Talk:Brécourt Manor Assault

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Who defended the guns?[edit]

This article mentions that "The position was not (as is often reported) defended by German paratroopers of the elite 6th Fallschirmjäger Regiment commanded by Colonel von der Heydte, which were mainly located further to the south in the Carentan area. In total, the Americans were opposed by approximately sixty German soldiers.". The article about Richard Winters ([[1]]) on the other hand states that "The guns were defended by at least one platoon of the 6th Fallschirmjager Regiment while Winters had only thirteen men. The attack took place south of the village of Le Grand-Chemin, and is often referred to as the Brécourt Manor Assault." So which one is correct?

Know what I'll give someone 1 week before I change that because in the book Biggest Brother the CO of the 6th blahblahblah regiment said that he had his troops there while he and winters discussed the battle. So where is this quote coming from?--LtWinters 19:38, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Asmirnov (talk • contribs) 17:04, 21 April 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Here is the problem with the 6th Parachute Rgt, the Corps reserve of the German 84th Corps. Von der Heydt was at his HQ at La Hotellerie near La Haye-du-Puits (about 10 miles to the west) when the attack began. His phone lines to both the 91st Division and 84 Corps had been cut. At 0600 he finally got a call through to Gen. Marcks at 84 Corps HQ in St. Lo and was ordered to move his Rgt to Carentan and attack north to clean out the area between Carentan and St Mère Église of American paratroopers. He went to Carentan and found little going on--no paratroopers and few Germans. Von de Heydt ordered his rgt to move to Carentan while he went up the road three miles to St Côme-du-Mont to recon. He arrived at noon and climbed the church steeple, and could see the landing taking place at Utah Beach. He said he got no impression of a battle taking place because he heard very little shooting. He ordered the 1st and 2nd Battalions to move up to St Côme-du-Mont but they did not arrive at St Côme-du-Mont until almost 1900. He sent the 2nd battalion toward St Mère Église to mop up the paratroopers--his mission--and the 1st Bn to St Marie du Mont to guard St Côme-du-Mont from the troops landing at Utah. He sent his 3rd Bn back to Carentan to dig in. The battalions moved out at 1900--note: 6-7 hours AFTER Brecourt Manor took place--and the 1st Bn did not reach St Marie until midnight. This contradicts the timing at Brecourt by half a day. During the evening Von der Heydt, who was at St Côme-du-Mont with the attached 3rd Battalion 1058th Grenadiers, saw the glider landings come in, thought a second large attack was taking place, and ordered his battalions to withdraw. 2nd battalion, near St Mère Église, got the word and came back safely. 1st Battalion at St Marie-du-Mont app did not get the word (but if Von der Heydt had been there with them how could they not?) and were cut off. They attempted to come back during the afternon of June 7 and were bagged almost to the man by the 501st PIR. The other part of the problem is that the guns were part of the 191st Artillery Regt, a unit of the static 709th Division. 1st Company, 1st Battalion, 919th Grenadier Rgt, also part of the 709th ID, was posted at St Marie-du-Mont about 500 yds to the south of Brécourt. The static troops tended to defend by fire and not attack, but they were 3rd and 4th class troops (by German definition) and could have bugged out. The 1058th Gren-Rgt was also in the area--one company had defended Exit 1 about a mile from St Marie-du-Mont to the east until defeated at noon on DDay--and had pressured the 101st Abn CPs at Hiesville and Culoville all day (they were about a mile from St Marie-du-Mont to the west). The 1058th was not a static unit and acquitted itself well at St Côme-du-Mont . The 795th Georgian Bn was also in the vicinity at Turqueville (2 miles to the NW) but had flooded low ground between it and Brécourt Manor. The 6th Parachute Rgt may have been the unit at Brécourt Manor--but the matter is highly doubtful.--Buckboard 01:30, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

textbook tactics?[edit]

"... often cited as a classic example of small unit tactics "

Would be nice to have some documented proof of this. If know BofB mentions it, but is there an online source or citation that refers to this attack in current Army training? Beanbatch 21:16, 10 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Band of Brothers does what wiki guidelines discourage: it states things as fact with no documentation. That was Ambrose's style, which burned him late in life when he was caught and exposed. That in turn led to hard looks at his "popular history" and was found to be riddled with errors, inaccuracies and in some cases outright fabrications. BoB is not a reliable source for any statement such as this.--Buckboard 05:21, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Just nit picking a little, but this quote really frizzles me: "In total, they were up against about 50 Germans." Fifty German what? Weed pullers? Besides not spelling out the numeric fifty like you're suppose to on a number that small, it's correct grammer to indicate exactly what the amount refers to. Edited to reflect this. Just a little nitpick. Gibson Cowboy 11:31, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Normal practice is to spell out numbers below ten, and use the numerals for any number higher than that.

