Talk:Buffalo crime family/Archives/2019

Lead appears to be wrong

The November 2017 charges in Canada and in New York City had nothing to the with the mob in Buffalo.

Those arrested in the US are all in New York City. See https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/members-and-associates-gambino-and-bonanno-organized-crime-families-arrested AND https://www.newsday.com/news/new-york/mob-indictment-induction-ceremony-1.14873268

I have added the updates to the Bonnano crime family and the Gambino crime family articles today. You will find more info there. No Buffalo connection.

The relevant article re: the charges in Canada is Paolo Violi; I updated that article too with the November charges in Canada. No Buffalo connection.

 Others were also arrested and charged, including Masimigliano Carfagna of Burlington, Ontario and warrants were out for additional suspects. https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2017/11/15/2002-halton-police-report-had-intelligence-on-accused-mobster.html   https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2017/11/10/accused-brothers-in-trafficking-bust-come-from-colourful-family.html  During the multi-city bust, police seized large quantities of fentanyl and carfentanil, heroin, cocaine and over 250,000 tablets of controlled substances, some three million cigarettes and several gaming machines. The RCMP advised the news media that those charged had ties with crime families in New York. That week, the FBI arrested several people in the U.S. on related offences; the charges included narcotics trafficking, loansharking and firearms.http://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-pmn/rcmp-announces-major-bust-with-links-to-organized-crime-in-canada-and-u-s They were said to be affiliated with the Gambino crime family or the Bonanno crime family.http://aboutthemafia.com/tag/new-york-mafia

Peter K Burian (talk) 20:31, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I tried cleaning some of it up, but I'm not quite sure if the sources being sourced infact say what is being written. I'll leave it for now in good faith as there is likely a possibility of connection to Buffalo, but it needs to be written without POV. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 21:15, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Well, the mentions of the Buffalo mob in Nov. 2017 articles are insignificant so they certainly did not belong in the lead. (OK, yes, some articles did vaguely mention Todaro; I had not noticed that before.) I read the sources and they are correctly quoted in the article. Extensive research did not reveal anything as to who those alleged "Todaro" members are. Peter K Burian (talk) 21:37, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Adrian Humphries the Canadian organized crime expert makes the connection between the arrests in Canada and the Buffalo Crime family in his article in the Canadian National Post... He clearly connects Buffalo, Maggadino, & Todaro.

Among those arrested in Canada are members of the Todaro organized crime family, based in Buffalo, according to U.S. authorities. The Todaro crime group was built by the now-deceased Joseph (Lead Pipe Joe) Todaro, Sr., who took over the Buffalo Mafia once led by the influential boss Stefano (The Undertaker) Magaddino.

BuffCity (talk) 18:43, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

References

Fino-Rizzo source

Is The Triangle Exit:The True Story of a Secret Undercover Operative for the FBI and CIA (Organized Crime) by Fino and Rizzo self-published or not? I am trying to work out what lies behind the Kindle edition that is cited. I do see that it is billed as a "thriller", which doesn't suggest 100% factual. - Sitush (talk) 21:47, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Hardcover: 494 pages Publisher: Contento De Semrik (June 30, 2013) Language: English ISBN-10: 9655502147 ISBN-13: 978-9655502145

BuffCity (talk) 18:52, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

I don't think it is self-published... but you can never be sure... Here is a link to the CEO of that :international publishing house:.... https://www.netanelsemrik.com https://www.contentonow.com BuffCity (talk) 18:58, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

I have asked for opinions at WP:RSN. - Sitush (talk) 19:51, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Here is a link to Ronald Fino’s Wiki Page. I believe he is a reliable source. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Fino BuffCity (talk) 21:54, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

That article is useless. - Sitush (talk) 21:59, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Boy you harsh in your responses... Just trying to gibe you more information on who Fino is since you question his credibility. It had links to his actual involvement to LIUNA national and Buffalo activity in trying to rid the unions of mob activity. Sorry for trying to be helpful. BuffCity (talk) 22:06, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

