Talk:Changes (The Monkees album)

You're So Good to Me and You're So Good

Could You're So Good to Me be a 1970 adaption of the 1969 song outtake You're So Good by any chance? Both songs were recorded by The Monkees and their lyrics are at least comparable, if not exactly similar.

You're So Good - a Monkees song outtake written by Robert Stone which was recorded by The Monkees in 1969 featuring Micky Dolenz on lead vocals. Released in 1996 on the Monkees album Missing Links Volume Three.

You're So Good to Me - a Monkees song written by Jeff Barry and Bobby Bloom which was recorded by The Monkees in 1970 for the album Changes featuring David Jones on lead vocals. When I ripped the songs from my copy of the Monkees Changes on to the computer, the songwriting credit for You're So Good to Me was "Jeff Barry, Bobby Bloom, Robert Stone".

-- C.Syde (talk | contribs) 03:46, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Time and Time Again

"It says in a subsequently remixed form."

As far as I'm concerned the only differences between the one found on the Changes 1994 Reissue and the one on Missing Links is that the one found on Changes lacks the intro and ending dialogue found on the one from Missing Links. Also the moog synthesizer fades out a couple of seconds faster on the Changes mix than on the Missing Links mix.

Those are the only differences I can hear, but I guess that still counts as a remix. -- C.Syde (talk | contribs) 09:33, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Uncredited writers

Do you think we should add 'Kenny Lee Lewis', 'Chris McCarty' and 'Steve Miller' as co-writers to the song 'Midnight Train'? Because when I ripped the songs on to my computer from my copy of Changes, the songwriting credit for the song Midnight Train was - Micky Dolenz, Kenny Lee Lewis, Chris McCarty, Steve Miller. Other sites have confirmed that they are indeed uncredited co-writers of the song, but only Micky Dolenz received writers' credit.

The same with the song 'You're So Good to Me'. When I ripped that song on to my computer, the songwriting credit was - Jeff Barry, Bobby Bloom, Robert Stone. Other sites have confirmed that Robert Stone is indeed an uncredited co-writer of the song, but only Jeff Barry and Bobby Bloom received writers' credit. -- C.Syde (talk | contribs) 09:18, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Before I begin, I just want to say that I will come across as rattled here in this response, so I will apologise in advance as I don't like coming across that way to anyone, but I do find this topic a little frustrating, especially as it was started by one of the users who unintentionally caused confusion with the writing credits for The Monkees' 'She' in Wikipedia's 'More of the Monkees' article by stating that there were five writers based on what Windows Media Player and Allmusic were saying when in fact there were only two, but then kept deliberately reverting the incorrect information back in and insisting it stay there even after the other three writers' involvement was thoroughly 100% disproved by me and after a second user also tried to remove the incorrect unnecessary information from the article. I assumed that was just one off instance where the user made a mistake, but now it appears they instantly believed unreliable Windows Media Player/obscure website 'information' on more than one occasion and spread it across other Monkees articles on Wikipedia such as this one. I just want to get this out of the way first: Allmusic and Windows Media Player are NOT reliable sources. You seem to instantly believe them without giving them the benefit of a doubt, but they frequently get songwriting credits wrong for various artists, as they have done for the two songs you're highlighting here as well as 'She'.

With regards to 'Midnight Train', Kenny Lee Lewis, Chris McCarty and Steve Miller are not cowriters at all here. The reason you (and those unreliable sources you assume are correct and use as sources even though they're not) are getting totally mixed up is because the Steve Miller Band recorded and released a song called 'Midnight Train' on their 1993 album 'Wide River', but it's a completely different song to The Monkees' 'Midnight Train'. A quick listen to both tracks will verify this. So if you think those other three writers should be mentioned here, should Micky Dolenz also get a writing credit for the Steve Miller Band's 'Midnight Train' despite it being a totally different song to what The Monkees did? No, so Steve Miller and his bandmates shouldn't be mentioned here either. Even if we couldn't compare the two tracks by listening to them, it could still be easily disproved that they had any involvement with The Monkees' song: the Catalog of Copyright Entries Jan-June 1970 clearly lists Micky Dolenz as the sole writer - like I already said in the topic regarding 'She', if someone isn't credited there, they had no involvement, plain and simple. Micky Dolenz is also on record saying he wrote the song when he was about 16 and doesn't mention writing it with anyone else (source: liner notes for 'Music Box'). On top of that, the earliest I can find of Kenny Lee Lewis working with Steve Miller or Chris McCarty is the early 1980s, so how on earth would all three have had any involvement with writing a song together with Micky Dolenz that not only was published in 1970, but was demoed in 1967 and written as far back as 1961, if they hadn't even started working together yet? Quite simply, because they didn't. So basically, the reason Steve Miller, Kenny Lee Lewis and Chris McCarty are not and should not be credited here is because the 'Midnight Train' they cowrote is a totally unrelated song of the same name that was made several decades after The Monkees' song, and you, Windows Media Player and Allmusic are accidentally mixing them together and crediting all four of them as writers for one song. This also applies to the 'Headquarters' page, which talks about the demo version of the track. On a side note, it only took me a couple of minutes to simply look this up and get all this verified legit information from multiple sources, so it's not like it could only be found after hours of scouring through articles and interviews.