DMorpheus 17:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]



"Fifty German what? Weed pullers?"
According to Stephen E. Ambrose's book, 'Band of Brothers', the German troops at Brecourt Manor and the 105mm battery were from the 1st Battallion, 6th Parachute Regiment. They were sent there by their CO, Colonel Frederick van der Heyde on the morning of D-Day after he had inspected Brecourt Manor to find the post abandoned (the artillerymen had apparently fled in the night, spooked by the airborne landings). He sent his 1st Battallion troops with orders to find some artillerymen and to get the guns working.

Ambrose was wrong, whether intentionally or not is subject to speculation. Von der Heydte went to St Come du Mont, not St Marie du Mont. The church steeple was in St. Come. The information comes from von der Heydte's own after-action report, referenced in the US Army history on the action published after WWII. He sent his 1st bn to St Marie, but he never saw it, much less Brecourt Manor. "Find some artillerymen"? Give me a break--a fallschirmjager lieutenant with no previous familiarity with the territory or dispositions is going to be able to "find some artillerymen" (at his local artilleryman store) but not a lieutenant colonel? Upon such illogical foibles is fallacious history built. --Buckboard 02:10, 17 July 2007 (UTC)


In Richard Winters' book, Beyond Band of Brothers: The War Memoirs of Major Ricard Winters, he gives the names of some of the dead and wounded, although this is not an exhaustive list:


Dead:
PFC 'Rusty' Houch, F Company, 506 PIR, 101st Airborne Division
Warrant Officer J.G. Andrew Hill, 506 PIR, 101st Airborne Division
PFC John D. Hall, A Company, 506 PIR, 101st Airborne Division


Wounded:
PFC Robert 'Popeye' Wynn, E Company, 506 PIR, 101st Airborne Division
PFC Leonard G. Hicks, D Company, 506 PIR, 101st Airborne Division


A little aside, in the Band of Brothers miniseries, during the attack on the first gun when the Germans are running across the field, Gerrald Lorraine misses his target several times until Bill Guarnere hits the man and chastises Lorraine for being a "f***in jeep jockey" (Lorraine was Colonel Sink's driver at Regimental HQ).


However, according to Winters' memoirs, it was the other way around. Lorraine hit his man (with a Thompson sub-machine gun not, as shown in BoB, an M-1 Garand rifle) while Guarnere missed. Winters put this down to 'Wild Bill' being too pumped up on adrenaline during the inital rush to the 1st gun but says that 'he soon calmed down'.

--Andyj18 17:49, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Band of Brothers is rife with inaccuracies and not reliable as a source for contentious points without corroboration. The miniseries is even worse. The guns were part of III/191 Artillerie Regiment, part of the 91st Luftland Division, not the 6th Parachute Rgt. The histories all indicate that the 6th was still on the road to Carentan from near La Haye-du-Puits when Brecourt Manor took place.--Buckboard 01:57, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


There are many problems with this article 1) Weasel words (eg: "often" cited as a "classic" example of tactics. By who? What is the source for this?) 2) Unreferenced facts/figures (eg: the numbers of Germans defending and the numbers of Germans killed. What is the source for this? American military sources must be treated with caution, as they have a history of exaggeration). 3) The fact that this article exists at all. Why is this small, relatively unimportant engagement involving only small numbers of local units the subject of a wikipedia article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.82.87.41 (talk) 15:43, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Couple of Contradictions[edit]

There are a couple of inconsistencies between the box on the rhs and the main text:

  • text says 50 germans, box says 60+
  • text says 1 dead, box says 4

Ollie 04:41, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think that the other dead may have been from Dog Company. I know that it's not the best source, but watching that episode of BoB, it looks like several of Spears' men get hit when they go for the last gun. Either way, this should be explained. --UNHchabo 05:12, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A book I'm reading called "Utah Beach" by Joseph Balkoski says that Winters later recalled that there were ten casualities, four of which died. (If the book is handy to someone, page 252 is where I got that info from). Just thought that might clear it up

Box says strength of US forces was 13 paratroopers. In the medals awarded it lists 14 recipients. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.6.247.204 (talk) 17:51, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Factuality[edit]

How much of this can actually be substantiated - and how much is lifted straight from Band of Brothers? This reads like the plot of a TV show.--Cancun771 (talk) 16:11, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not that much I'll posit

The history referred to in the text has this to say on the matter.

That part of Company D, 506th Regiment, which had bypassed the German battery at ST GERMAIN DE VARREVILLE some time around noon and made a dash for Exit No 2, arrived at its objective at 1330. The causeway leading through HOUDIENVILLE was brought under control practically without fighting. STRAYER'S main body caught up with the advance party about 1500 hours. The column had kept the German battery entertained until CAPT R. D. WINTERS of Company E made a trip to the Beach and returned with a group of tanks from the seaborne force. The tanks brought the battery under fire and destroyed it.

Historical Manuscripts Collection file number 8-3.1 BB 3

REGIMENTAL UNIT STUDY
NUMBER 3
506 PARACHUTE INFANTRY REGIMENT IN NORMANDY DROP

Andrei nzv8 (talk) 02:27, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

BoB[edit]

In the miniseries Band of Brothers they say that:

Bronze Stars:

  • Walter Hendrix
  • Donald Malarkey
  • John Plesha
  • Joe Toye
  • Carwood Lipton
  • Cleveland Petty
  • Myron Ranney
  • Robert "Popeye" Wynn

Joseph Liebgott is not mentioned at all.

Silver Stars:

  • "Buck" Compton
  • Bill Guarnere
  • Gerald Lorraine

Distinguished Service Cross:

  • Richard Winters

Movie does not mention Purple Hearts at all (but that's not the point of my post). I would like to know what's with the Liebgott ?! Was he there? Movie's mistake or Wiki article's fault?

PFC John D. Halls & PFC John D. Hall BoB Mistake[edit]

T-5 John D. Hall, whom the series depicts as having been KIA in the Brecourt action, may have been a member of the basketball team, but he was not a member of Company 'A', as the dialogue indicates. He actually belonged to Service Company, as did Gerald Loraine. Loraine was not Sink's only jeep driver, and Fred Roe, from Michigan, also performed that function at various times in WW2. John D. Halls, same middle initial as John D. Hall, but note the 's' on his last name, was a member of the 81mm mortar platoon, of Headquarters Co., 2nd battalion, 506th PIR, and according to John Barickman of the same platoon, it was HALLS who was killed in the Brecourt fight, not HALL. This is likely to be correct, because John D. Hall died in the plane crash of Stick #32 near Picauville, France, and all aboard were killed in that crash. Lt. Kenneth Beatty, the XO of C/506th was jumpmaster and most of the troopers aboard were Charlie Co. men. In 2004, as some Brits were preparing to put-up a marker in memory pof those victims at the Uppottery airfield site in the U.K., the name T-5 John D. HALL, of Service Co., appeared on the loading manifest. Since HALL could not have made the jump at all, and since he could only be KIA once, he was certainly NOT the trooper KIA at the Brecourt fight. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Virgo664 (talk • contribs) 22:18, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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Identity of the battery[edit]

Winters appears to be mistaken in naming the "90th Artillery Regiment" as parent of the battery his force destroyed (Beyond Band Of Brothers, p. 90). Heer Artillerie-Regiment 90 was subordinated to 10. Panzer Division, which surrendered to the Allies in Tunisia in 1943 [2]. If this were a transcription error, Winters could be referring to (Gebirgs-) Artillerie-Regiment 191 (oddly designated a 'mountain' unit in April 1944, perhaps due to its armament), which was the established artillery regiment of 91. Luftlande-Infanterie-Division (see also this unit's Lexikon page), the parent unit of Grenadier-Regiment 1058. If this could be confirmed it would make it much more likely that the other German infantry defending the battery belonged to Grenadier-Regiment 1058. 118.87.41.238 (talk) 05:51, 24 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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