We have an article for David Irving but that doesn't mean he is a reliable source. Nor does appearing before a high-level government committee etc. I'm not saying that Fino is not a credible source, merely that the article doesn't speak for it. - Sitush (talk) 22:31, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Noting that Fino's bio article includes this (archived version). It seems very much to sit on the fence regarding credibility and ends with To many people in Buffalo, Fino is a mysterious figure. Even people who like him say they really don't know whether to believe all, part or any of the things he claims. His former attorney, Cambria, was asked if he will read Fino's book, should it someday be published. "I don't know if I'll read it or not," Cambria responded. "I can't vouch for his credibility." As far as I am concerned, that is the clincher and because Fino and Rizzo worked together on this book I think we can also rule out Rizzo's self-authored book which we also cite because the source will be Fino. - Sitush (talk) 23:11, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

I dont agree, but I don’t think that matters. Using your logic I know people who don’t believe Dab Herbeck of the Buffalo News is a credible source. He has a pony in this race about whether the Buffalo crime family is dead or not. He would like to think his journalistic coverage of Buffalo LCN is a least partially responsible for the supposed death of the family - see his March 2017 article. Adittionally it appears the FBI field office in NY, City is in a pissing match with the WNY field office. According to Herbeck the WNY office says the family is dead. However, the NYC field office definitly identified the Todaro Crime Family in Buffalo as active. BuffCity (talk) 03:10, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

I think an article must fairly represent both positions ...one is just as cedible as the other. BuffCity (talk) 03:13, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

Or the two are not the same thing. This is at the heart of what I and others have been banging on about regarding what we think may be original research. I see no evidence of a "pissing match" - do you actually have any sources that say the two groups are at loggerheads or are you just surmising that from your interpretation of the different stories? The latter is the very definition of original research. - Sitush (talk) 06:33, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

ORIGINAL RESEARCH... ...that is why id didn't put anything in the article about a "pissing match." The readers do need to know that the FBI field office in NYC states succinctly members of the Todaro Crime family were arrested in Canada. The Todaro's are from Buffalo. They led the LCN in that city. That is virtually undebatable. Buffalo crime family and Todaro crime family are synonymous to anybody with a half an understanding of LCN activity in the Buffalo area over the years. Humphries staters the Todaro Crime family is located in Buffalo in his quote that is listed in the article.

Among those arrested in Canada are members of the Todaro organized crime family, based in Buffalo, according to U.S. authorities. The Todaro crime group was built by the now-deceased Joseph (Lead Pipe Joe) Todaro, Sr., who took over the Buffalo Mafia once led by the influential boss Stefano (The Undertaker) Magaddino.

SO HERE IS MY QUESTION: Why does the article question the following statement in the article as original research?

In November 2017 the US Justice Department and Canadian newspapers indicate the family is still active. These publications state members of the Buffalo crime family or what the Toronto Star, the US Justice Department, and FBI in Eastern New York have recently called "The Todaro Crime Family")[original research?] were arrested on narcotics trafficking charges.

Really, I am just trying to understand. Thanks for you helpBuffCity (talk) 21:07, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

I think you are synthesising sources, ie: taking what various sources say and merging them to produce a conclusion that none of them say. That is a form of original research - see WP:SYNTHESIS. - Sitush (talk) 20:47, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

The Fino-Rizzo book was deemed unreliable in the discussion at WP:RSN. - Sitush (talk) 20:48, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

@Sitush: I don't even think Ronald Fino is notable enough to merit a Wikipedia article per WP:GNG. The info in his article right now is made up of nonsense. I'm thinking of nominating it for deletion. What do you think? Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 20:55, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

I trimmed that article a few days ago but I cannot see all of the external links which are listed, nor can I see many US news sources that might mention him in some detail. I'm probably not best placed to comment. I certainly wouldn't place much faith in him as a source for anything, whether in his book or elsewhere, but that isn't a WP:GNG criteria. - Sitush (talk) 21:07, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ronald Fino‎ Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 20:10, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

I noticed that. Not much I can say at the AfD because I don't have sufficient access to US news sources etc. - Sitush (talk) 20:38, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

From what I can see there's nothing, and the links given at the AfD don't turn up anything either. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 20:43, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

References

Academic Source About the Todaro Crime Family Syndicate

@Sitush...I've come across another article that calls the Buffalo/Todaro Crime family the Todaro Family Crime Syndicate.

