to the article but I'm a little wary of recognizing this as the definitive source, more so than the likes of the Chicago Tribune and Miami Herald.LM2000 (talk) 05:47, 3 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I was able to find Bad Boy Tells All and he confirms the 1944 birth date on page five. That should be the definitive source, I'm not sure why he would make it up. It's more likely the other sources were duped by the fake birth year a user submitted on IMDb like RadioKAOS pointed out.LM2000 (talk) 06:27, 3 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the help on this. Hopefully the Myanmar IP addresses will leave it alone when the page protection expires. Kjscotte34 (talk) 23:55, 3 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Bobby Heenan/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Lee Vilenski (talk · contribs) 08:43, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]


Opening Comments[edit]

I feel pretty bad that this article has been nominated for such a long time, without a review. I know of Bobby Heenan, but I'm not exactly fully versed in his work, so hopefully I'll learn a few things from the review. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 08:43, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I am planning on reviewing this article for GA Status, over the next couple of days. Thank you for nominating the article for GA status. I hope I will learn some new information, and that my feedback is helpful.

If nominators or editors could refrain from updating the particular section that I am updating until it is complete, I would appreciate it to remove a edit conflict. Please address concerns in the section that has been completed above (If I've raised concerns up to references, feel free to comment on things like the lede.)

I generally provide an overview of things I read through the article on a first glance. Then do a thorough sweep of the article after the feedback is addressed. After this, I will present the pass/failure. I will use strikethrough tags when concerns are met. Even if something is obvious why my concern is met, please leave a message as courtesy.

Best of luck! you can also use the {{done}} tag to state when something is addressed. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 11:18, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Immediate Failures[edit]

  • It is a long way from meeting any one of the six good article criteria - The article is of sufficient quality to be reviewable for GA
  • It contains copyright infringements - A copyvio search brought up a Wikia, but it's likely a copy violation OF wikipedia.
  • It has, or needs, cleanup banners that are unquestionably still valid. These include {{cleanup}}, {{POV}}, {{unreferenced}} or large numbers of {{citation needed}}, {{clarify}}, or similar tags. (See also {{QF-tags}}). - No issues with tags.
  • It is not stable due to edit warring on the page. - Occasional IP edits get reverted. Hardly an edit war.

Links[edit]

  • No Disambiguation links
  • Two warning Links - reference 8, and 36. Both still work, but the first is expiring, so will need an archive made, if possible.
    •  Done

Prose[edit]

Lede[edit]

  • Lede's only need references if the information is really controversial and could not be sourced anywhere else in the article. If the date of birth is important to have a reference, move it to the infobox.
    • This birth date is more controversial than one would think. We apparently need a reference, but I did move it to infbox.
  • was an American professional wrestling manager, wrestler, comedian and color commentator - feels odd to me, how this is phrased. You could read this as "American Pro wrestling manager, pro wrestling wrestler, comedian and color commentator", which is bad grammically, or read as "Pro wrestling manager, wrestler, comedian...", but the word wrestler would suggest he was an olympic style wrestler. I'd also argue he's better known for being on commentary than as an in-ring worker. Maybe read "American professional wrestling manager, color commentator, wrestler and comedian", which removes all ambiguity.
    •  Done
  • Frequently described as the greatest professional wrestling manager of all time, he was known for his skill in drawing negative reactions for himself and his wrestlers - This is pretty bad way to describe heat. "Negative reactions" isn't exactly what he did, and this would indicate he got bad reactions backstage, and from the crowd, or even outside of the shows.
    • Struggled with this one a little bit, how is the updated version?
      • Yeah, that's better. Less ambiguous  Done
  • whom he led to the AWA World Heavyweight Championship - Should say led to WIN the title.
    •  Done
  • Lede needs a little expansion too. Doesn't mention his television works or his death.
    •  Done

Main body[edit]

