Talk:Bristol Cars

Untitled

"The vast majority of parts are in stock, and they will remanufacture or hand-make any other required parts." This is not true. There are many parts even for the V8 car which are no longer available, and Bristol do not offer to "hand make or remanufacture" such parts.

Unavailable parts include such fundamental items such as bumper bars for the 411 and anything earlier.

Dick Turpin.

If you know for certain that this claim isn't true, you should delete it from the article. Actually, the entire 'Image and company philosophy' section is a bit gushing and fanboyish ("The Bristol values are those of tradition, understated quality, and practicality, rather than ostentation or excitement" etc). Maybe I'll do a rewrite some time. James von Mann 22:51, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

• Maybe telling someone who came once - 1) one year ago - 2) to just do one edit - to do something will not prove very fruitful. Hektor 19:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 17:07, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Spare Parts

The note stating that there are parts for old Bristols that are not available seems to have been written by someone who knows what he is talking about, so I won't directly contradict him. However, about 3 or four years ago, I went to the Kensington showroom in London and happened to meet Tony Crook. We had a very pleasant, long conversation about automobiles in general and the Bristol in particular, and he informed me that they had ALL the parts for EVERY Bristol model ever built. He may have been exaggerating, of course, but I did hear that from the head man himself.98.170.196.210 (talk) 04:47, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

2011 administration

I think it's slightly premature to start referring to the company in the past tense - the company is now in administration, so it still exists as a legal entity and will remain so until and unless it is finally wound up. Letdorf (talk) 22:40, 4 March 2011 (UTC).

• And why have the geographical coordinates of the showroom been removed ?

I wont revert again but it does look rather bizarre to me to have the coordinates of the showroom in the article lead. I'm not against having the co-ordinates somewhere but this doesn't strike me as the most elegant or suitable place. Ditto the full show room address.

NPOV

I'm not sure saying a car company that took BMW plans in post-war Germany has "BMW origins" is NPOV. Did they remunerate BMW? It sounds to me like they stole technology and then made BMWs and sold them as Bristols.

I would like to change the section "BMW origins" to something else, but not necessarily "Stolen BMW technology". Any suggestions? Fleetham (talk) 14:37, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

IMHO, "stolen" is too emotive a word for this context. You seem to be ignoring the fact that Bristol acquired the BMW intellectual property following the defeat of Nazi Germany. IMHO, this could be considered as part of the legitimate war reparations after the end of the war. Lots of technology developed by Nazi Germany found its way to the USA, Britain, USSR etc. from 1945 onwards. Bristol Cars was only a tiny part of this. Regards, Letdorf (talk) 18:29, 9 April 2011 (UTC).

I don't want to weigh in on the legitimacy of war reparations. But "BMW origins" doesn't reflect the way in which Bristol Cars obtained its technology. Would you agree to naming the section the anodyne "Postwar BMW technology"? Fleetham (talk) 20:45, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

That's certainly less emotive than "stolen", but it was actually pre-war BMW models that Bristol based the 400 on. How about "Pre-war BMW designs"? "Technology" seems a bit anachronistic for the period. Regards, Letdorf (talk) 21:12, 9 April 2011 (UTC).

You're right; that was my mistake. Although I'd prefer something that makes more mention of the manner in which the plans were acquired, I'd agree to "Pre-war BMW designs". If I don't hear anything from you, I'll change the sections names. Fleetham (talk) 21:34, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Removal of content

The history section used to look like this:

History

The history of Bristol Cars began in 1945. Forecasting an excess labour capacity postwar, the Bristol Aeroplane Company (BAC) began working with AFN Ltd, makers of Frazer Nash cars, on plans for a joint venture in automotive manufacture. By July 1945 BAC had created a Car Division and bought a controlling stake in AFN. HJ and DA Aldington remained Directors of AFN and were joined on the Board by Reginald Verdon-Smith and George Middleton White, both sons of BAC Directors. Reginald Verdon-Smith was elected Chairman and HJ Aldington Managing Director.
HJ Aldington, who was still in the British Army, used his military connections to visit the bombed BMW factory in Munich several times in 1945, culminating in a 'duty' trip in October 1945, along with his brother and two Bristol representatives, to take detailed plans of BMW cars and several development engines which they flew back to Bristol. This was quite a tricky manoeuvre as Munich had been declared part of the American Zone and the American Military had just issued orders for the BMW plant to be dismantled and crated up for shipment to the USA. These plans and engines were subsequently declared to be war reparations. BMW chief engineer Fritz Fiedler was also given employment at AFN where he continued development of the BMW 328 engine.
By mid-1947, the different intentions of the Aldingtons and Bristol were becoming clear and Bristol severed its ties with AFN, returning control of AFN to the Aldington family. Earlier in 1947 BAC had registered the company Bristol Cars Ltd although it continued for several years to market its cars as made by the Bristol Aeroplane Company.
The first car, the 1947 Bristol 400, was heavily based on pre-WW2 BMWs. The body looked very like the BMW 327, while its engine and suspension were clones of BMW designs (engine and front suspension based on those of the BMW 328, rear suspension from the BMW 326). Even the famous double-kidney BMW grille was carried over intact.
Until 1961 all Bristol cars used evolutions of the 6-cylinder BMW-derived engine. This well-regarded engine also powered a number of sports and racing cars, including all post-war Frazer Nash cars (apart from a few prototypes), some ACs, some Lotus and Cooper racing cars, and several others. In 1961, with the launch of the Bristol 407, the company switched to larger Chrysler V8 engines, which were more suitable for the increasingly heavy cars. All post-1961 Bristols including the current Blenheim and Fighter models use Chrysler engines.

From 1960 to 1973, former racing driver T.A.D. Tony Crook and Sir George White owned Bristol Cars; In 1973, Sir George sold his stake to Tony Crook. In 1997, Toby Silverton came on board and there followed the greater level of development of cars seen in recent years (particularly, the new Bristol Fighter). Crook eventually sold the company to Silverton in 2001.

This has now been cut down to the following, in my eyes unacceptable version:

The history of Bristol Cars began in 1946 when an excess postwar labour capacity caused the Bristol Aeroplane Company to start building luxury cars.[6] Originally a division of this airplane maker Bristol Cars was sold after its parent joined with other British airplane companies in 1960 to create the British Aircraft Corporation, now British Aerospace.[6]

Pre-war BMW designs
HJ Aldington, a director of the Bristol Aeroplane Company affiliated AFN, used his British Army connections to visit the bombed BMW factory in Munich several times post-war. In 1945 he took plans for BMW cars back to Britain.[7] A BMW chief engineer, Fritz Fiedler, was also given employment. Its first car was the 1947 Bristol 400.[6] Based on pre-WW2 BMW technology, the engine and suspension were BMW designs,[7] and even the famous double-kidney BMW grille was retained.
Engines
Until 1961 all Bristol cars used derivations of a 6-cylinder BMW engine. This well-regarded engine also powered a number of sports and racing cars, including all post-war Frazer Nash cars (apart from a few prototypes), some ACs, some Lotus and Cooper racing cars, and several others.

In 1961, with the launch of the Bristol 407, the company switched to larger Chrysler V8 engines, which were more suitable for the increasingly heavy cars. All post-1961 Bristols including the current Blenheim and Fighter models use Chrysler engines.

I vote for an immediate reversal to the original version.  ⊂| Mr.choppers |⊃  (talk) 17:17, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

it looks like its been cut too much, the original version looks much better and more detailed encyclopedic one -->Typ932 ^T·C 18:04, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

could someone explain why so much information has been eliminated ? Hektor (talk) 18:07, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Because of User:Fleetham. See Share taxi and Lanix for more examples of this user's style. He appears, cuts away nearly all content and replaces it with very little text broken up into very small sections. He then places references for every single sentence, littering the text with superscripts. We are left with a serious of uninformative bullet points and tons of useful info is lost. When the article in question is of interest to others, an edit war usually breaks out. Lanix (with which I am not involved) is currently edit protected due to Fleetham's depradations.  ⊂| Mr.choppers |⊃  (talk) 18:19, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Although the original section wasn't perfect, quite a lot of content has been removed which in my view should be put back. Rangoon11 (talk) 18:22, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

I should add that the additions of citations, the insertion of additional information and the correction of factual inaccuracies, is of course a very good thing. However long-standing content should not be bulk deleted just because it is uncited, but citation needed tags can be added where appropriate and content is disputed. Rangoon11 (talk) 18:38, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