The point is much is happening in Buffalo related to the old drug trafficking triangle set-up by Magaddino (Buffalo) and Bonanno Crime families and their Canadian Ndrine (Calabrian Mafia) counterparts.

There is lots of discussion about what this means. Does this mean the Family is active but morphed in structure like other families are doing -- for example the East Coast LCN Enterprise. This article talks about the chameleon like morphing these families are undergoing and how they are loosing their structures to work across different mafia lines (i.e. LCN; Calibrian, Ndrine, Sicilian, ...etc.)

I am processing the article to see how it may change what I just wrote to get your feedback above. I feel it important that this page reflect everything that has been said by legitimate sources about this Crime family and/or the criminal syndicate it as morphed into. This article I will link below suggests the Todaro Crime Family or the Todaro Crime Family Syndicate it has morphed into is very much alive contrary to Dan Herbeck's piece in the Buffalo News.

This article raises questions about the American LCN and the way they are reshaping their organizational structure and working across mafia lines. It raises many questions about the Buffalo crime family. Is it a syndicate? Is it a crime family? What is the difference? Is it part now Part of the Ndrine instead of LCN because its Ndrine crews have grown in power making the Buffalo mostly Sicilian LCN crews subservient. Is this why it has been off the Fed's radar, because Canada has been running the family for years. How has this "chameleon" like morphing" affected the Todaro family's organization? Is the family now "loosely" organized like its Ndrine's counterparts in Canada or a hybrid of both.

What is for sure... the "family" is alive but the organization may be different as it has morphed to stay alive and viable.

The article suggests that Todaro family was LCN Mafia, Works with LCN & Ndrine mafia, acts similar to the mafia. A crude illustration would be this: If it barks like a dog, hangs out with dogs, and was formerly a dog... why isn't it still a dog? ... Also, The Edwards piece needs to be added so people can follow the timeline. The Edwards piece shows the "family" or "syndicate" was reviving itself in 2013 when this OTremens operation was beginning.

Here is a link to the current article: Five Families; Todaro Crime Syndicate, & Ndrine...

I will work thru how to summarize without synthesizing, and post later.BuffCity (talk) 17:05, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Here is the hard part... According to this Academic article the Todaro Crime Syndicate was active during the OTremens Operation in Canada. She called it a former LCN family; yet, Peter Edwards, who lectures in Canadian colleges and universities, calls it a revived LCN family with looser organizational ties. Her article indicates all LCN Families are have changed organizations and are loosening their organizational ties as they are evolving to thrive in this new era. Are we getting into semantics? What is wrong with just calling it the Todaro or Buffalo Crime Family ... Any answers or suggestions?

Here is the Edwards quote again:

"At the time of the Platinum SB party, the Bonanno family’s credibility hung at a historic low, never having recovered from the defection of its former boss Joe Massino. The family’s failure to avenge the murder of Salvatore Montagna had called particular attention to their weakness. In Ontario, the New York City crime families with the most influence now were the Luccheses and Gambinos, and to a lesser extent the Genoveses. The old Magaddino family of Buffalo was attempting a revival through loansharking at Casino Niagara on the American border. This revived La Cosa Nostra was more loosely structured now, and more of a network than a tight organization. Contacts, expertise and experience were shared across organizational lines, for mutual benefit. These weren’t particularly friendly waters for Vito, but he had navigated far worse."BuffCity (talk) 17:26, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

And here is the most pertinent part of the academic document I linked above:

"Project OTremens had started in 2013 and resulted in raids across eastern Canada led by the RCMP and the Greater Toronto Area Combined Forces Special Enforcement Unit, with assistance from other Canadian police forces. Some of those arrested were connected to a Buffalo-based family, the Todaro syndicate, which had once belonged to La Cosa Nostra (LCN).

