Talk:Chinese tickle torture

Well it is an improvement but do you mind if I get rid of the link? Anything that produces "chinese tickle torture Hardcore Explicit Bondage! Torture and Pain! Extreme Erotica! Pain and Pleasure blur!" on the first page is, I think, not really the sort thing that should be here. Call me old-fashioned! Lao Wai 21:03, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Link is gone. Just left there at first to prove there were indeed over 300 internet hits. -Husnock 22:33, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

I never doubted it. As soon as you claimed there were I looked. I think I mentioned that as well. This is not the point. This link clearly has nothing to do with China or with Chinese tickle torture - like the vast majority of the ones Google brings up. It is just there to make a larger number of searchs bring up their website. Which, I assume having not looked at any of them, is fairly hard core and generally nasty. So it is a little disingunuous to claim 350 hits when you've probably just got 350 websites trying to attract Google's attention with subject line fodder. Maybe not, but then I'm not going to cruise those websites looking. Someone might not understand my interest. Lao Wai 11:23, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

I've read accounts of the "Chinese Tickle Torture" in mainstream sources ever since I was a kid. In particular I recall an article in Popular Science magazine from the early sixties which described the Chinese method of torturing prisoners by "tying them down and coating the soles of their feet with honey and then bringing animals to lick them". I beleive, although without the article in front of me I can't be sure, that anthropologist Margaret Mead was given as the source of this information. As far as whether the attribution of this form of punishment to the Chinese is or is not racist is concerned, isn't the issue really accuracy? Is it true or isn't it? If it's true then it's no more "racist" than saying that Europeans once burned people at the stake for witchcraft. -posted by anon user July 2005

Could you sign your posts with four tildas (~) please? If you could find me a reference to the Popular Science magazine I would be happier, but I have never denied, as Mr Husnock points out, that Americans believe this to be true. We have an article (of, in my opinion, extremely dubious credibility) on goat-licking already so this is "known". Just no link to China. I still refuse to believe it. If you want to hurt someone you beat them on the feet, you put electrodes on their testicles, you hang them by their arms, you don't pussyfoot about with feathers. I suspect if MM had said it it would come up on a Google search but I would really appreciate any search you did of her collected works for a real reference. The real issue is accuracy, and I think this is inaccurate. The racism implicit in talking about Chinese torture makes it more offensive, not a reason for deletion in itself. After all if all Black men did want to rape White women it would not be racism to say so. Should Wikipedia have an article that claims Black men do? Lao Wai 08:24, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

That was an anon user which is why it wasnt signed. I respect your views and have tried to make it clear that this merely a term that exists. You could probably add something into the article about racist uses of this term. Much like you pointed out with Chinese Fire Drill. I dont see this as insulting Chinese, quite the opposite. We of the US owe much to the Chinese. The development of California is full of Chinese American history and the expansion of the railroads in the USA could not have been accomplshed without thousands of Chinese immigrants. And of course, the Bruce Lee and Kung Fu culture of the 1960s and 70s can be traced to Chinese origins. So, speak your mind. Put it in the article. When other projects of mine get done, I will work on expanded actually apperance sof this term in media and literature. -Husnock 18:39, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

To be strictly accurate it wasn't me who pointed out the Chinese Fire Drill. It is one thing to say a particular Jew is cheap. It becomes more offensive when everyone says it about all Jews. Look at the torture category - no less than five articles are about Chinese torture. Four of them, if I remember correctly, have China in the title. One of them is historically accruate. There is no article named American torture nor does the word American appear in the Iraq/Gitmo ones. The reason is most likely that Americans have this odd fantasy about China and torture. It is a perverse and offensive stereotype that ought to be fought. You don't seem to see that as a problem. You of the US should be very careful making the sort of claims you have just made. Some people (and I am not one) might find that, at best, patronising. Sure Chinese Americans contributed to the building of California and the Transcontinental Railway. But then African-Americans contributed so much to the building of America in general. If it wasn't for their forced labor who would have had time to write the Constitution? Like to thank them for it too? Mentioning Bruce Lee just makes things worse. The problem with speaking my mind is that I object to the very existence of the article and especially the title. I will not be happy until it is gone. I am fairly mollified at the moment by the toned down version but the world will be a better place when it is removed. Slurs do not need to be perpetuated. Lao Wai 18:52, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Knee How! I hope you didnt take *offense* at the above statement! It was not meant to be so. I merely say that you should voice your views in the article, put a line in there about the term possibly promoting racism or whatever the point is to be made. The above Chinese references are actually from a published US Federal Government study on diversity listing things which are commonly overlooked in U.S. history books. Chinese contributions in the Western 19th century US was high on the list as was African American slave labor in the southern US prior to the Civil War. All subjects which Wikipedia can now be bold and expand upon. Be happy to be here! Sorry you dont like Bruce Lee, I never cared for him much either. Enter the Dragon is the only film he made that was worth a hoot. Have no fear Lao Wai, there is no enemy here. Or you Mainland or Taiwan, btw? Just curious. I am central USA. -Husnock 20:01, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