This degree of deletion is unwarranted. Tho there seems to be some debate on it, as I understand it, removal is only for "things likely to be challenged". AFAIK, none of this is. I'd blanket rv to the first version & try to find cites. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 00:38, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Revert it. The original version is much better. Malcolma (talk) 07:59, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Can some one write a middle ground? Original was overly long and detailed, but new version is now too short, though I think it does read better. ARDawson (talk) 09:44, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

User:Fleetham is also working on Chery Automobile, Brilliance Auto, FAW Group and Guangzhou Automobile Group. Everything is gone and replaced by stuff that's barely more than a dictionary definition. He's also been at FAW Hongqi, BYD Company, BYD Electronic and Beijing Automotive Industry Holding Co Ltd, although the articles were short before he worked on them, but it's also just small descriptive sentences. He created Hawtai Automobile, another collection of short topics. His additions to other articles on Chinese auto companies don't look too bad, it seems his style for short topics instead of long prose has been intensifying in the last few weeks. Quite frankly, I feel those look like short magazine articles instead of encyclopedic. There's no juice, no detail. --Pc13 (talk) 10:10, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly and have been trying for many months to slow him down and undo some of the deleting. He seems to think that I am alone in disapproving of his style, though, which leads to a lot of stress. See my talkpage for ongoing but unproductive discussion. In any case, I would welcome a reversal and future (actual) improvements.  ⊂| Mr.choppers |⊃  (talk) 16:06, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

How's this? I trimmed out what seemed non-essential but tried to keep the rest. In particular, IMO, the names of the directors is important. (I also see the original explains what AFN is, & that got deleted along the way.) TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 17:12, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, of course, unreferenced content on WP is liable to be deleted, but as Rangoon11 says, it would be less antagonistic to to tag uncited claims (that aren't obvious nonsense) as a first step. And I don't understand the splitting up of perfectly reasonable paragraphs into different sections either, which doesn't enhance the clarity or readability of the article IMHO. Trekphiler's draft looks reasonable, but does need more citations. Regards, Letdorf (talk) 19:20, 11 April 2011 (UTC).

To be clear, I didn't integrate the existing page with my (1st) proposed draft, just took out what was (perhaps) a bit needless. This page as it now is has added some info with cites. (I've also now integrated the new material here.) TBH, I don't think there's anything sufficiently conentious to need removal, even if it's ignorantly fact-tagged (which I wouldn't exclude...) And judging by this... 8o 8o TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 20:47, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

AFN

Since the tag didn't help... What I'm wondering is, what does AFN mean? Is it just the name of the sales agency, or what? TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 16:51, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Oh, sorry, I thought that mentioning them in the previous section took care of the tag, but I guess that the acronym remains unclear. According to A-Z of Sports Cars, the company was founded by Archie Frazer Nash in 1924. It was then "taken over by H.J. Aldington in 1926 when the parent firm became AFN Ltd." According to Standard Catalog of Imported Cars the name was changed in 1927 and Aldington was not involved until later, which is also what appears on Frazer Nash. I suppose that the "A" stands for Archibald?  ⊂| Mr.choppers |⊃  (talk) 19:07, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Ah, yes, it's Archibald: towards the bottom of the page. The new version looks good, btw.  ⊂| Mr.choppers |⊃  (talk) 19:09, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I presumed as much. What happened was, our deletionist friend took it out & didn't notice the (now unexplained) AFN ref below it... TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 20:29, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

History copyright

There now are some more paragraphs about Bristol's history in the article, stating that that "has been taken from the Bristol Cars Ltd website, with their kind permission." I'd like to see that permission. I would guess that without this permission, these paragraphs contitute a copyright violation and should not be here. Mark in wiki (talk) 15:38, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

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External links modified (January 2018)

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Jason Wharton

The recently added information about the resurrected marque feels like it was written by a PR consultant rather than a Wikipedian, especially the mentions of its proprietor. 80.7.168.14 (talk) 20:36, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

Archiving

I propose to set up archiving for this Talk page. Any objections? Thanks DBaK (talk) 16:28, 2 September 2021 (UTC)