Talk:Cherry Grove Plantation

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Inaccurrracies.[edit]

This article is filled with so many inaccuracies, I am astonished. It has succeeded in compiling several errors that have appeared in print elsewhere. Jacob Surget owned Cole Hill, not Cherry Grove. His brother James (the elder) owned Cherry Grove, and the James (the younger) who is described as living out there by the time of the Civil War owned Cherry Grove and was Jacob's nephew. So as far as the photograph is concerned, it appears to be some men hung in a sawmill?? I know of no sawmill at Cherry Grove. Of course that may be an image of the executions that continued at Pharsalia Race Track, but the executions that took place at Cherry Grove (not Jacob Surget's plantation at all) took place from trees, so this is A)not a picture of CHerry Grove and B) not Jacob Surget's plantation. Also I am not sure where the D'Hubert surname for Catherine Hubbard came from. Mrs. Surget was not a Frenchwoman. She was Dutch and came from the Hudson River Vslley in New York.Digro11 (talk) 12:37, 8 May 2014 (UTC) digro11[reply]

I added the photo, as well as a reliable source for the caption (New York Times). If you have more reliable information, or if what I added isn't correct, I encourage you to correct it. Magnolia677 (talk) 13:03, 8 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The page is fully referenced! Is the published research that was cited wrong?Zigzig20s (talk) 13:20, 8 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Umm, yes the published information is wrong. The D'Hubert surname for my great great great great grandmother is a family legend at best. One story goes that they were Huguenots who ended up in the Netherlands prior to going to New York. The "D'" honorific at the beginning of the name is particularly..speculative. Pierre Surget had a son named James and confusingly enough another son named Jacob (both of which would be "Jacques" in French, among other children. James Surget (Jacob's brother) died in 1853 as is clearly visible on his headstone--as is the "Hubbard" surname for Catherine-- google Cherry Grove cemetery). James Pierre Surget the younger, my great great grandfather, Jacob's nephew owned Cherry Grove after 1853. This is clearly in the public records and I am not sure how several otherwise reputable historians have continued to compound this error. The photo may be of the three men that were hung at a neighboring plantation the next day. But there is no saw mill at Cherry Grove and we still have nearly all the outbuildings... Those poor 10 men were hung from trees near what was then the front gate. I would invite any of you or the New York Times to come and look for any such building next time I am visiting the family cemetery...Digro11 (talk) 14:24, 8 May 2014 (UTC)digro11[reply]

Oh and Cherry Grove is on Second Creek out on Kingston Road in the County. Unless they have substantially redrawn the city limits in recent years, I don't think it is in "South East Natchez" but what would I know :)Digro11 (talk) 14:41, 8 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I would be in favour of removing this picture; even if it turns out to have been taken there, it is extremely controversial and I'm not sure it looks very encyclopedic...but that's debatable (and political). Would you be able to take some pictures of the plantation (main building, etc.) and add them to Wikimedia Commons to waive the copyright please? As for the referenced info, I think we should keep it as it is unless/until we find other citations which back up what you are suggesting. I will try to see if Pierre Surget or other planters from the Surget family are sufficiently prominent to have their own page(s) (I think they might be--hence the red links). Thank you.Zigzig20s (talk) 14:44, 8 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I can only imagine what additional bizarre stories confusing various aunts, uncles, and cousins may then be laid at our feet. I have some pictures tucked away I will upload after work. The picture is upsetting, that said, such an event did take place at Cherry Grove. But that is not an image of the event of Cherry Grove, and I wish people would stop blaming my uncle of several generations back for the sins of his nephew, my great great grandfather. Digro11 (talk) 14:56, 8 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Here is one reputable source that supports my contentions concerning the ownership of the property--http://pdfhost.focus.nps.gov/docs/NRHP/Text/83000949.pdf...The names and dates are on the headstones which are easily found on google images although one website has James the younger being born nearly the same year as his daughter...I am the son of the current owner of the property and a direct Surget descendent. The only reason historians have been able to publish what they have is we have been more than generous with our family papers. In addition, I am a professional in a Historic Preservation-related field as is the current owner of the property, and we both know how to and have gone through the family records in the Adams County courthouse. When I have time, I will be correcting this page. It can't be any worse manners than any of this has been so far :) Digro11 (talk) 16:09, 8 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Please refrain from making what may be construed as personal attacks. The page is fully referenced, but I agree that it needs to be expanded. Please only add referenced info. Thank you.Zigzig20s (talk) 18:55, 8 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The photo of the hanged men [1] was taken from this site [2]. On closer examination, the photo does not specifically state that it is of the hanged men discussed in the article, and that was my oversight when I added the photo. I removed the photo from the article. Magnolia677 (talk) 19:42, 8 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, there is now a photo of the property in Wikipedia commons...As I said above I am a professional, have academic training, and write for a living. If I was going to post without citing reputable sources, the article would have been rewritten by 8:05 this morning. As to who and what Jacob Surget was up to, and where he lived, I would refer you to William Kaufman Scarborough's 2003 Master of the Big House: Elite Slaveholders of the Mid-Nineteenth-Century South published by LSU Press. I enjoyed the Silence and Tumult book by Winthrop Jordan and thought it a very important work, but he did get the ownership of Cherry Grove thoroughly muddled and this muddling has been passed along from then on despite other scholars' publications and the current owner's own scholarly presentationsDigro11 (talk) 23:23, 8 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that is unfortunate, and hopefully will be corrected with the right citations...Have a look at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest to make sure you don't fall into any trap. Great to see a picture of the house! Do we know who the architect was?Zigzig20s (talk) 06:16, 9 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]