I did not take offense and clearly said so. Laughing at the poor English of some Chinese people is hardly going to improve the situation. My view, as I said, is that the article should not exist. Exactly how does contributing anything to it make the situation anything other than worse? I am mildly indifferent to what you have taken away from a US government publication on Chinese Americans. It is not true that all subjects can be bold and expanded. Wikipedia has some guidelines. One of them, obviously, is no made-up stuff. No unsourced stuff either. You begin to see the problem with this article? You misunderstand my comment about Bruce Lee which was, of course, actually about you. The question remains, given this article serves no purpose, has no evidence to support it and is mildly offensive, why does it continue to exist? Lao Wai 20:23, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

As stated waaaaaay at the top of the article, the source of this is over 300 internet hits on the topic as well as the titles referenced on the talk page of Tickling. I am very sorry you feel this way. I say go for a VFD if you'd like. I have been to your fine country three times and find it a very fascinating place. This article is not meant to insult you, the Chinese people, nor do I feel this article is fiction as the term does exists. Pardon my use of Knee How, it is one of the very few words I know in Chinese. Tschi Chen is another (spelling?) I think it means goodbye? Your english is by far better than my Chinese! So, Ive done all I can here. Go for a VFD if you'd like. It would probably strengthen the article as it would draw other comments. -Husnock 20:34, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Um, what system of romanization is "knee how" in? Just asking as somebody born and raised in Hong Kong, now living in the US, who has absolutely no idea.

I could state my personal opinion, but the point I'm trying to make is that there can be a disparity between the amount and quality of knowledge one has on a subject and the types of statement one feels that that knowledge entitles one to make. This is the basic problem playing out here, on both sides.

Perorative 10:21, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

As stated just next to the bit waaay at the top of the article, none of them refer to this in any meaningful way. Most of them are nonsense. Nor should an article be based on a search of websites that promise to show us real rape and torture. I have looked at the titles in the Tickling page and, as I have also said before, none of them provide a reference to this. All we have is your dim recollection of something you read in college, a few porn sites, and of course the wonderful Colonial Williamsburg theme park. You are wrong about my country and it is not relevant. My feelings are clear but they are not important either. The unsuitability of this article to Wikipedia is. Why are you so committed to it? It is a BDSM thing? How about we compromise and accept this term exists only as a figment of American culture, and in the whole bondage scene, and so remove the tags that link it to the torture pages? Or indeed anything that would even imply it was anything but a feature of popular American culture (if that is an appropriate word for a minor sexual practice among a sub-set of the sexually bizarre)? As for the VfD, well, let me put it this way, there are 1.3 billion or so Chinese some of whom have net access. There is one of you. No one else seems to care. How do you think the vote will go? The last Chinese-themed torture article went down without a single vote in its favour. Lao Wai 21:15, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Enough children. Run the vote for deletion and see what happens. I think Cheng Chong or what ever his name is is picking on Husnock. Husnock has tried to be nice and Who Flung Dung has done nothing but insult him. You talk big, so run the VFD. Enough is enough. -unsigned anon user

I must admit what I am reading above is getting pretty nasty. My FINAL word on this will be to just ask the other party to run a VFD if he feels so strongly. And no, I'm not into BDSM, I'm into Free Speech and do not attack or delete articles because I personally find them distasteful. -Husnock 21:28, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

"do not attack or delete articles because I personally find them distasteful" That's what the elitist superstructure is there for, amirite?

I agree it is getting pretty nasty but then it wasn't the anon user who started making silly comments about the English language ability of Chinese speakers. It is not yet time for a VfD because, as you point out, it exists as a term in American culture. I think I could find an article you have attacked because you find it personally distasteful, but that is not the point. If it was accurate my feelings would not matter. The problem is that it is a-historic and evidence-free and so should go - even if I liked the page. I still do not get your desire to protect this page. I do not care if you are into bondage. I was not trying to pass any sort of judgement on what you do in your private life. Admittedly, as far as I can see, you are the only person to vouch for the use of this torture in sexual play and you do seem a little invested, but I will let it go if you do not want to discuss it. The major flaw in your logic is that this has something to do with free speech. Obviously Wikipedia is not a place for the free exercise of free speech. It is a very narrow and restricted space. Articles ought to be accurate and relevant. I also think they should not be racially offensive, but I am happy to accept that some will be. This page is not accurate and it is not relevant to Wikipedia's aims. As promised above I will prune the tags a little and you can see what you think. Lao Wai 16:45, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

I like the change. You have be convinced this is not a China thing, more of a western society perception. The article should be expanded to include where the term actually started and I will try and find references. I encourage also putting something in here about the derogatory nature of the term and how, if at all, it is in fact used as a racial slur. BTW- I did not agree with what the anon said above! Very rude! -Husnock 17:36, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

"No historic evidence exists that it was actually ever practiced in ancient China and Chinese tickle torture is probably a total invention of western imagination"

Reports of death caused by tickling (in other places than China): http://groups.google.com/group/alt.multimedia.tk/msg/96c084a62f15ea80 Apokrif 18:40, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Ok, can you really be tickled to death? Is it truly a torture, I think it's a bit pleasent... but that's just me. --Knowlege: Life's greatest gift, or terrible curse, how do you use it...? (talk) 04:03, 24 February 2008 (UTC)