Talk:Carabinieri/Archive 1

Opening section

The first section seems very laudative. Does it really reflect the feelings of the Italian public? David.Monniaux 11:59, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It surely does reflect the feelings of the Carabinieri themselves.

Maybe the author is one of them ;-) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.30.21.78 (talk • contribs) .

It is largely true. They have a reputation of faithfulness to democracy and post-fascist Italy. --pippo2001 05:17, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

A proof of this is that when the Carabinieri were killed in a terrorist attack in Nassiriya a lot of people put flowers in front of the Carabinieri headquarters/stations as a sign of sympathy:

http://www.repubblica.it/2003/k/sezioni/esteri/iraq6/lagiornata/lagiornata.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.72.206.6 (talk) 08:49, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Carabina

How do you say carabina in English? --Error 01:25, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Carabina = Carbine —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.58.106.12 (talk • contribs) .

Italian public (Continued)

I'm sorry David, but it really reflects the fellings of the Italian public. Carabinieri are part of the italian culture. As my friend says, it's good that sometimes people think we are stupid, so we can do our job in silence...

If you go in every part of Italy, Carabinieri are everywhere. In the little town,in the largest,in the villages. The Polizia di Stato isn't so radicated in the italian society. People will surely say "Call the carabinieri" more than "call the Police"...

Carabinieri are like friends for many people, and sometimes they are friends. They have an innatural attitude to be "near the people". And this makes the people feel protect. William Geremia Sangiacomo (Italy)

• When I went to Rome a Gypsy picked my pocket and stole my passport and wallet. When I told the Rome police and the State Police. they just shrugged and told me I should have known better. A janitor at a bistro told me to tell a Carabinieri and when I did I had my wallet and passport back in a day.--Tomtom9041 16:35, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Shadows of the past

How come the article does not mention the following facts:

• 1. that the Carabinieri have been overwhelmingly faithful to Mussolini, some of them even after his fall (black shirts),
• 2.that they in fact have fought many times against the allied forces and killed many during WWII, *3. that they have taken part in the atrocities of the Italian forces in Ethiopia, where more than 600,000 people were killed during the Italian occupation (some of them in utterly horrible ways),
• 4. that they have been at the ideological forefront of fascism and have been cooperating with the Nazi SS for years. Thanks. -- bibiki, Bibiki 17:33, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

A few explanations:

• 1_Carabinieri have nothing to share with "Black Shirts". The Black Shirts were the elite units of MVSN (Milizia Volontaria Nazionale Fascista), a voluntary militia of the Fascist Party, very similar to the German SS.
• The Carabinieri, instead, were a part of the Royal Army, and they swore allegiance only to the King and not to Mussolini.

In fact, many of them, after the 8 of Sept. were involved in the Italian anti-fascist guerrilla,the Resistenza.

• This obviously does not affect the fact that some Carabinieri enrolled in the RSI troops and were involved in Nazi actions.
• The Carabinieri were involved in fighting against Allied troops, as well as every other Italian Soldier, Sailor or Airman, because that was their duty and, before 8 of sept. of 1943, the Allied forces were enemies to the Kingdom of Italy.

I don't see how this could be a criticism or a shadow in their history. I remember that wikipedia is a universal thing, and does not reflect not an American or allied point of view. 2_Carabinieri Uniforms and Insignia track back many years before the Fascist rule of italy (in particular, to 1895). Thanks, GVG Gvgallo 18:13, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

A few answers:

• 1. I meant to write (and in fact did write in my editing of the main artcle) "Black Brigades", instead of "Black Shirts".
• 2. About the Resistance: one naturally wonders; if they indeed did not like the fascist regime why did they wait until the end of 1943 (when Italy was decisively defeated and the allies were marching on Italian ground) to show it?
• 3. Not only some Carabinieri, but the whole of Italy's armed forces were involved in Nazi actions. Italy after all was part of the axis and German Nazism was inspired and supported by Italian Fascism (and not the opposite).
• 4. The above fact is a shadow in their history simply because the Italian forces (just like the German ones) fought in support of an evil ideology that advocated the right of some to kill and enslave others based on some assumed racial or cultural superiority and the preservation of it. Both the other two nations in the axis (Germany and Japan) have admitted their grave moral slip-ups and have brought to justice their war criminals. They have also embarked in a path of transparency and cultural change. Italy, to its great shame, has never fulfilled its promise to bring to justice even one of the more than 1000 Italian war criminals that are wanted for hideous deeds like pouring boiling oil on prisoners, pulling teeth out using pliers and gassing thousands like cockroaches. Some of those monsters are still around, free and rich, even enjoying respect and high regard in the contemporary Italian society.
• 5. If the Carabinieri had just a bit of historical, social and cultural sensitivity they would have changed the isignia that they wore while serving under the evil dictator. This has happened in every other country after dictatorships, but not in Italy that had one of the worst (if the not the worst).