  • "Heenan dropped out of school in the eighth grade to support his mother and grandmother." - Should say what age he was, rather than the grade. As an Englishman, I have no idea when the eighth grade is, so would be better to be more worldwide.
    • This is something I would like to add but I don't think I can. In the States, eighth grade is generally 13 or 14 but he could have been pushed ahead or stayed back a year. Sources that mention this say "eighth grade" without an age, I think it would be WP:OR to go further.
  • "Always a fan of wrestling growing up in Chicago and Indianapolis, he started in the wrestling profession early on, carrying bags and jackets for the wrestlers, and selling refreshments at the events." - Wording "always a fan", should be "As a fan". Also, remove "the" before events.
    •  Done
  • "Heenan became a regular in William "Dick the Bruiser" Afflis' Indianapolis-based" - Should probably either say his name, or his ringname, not both. I'd lean real name, as he's the promoter.
    • I rephrased because both names are needed in article. It's like Steve Austin feuding with Mr. McMahon while being employed by Vince McMahon in reality.
  • The article goes from him being a fan to - He's a regular wrestler and manager... What happened to his training?
    • I suspected he had no formal training, which wasn't unusual in those days, because no sources mentioned it. I added two sentences based on what he wrote about it in his autobiography.
  • "In particular, Heenan was credited with making Blackjack Lanza one of the top wrestling villains in the country." - Needs a citation.
    •  Done
  • He also occasionally wrestled with a storyline "brother" Guy Heenan, the aforementioned Guy Mitchell. - Guy is mentioned earlier in the article as passing, and I actually missed it. Maybe simply put "Guy Heenan, played by Guy Mitchell, from the Assassins".
    •  Done
  • In his first appearance in the AWA in 1974, - Should mention that Bobby moved to the AWA, after leaving WWA.
    •  Done
  • The AWA was the starting point for his first Heenan Family, which consisted of Bockwinkel, Stevens, Bobby Duncum Sr., and Blackjack Lanza.[2] - Mention what the Heenan family was (A stable of heels), readers shouldn't have to click the wikilink.
    •  Done
  • "On January 25, 1975, an angry fan shot at Heenan in Chicago's International Amphitheatre after Heenan interfered in one of Bockwinkel's matches." - Because this is a pro wrestling article, the word "shot" should be explained to be from a gun, rather than a piece of wrestling jargon. I'd use "fired a gun".
    •  Done
  • "In early 1979, Heenan left the AWA (suspended one year, in storyline) to work in Georgia Championship Wrestling (GCW), a tenure he later said he did not enjoy due to his dislike of booker Ole Anderson" - Needs a citation.
    •  Done and expanded.
  • "and Heenan later recommended to Gagne that he hire him" - Wording "recommended to Gagne that Hogan was hired", or similar.
    • rephrased
  • "With Ventura unable to wrestle," - Should probably mention why. Even as a note.
    •  Done
  • Big John Studd in his feud against André the Giant about who was the true giant in professional wrestling - This should be phrased. I believe it was the official title for the fued.
    • I rephrased part of it but removed the part about the feuding giants. Not sure if it's needed.
  • "After being derided by announcers for his first five years in the WWF (mostly by Gorilla Monsoon) for never managing a champion, WrestleMania V was promoted (mostly by Jesse Ventura and later Gorilla Monsoon) as Heenan's quest, and best chance since WrestleMania III to manage a champion. Heenan finally managed his first champion in the WWF when "Ravishing" Rick Rude upset The Ultimate Warrior for the WWF Intercontinental Championship, a match Heenan insured Rude would win by holding Warrior's leg down so he could not break the pin.[2] Shortly thereafter, he led the Brain Busters to the WWF World Tag Team championship. A few months later after the Busters had lost the titles back to Demolition, he led the Colossal Connection (André and Haku) to the Tag Team Championship when they defeated Demolition. Demolition would win the titles back in WrestleMania VI. Immediately after the loss, Heenan began blaming the loss to Andre the Giant going as far as slapping him.[13] A few months after that, he led Mr Perfect to Intercontinental Championship success.[14]" - With these having title changes, they should be cited.
    •  Done
  • Heenan also had a feud with The Ultimate Warrior, who reintroduced Heenan to Weasel Suit matches, - Explination of what these are, as it's not mentioned earlier.
    •  Done
  • Another classic moment between the pair often occurred when Heenan would go on a long rant supporting the villainous wrestlers, - POV.
    •  Done
  • Heenan said he was uninspired in WCW due to the negative work environment, which he later described as night and day compared to the WWF, and due to conflicts with Schiavone. WCW went out of business less than a year after his release. - If "night and day" is a quote, it needs to be quoted. If not, remove.
    •  Done
  • "In 2004, he feuded with fellow managerial legend Jim Cornette in Ring of Honor." - You can't use the word legend, unless quoted
    •  Done
  • Heenan made appearances on various television shows, including: Family Feud, Live with Regis and Kathie Lee, The Jerry Lewis MDA Labor Day Telethon, Nickelodeon Kids' Choice Awards, The Arsenio Hall Show, and The Dennis Miller Show. - Should mention if this was as himself, or as an actor, and cited.
    •  Done
  • His first memoir, Bobby The Brain: Wrestling's Bad Boy Tells All, was released on September 1, 2002 with a foreword from Hulk Hogan.[34] A second memoir, Chair Shots and Other Obstacles: Winning Life's Wrestling Matches, was released on March 1, 2004 and has an introduction by Ric Flair. Both books were co-written by Steve Anderson.[2] - No publishing information?
    •  Done
  • After his Hall of Fame induction, Heenan provided comments for use in WWE documentary releases. In December 2010, WWE released a retrospective two-disc DVD on Heenan's career.[10] - Should probably name the DVD.
    •  Done

General info[edit]

  • Pictures could do with alt text.
    •  Done
  • The final photo should be moved to the final section, as it's a picture of the pair at a WOW show.
    •  Done

GA Review[edit]

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:
As above, this is a pass - Thank you for being so responsive for the page. There are obviously still a couple issues floating, but nothing that would stop this article being classed as GA. Congratulations. I'll update Legobot. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 08:25, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 26 September 2018[edit]

115.132.123.188 (talk) 05:34, 26 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

birth date

 Not done: Your request is not specific enough. The birth date has already been discussed above. In addition, please do not edit others' comments. Gulumeemee (talk) 10:07, 26 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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