On the same day, in New York City, the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) conducted a parallel but separate operation against traditional organised crime in the city. The operation targeted historical families within LCN, arresting members and associates on charges of cocaine trafficking, extortion, loan sharking, and money laundering. The defendants – members and associates of the Bonanno and Gambino families – were arrested in New York City and appeared in the federal court in Brooklyn; the trials were ongoing at the time of publication.

The two operations confirmed that the traditional cross-border network of mafia organisations across the Buffalo-Montreal-New York triangle remained intact, despite organisational changes and law enforcement intervention. ...Mafia groups have a chameleonic ability to adapt. In an age of globalised communications and transport, traditional mafia groups – particularly in a central hub such as New York – can resurface and explore new pathways for expansion into criminal and legal markets, both in the United States and abroad."BuffCity (talk) 18:43, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

By the way here is the best definition I can find of a crime syndicate:

Noun:

a loose affiliation of gangsters in charge of organized criminal activities

Synonyms:

family, mob, syndicate

Types:

Cosa Nostra, Maffia, Mafia,

a crime syndicate in the United States; organized in families; believed to have important relations to the Sicilian Mafia

Type of:

gangdom, gangland, organized crime, underworld organizations

Any better definitions? How much should we strain at semantic definitions?BuffCity (talk) 17:50, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

I added the following:

"Dr. Anna Sergi (lecturer in criminology at the Department of Sociology, University of Essex, United Kingdom, and Deputy Director of the Centre for Criminology) confirms the Otremens operation, that resulted in the Violi brothers' arrests, indicates New York crime families are using drug trafficking routes they established long ago and are being "reinvigorated" by their long established working relationships with the Calabrian mafia in Canada. However, her article calls into question the current affiliation of the Todaro Crime Family in Buffalo indicating it is a "Crime Syndicate" formerly aligned with the LCN families of New York. (See her chart in the linked article: Anna Sergi on Todaro Crime Family, LCN & Calabrian Colaboration Given the divergence of professional opinion, more information is needed to determine if the Todaro Crime Family/Syndicate is indeed still its own LCN family, has become a separate crime entity, or has been absorbed by another New York LCN family like the Bonanno family or a Canadian Calabrian Family like the Violi Clan.[13]"

Wondering if the last sentence is a synthesis and should be removed? Thoughts? Sometimes, I know to much to know what is synthesis and what is not for the average reader.BuffCity (talk) 17:19, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

References

Peter Edward's article indicates Buffalo Mob is involved mob hits in Canada

Here is a link to the article: https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2018/09/17/buffalo-mob-playing-role-in-deadly-ontario-dispute-sources-say.html

Here are some quotes:

"New York State mob still has considerable influence in the southern Ontario underworld, sources say."

"Paul Manning, a former Hamilton undercover police officer who worked on organized crime investigations. “One thing’s for sure, Buffalo will always have a say north of the border.”"

"Buffalo would have to give approval for high-level killings, sources said, adding that mob leaders there are believed to have turned their backs on one side in the dispute and given tacit approval to the other. “They’re all supposed to be under Buffalo,” one source said of the two feuding Ontario crime factions."

"“The recently deceased had ties to New York,” a former police investigator said.“Buffalo factions of Traditional Organized Crime are not ‘in’ Canada per se, but historically have controlled aspects of Canadian ‘family business’ and do get kickbacks from profits from illicit activity,” Manning said."

The information in this article will need to be added to this wiki page.BuffCity (talk) 13:09, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

I saw that. Some parts were included at Musitano crime family. So it looks like the Buffalo family is also being called the New York State mob? The whole situation with Buffalo is a tad confusing. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 18:38, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

On his blog Edwards takes this a step further as he writes: The Buffalo mob isn’t dead, despite some media reports. And they’re playing a role in an ongoing dispute that includes the murder last week of a Hamilton real estate agent. Things will be worse before they get better, as murder of Angelo Musitano drives one side in dispute to clean house. Here is the link: https://peteredwardsauthor.com/2018/09/buffalo-mob-involved-in-deadly-niagara-region-dispute/ BuffCity (talk) 01:22, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

References

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