Bibiki 10:10, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

So what's your proposal? To delete the Carabinieri, the Italian army, or perhaps Italy as itself? I see hatred and debatable opinions in your second answers, My dear Bibiki: you appear to be unable to reply to Gvgallo's explanations by means of new arguments, so you just repeat your string. But last word doesn't mean best argument. As about Italian war criminals, you are perfectly right: none of them was prosecuted. It's a shame. Nonetheless Italian society undertook its path of transparency and cultural change. Unless what happened in Japan and Germany, Italian partisans and the Italian army were a minor but seizable cobelligerant of the allies against Germans and die-hard fascists after sept. 8th 1943. That's why at the end of the war Italy as a whole mourned itself as a martyr of dictatorship and celebrated itself as a winner of fascism. USA and (notably) UK fostered such an internal lie, in order to underpin newborn political class come out from the Resistenza. And, you know, winner don't have to sue their own war criminals. What about Katyn massacre, soviet mass deportations, the bombing of Dresden, Hiroshima and so on? They were war crimes too - some were crimes against humanity. (Of course this is so much far from implying that the allies were morally equivalent to axis: we're all adult and educated enough, therefore I do not even need to make it clear). Last, are you sure that changing insignia is necessary not to mess with a passed away dictatorship? If so, then advise the German army to wipe out the Kreuz (cross) from uniforms. Klaus

mmmmm, my dear Klaus (btw, your signature points to somebody's profile who obviously could not be you - in my humble opinion of course), can you please explain to me why exactly I need to have a proposal on this? I am not even Italian. I just mentioned some simple historical facts about the Carabinieri and in extension Italy. Nothing more, nothing less. You write in a somewhat awkward way but from what I can gather you mean to say that Italy was among the winners of the war. If this is the case can you please explain to us when exactly it was that the USA lost the war to Italy? In my version of history Italy declared war on the USA and lost. Just like it lost to all the allies it came in direct conflict with and that includes even Greece. I will not (of course) ever raise the issue of wiping out the Kreuz from German uniforms, vehicles or anywhere else simply because the Germans have changed everything else not to mention the fact that they have legislation in place that prohibits even the trading of old army officer insignia. The Carabinieri have changed virtually nothing and in Italy there is a hot market for fascist and nazi insignia, flags and memorabilia. Bibiki 22:20, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Bibiki, if you weren't so busy trying to be patronizing, you would be able to make perfect sense of Klaus' post.

The Italian resistance, unlike her German and Japanese equivalents was a small but consistently active force, which enables Italy to see herself both as a victim of Fascism and as one of the Democratic victors.

Don't get your knickers in a twist, mate. Nobody's saying that Italy defeated the USA. Now, about your issues with authority figures...

Carlo Giuliani

I've deleted the phrase that stated that the death of Carlo Giuliani was an "execution", since it has proven to be false. The Carabinieri were surrounded by many violent anarchists that have seriously damaged their vehicle, and the shot were not aimed at Giuliani, so it wasn't an execution.

An image: http://www.repubblica.it/gallerie/online/politica/uccisione/5_g.jpg

Fully agree, Giuliani died in self-defence, he was going to throw a fire extinguisher against a Carabinieri car.

-There is a fuller sequence of photographs somewhere. I'll have a look for them and post links to them. There was also controversy at the time with regard to the Carabinieri singing fascist songs prior to a raid on a community centre being used as accomadation by protestors. The Carabinieri also were accused of brutality and planting evidence during the same raid. I'll go and find the sources and post links to them as well. Euand 15:19, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

- There is a link to the sequence of photo's on Carlo Giuliani's wikipedia page. Maybe it would be an idea to mention Genoa and Carlo's death in the criticisms section. More can be found on the brutality and the planting of evidence at: http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2006/02/333037.html Euand 15:38, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Images

While I like the license-plate aspect of Image:Carabinieri medley.jpg, I can't help but feel Image:Carab S Rome.jpg is a better and clearer image of the vehicle (rather than a closely cropped 'parked' version), and would support exchanging the images. Because it's my own photo, I'm hesitant to WP:Be Bold, and would like to see other's opinions - I'll give it a few days to see if there's any consensus either direction. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 15:50, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Not clear enough

I don't think that this article is clear enough on weather or not the carabinieri is a military organization tasked with police roles or a military-like federal police. I've always read that it was a branch of the Italian military with police roles, though correct me if Im wrong. Either way, I think there needs to be some clarification on that in the summary -ANK 71.244.159.152 (talk) 01:38, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

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