With regards to 'You're So Good to Me', once again you're saying that "other sites have confirmed" that the song was "indeed" cowritten by Robert/Bob Stone (best known for writing Cher's hit single 'Gypsys, Tramps & Thieves'). However, a quick look at the Catalog of Copyright Entries Jan-June 1970, and it only lists Jeff Barry and Bobby Bloom as the song's writers - again, please don't state that you have confirmation from other websites or resources about these 'facts' if said websites/resources you are using as sources are unreliable and can be disproved easily like this. Now I don't know if the song here was adapted from Bob Stone's 'You're So Good', especially seeing as the titles are fairly similar, but there's no evidence I have found to confirm that's the case, so I don't think it should be mentioned in the article as it's just speculation and it's just going to confuse people if there's no confirmation from any official sources (for the record, I've heard both songs and to me neither song sounds alike, so at this point in time I'm willing to believe that the song here was not an adaptation of the outtake but was an unrelated song that Bob Stone had no involvement in, hence him not being credited on the album or the Catalog of Copyright Entries, and that Windows Media Player/Allmusic have once again simply mixed the writing credits for both songs up together by accident due to the similar titles and the fact that both songs are by the same group). This also applies to the 'Missing Links Volume 3' page, which talks about the Bob Stone-penned outtake.

In short, no, these other artists should not be credited as cowriters because they weren't involved with either song to begin with.

As I said above and in the discussion regarding 'She', Windows Media Player and websites like Allmusic that frequently get songwriting credits wrong are not reliable sources, so in future please refrain from being absolutely sure that they are and waving them around as such when making edits (if you've done similar things on other articles, I would actually suggest you go back and have another look at them to make sure how reliable your edits actually are) and quite frankly I think the incorrect bits about the other writers should be removed altogether, not just on this article but the others too, including 'She'. You might think it "warrants mentioning" in the articles and you keep saying "several sites and sources" claim these things, but in reality it's just drawing attention to an issue that didn't even exist to begin with until you brought it up and tried to make it sound like a big deal when to literally everyone else it's clearly just incorrect information that they never even contested (aside from Windows Media Player and Allmusic, the other "several sites and sources" you mentioned that I know about consist of a few obscure wikis hardly anyone visits that just repeat the same wrong information from the other places - this wrong information probably stemmed from someone or their computer confusing both sets of songs together). Even having the articles amended to say it's wrong still wouldn't cut it, I think - like I said, it would still just be drawing attention and bringing unnecessary out of nowhere speculation to something that wasn't an issue or in dispute to begin with (none of the trustworthy official sources I mentioned speculate on the songwriting credits as they have done their actual research and as a result never encountered this 'issue', and they far outnumber the obscure, clearly incorrect "several sites and sources" you mentioned and are read/visited by lots more people, especially by fans of the group who want to know about the songs' histories from those who were there or from those who have done their research), so what's the point of bringing it up in the first place? It needs removing completely.

On a side note, there is one uncredited writer that should be mentioned on the 'Headquarters' and 'Missing Links Volume 3' articles, and that is the cowriter of 'She'll Be There'. I've noticed that both articles only list one writer, Sharon Sheeley, for writing the song while the Catalog of Copyright Entries Jan-June 1965 lists Raul Abeyta as a cowriter. I'm not sure who originally listed Sharon Sheeley on both articles seeing as the writers are listed as unknown on both releases, but I can confirm the song listed in the Catalog of Copyright Entries is the same one The Monkees performed - there's a recording of the same song by Delaney Bramlett that was released on a compilation of Sharon Sheeley songs - so Raul Abeyta should also be credited for the song on both articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.43.44.13 (talk • contribs)

We should not be using unreliable sources for writing credits. Agree with IP 82.43.44.13 who makes a good case. Binksternet (talk) 18:59, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Allmusic reference

Regarding edits made by C.Syde65, I submit that we should not refer to the AllMusic reference for any statement about Steve Miller and his band credited for writing one song. The reference contradicts itself, with the perfectly good prose review by Tim Sendra saying "Apart from one track written by Dolenz (the goofy country rock novelty 'Midnight Train'..." contradicted by the tracklist listing Dolenz/Lewis/McCarty/Miller. According to Wikipedia:WikiProject Albums/Sources, the prose review is the reliable part of the AllMusic website, so we should just ignore the stuff that's wrong. It would be against the no original research policy to tell the reader that some references are wrong, since none of our references say that the other ones are wrong. Instead, we should simply tell the reader that Dolenz wrote the song "Midnight Train". At most, we can leave a hidden note warning future editors about the confusion with Lewis, McCarty and Miller. Binksternet (talk) 05:38, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

A hidden warning note could very well serve as a compromise, since it just doesn't seem right to eliminate the information entirely, since this is the sort of information that readers and editors should know about in-case they somehow end up believing that Lewis, McCarty and Miller co-wrote the song. This information is on multiple sites but I don't think any of them declare that Lewis, McCarty and Miller did not co-write the song. I would have responded sooner but my Wikipedia connection was playing up so I couldn't respond as fast as I would have liked to, as I was held up. ― C.Syde (talk | contribs) 05:56, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

Unsourced information

• The stereo mix is almost completely in mono. The tambourine is slightly more prominent in one channel than in the other.
• The mix presented here is slightly different than on Missing Links. The opening and ending dialogues are removed, and the song fades out at the end, whereas the mix on Missing Links does not fade. The moog also doesn't appear in this mix until after the interlude, whereas in the mix on Missing Links, the moog can be heard during all verses, and the interlude. The moog is also more restrained in this mix than in the mix on Missing Links.

I would provide sources for these facts, but the problem is that the site that contained the information on it is temporarily unavailable. It was this site to be exact. And a very valuable site, which really annoys me that it's currently inaccessible since it contained valuable data and sources for referencing. ― C.Syde (talk | contribs) 05:56, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

Many websites can be accessed at the Wayback Machine even if they are defunct or temporarily out of service. See this example, for instance. But the Monkees Mixography website hosts user-generated content, which makes it unreliable at Wikipedia according to WP:USERG. Binksternet (talk) 06:11, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, I mustn't have managed to access it since I was unable exactly how to get there using the Wayback Machine. ― C.Syde (talk | contribs) 06:15, 12 June 2017 (UTC)