Talk:Cho Mi-yeon/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Notability

Which criteria of WP:NSINGER does she pass? "Pop/Stars" is officially attributed to entire G-Idle and not to her personally, so its not her solo work. Snowflake91 (talk) 23:00, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

She's a prominent member of two notable bands, (G)I-dle and K/DA. K/DA (and its hit single Pop/Stars) officially credits the entire G-Idle (even though only two out of six members performed) solely for legal reasons (she is under contract with Cube as part of G-Idle). As an individual member, her role in K/DA and Pop/Stars is no less significant than Madison Beer, Jaira Burns, or Jeon So-yeon. -Zanhe (talk) 00:39, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
I am of the opinion that "Pop/Stars" is considered her own solo work. She has a dedicated role "Ahri" just like Madison Beer's Evelynn and Jaira Burns' Kaisa. More importantly, Soyeon too has her own dedicated role as "Akali" where "Ahri" by Miyeon and "Akali" roles are separate entity, where these roles are weigh as much as Madison Beer's and Jaira Burn's. The name of G-Idle just like Zanhe pointed out, doesnt diminish the 2 gidle members importance in K/DA, they are there for separate roles and not as a duo. G-idle's name is only there due to contractual reasons. FakeMaknae (talk) 08:42, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
K/DA is not a real group you know, and Mi-yeon is not a member of a band that doesnt even exists in reality, the member of the virtual band is "K/DA Ahri", not Miyeon. She fails criteria 1 (only K/DA as a whole gets a lot of media coverage, not Miyeon individually) and criteria 6 (K/DA is a "vritual band", and even if we count it as a real thing – Ahri the fox is a member, not Miyeon). The only criteria she could maybe pass is #2, but its not her single, its a collaboration between 4 people, and as I said, officially entire G-Idle is signed under the song, so its not her song – the reason why its like that its not really important, even if its because of legal reasons, Miyeon's name is not even mentioned anywhere in the credits, only "Madison Beer, Jaira Burns, (G)-IDLE". Snowflake91 (talk) 09:45, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
K/DA is "virtual" only in a marketing sense, because it's created to promote a video game. As far as music is concerned, it's as real as any other band, and Miyeon's singing is as real as that of Beer and Burns. And that's what really matters. -Zanhe (talk) 19:07, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
No, Miyeon is not a member of the fictional LoL girl group, she only lend her voice to one of the characters, that doesnt make her "a member of two prominent bands". K/DA band members are ahri, akali, kai'sa and evelynn, not G-Idle members or Jaira. Snowflake91 (talk) 19:35, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
"She only lend her voice to one of the characters". As far as I know, voice is the most important thing for a singer, and there's nothing fictional about K/DA's music. If I were to play Pop/Stars on my phone (not that I would, I'm a rock fan), I would hear Miyeon's singing, regardless of whether she's credited as Ahri or G-Idle. On Wikipedia, we care about the reality, not labels. We call JK Rowling the author of The Cuckoo's Calling even if the book's cover says Robert Galbraith. -Zanhe (talk) 20:01, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
"On Wikipedia, we care about the reality, not labels" – thats original research then, if all credits are saying that the author of the song is "K/DA", like here, here, here or here, then "K/DA" is a singer, not the person whose voice you hear, Miyeon is not mentioned anywhere, only "K/DA" or "G-Idle" in the best case. Its like saying that its reality that the sky is blue because you checked it yourself, but the scientists would report that the sky is actually green and that would be included in majority of sources, what would be written on Wikipedia? The second option of course. Furthermore, the Billboard article reads "'League of Legends' Girl Group Earns Madison Beer, (G)I-DLE & Jaira Burns No. 1 on World Digital Song Sales Chart" and "The virtual pop quartet K/DA helps the acts conquer new chart territory & predicts a bright future for esports and music. Madison Beer, (G)I-DLE and Jaira Burns coming together as a super-pop group all in the name of League of Legends has produced a No. 1 hit" – again, Miyeon not mentioned. Snowflake91 (talk) 20:29, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
Snowflake91, you're an experienced editor, and you should be aware that Wikipedia is based on secondary, not primary sources such as itunes and spotify. Check out secondary sources such as Newsweek, Variety, and Polygon. They all look through the labels and credit the real singers such as Miyeon. To use your strange analogy, it's LoL/Riot Games that's calling the sky green, and the scientists pointing out it's actually blue. -Zanhe (talk) 20:50, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
I will add here that WP:NSINGER is an ancillary notability guideline that is only relevant when it is uncertain whether the singer in question would otherwise pass the base and ultimate indicator of notability, WP:GNG. As Miyeon has "received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject", as evident in the sourcing already present in the article, she passes GNG unequivocally, and NSINGER becomes moot. Satellizer el Bridget (Talk) 12:23, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
Not really, all sources in the article are either covering K/DA as a whole or G-Idle as a whole, she is not independently covered with activities outside of her band. Snowflake91 (talk) 12:40, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
User:Snowflake91, I agree with you completely. Zahne seems to think this talk page gives him consensus to restore the article. Drmies (talk) 01:47, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
(edit conflict)@Drmies: FakeMaknae, Satellizer and myself (and implicitly, the article creator Katietran and major contributor Perghhh) all agree that she is notable per WP:GNG and WP:SINGER#6. Snowflake91 was the only dissenter, and you're now the second. Why do you act like there's consensus to redirect the article [1]? BTW, please spell my username correctly. -Zanhe (talk) 02:02, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
Satellizer claims there is coverage but provides no proof. You claim she is a "prominent" member of her band, but provide no evidence. What FakeMaknae is trying to say is completely unclear. The only one here who has pulled in some sources and said something meaningful about it is Snowflace, and the only thing you can point at in response is "here are some links where she is credited"--which says nothing at all. And what I don't understand from you, someone who has produced some meaningful content, is how you look at those sources without shaking your head. Drmies (talk) 02:08, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
Please read the notes on WP:SINGER: "Generally speaking, in a small ensemble, all people are reasonably prominent, but, for example, being members of the chorus (not prominent) in two Broadway musicals (dozens of people involved) usually wouldn't be enough." What FakeMaknae was trying to say is that she is a prominent member of two bands. -Zanhe (talk) 02:18, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

Alexanderlee, what do you make of this? Zanhe, I see no proof whatsoever that this person is a prominent member of one, let alone two bands. Your most prominent source in the article is a video (a video!) from the company that she is signed with, and the rest is the usual weak stuff. Drmies (talk) 01:50, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

@Drmies: I respect Alexanderlee as a reputable editor, but your selective notifications of certain editors while omitting other previously involved users strongly smacks of WP:VOTESTACK. -Zanhe (talk) 02:11, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
Oh please. I don't even know what Alexanderlee is all about--just that they just made this edit, which shows common sense. Omitting--didn't you tag them already? You found some acronyms. I got some too: RS, GNG, and the word "prominent", for which you have yet to submit any evidence from reliable sources. Drmies (talk) 02:16, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
Personally I agree the singer isn't notable. Snowflake provided valid points; she voices a character, she herself isn't in the fictional group. Mentioning it in the other voice contributors actors' articles can’t be compared in my opinion, as the other singers are independently notable. Too many articles, especially of K-pop singers, seem to being created despite a lack of notability because they very loosely fit some point of a guideline, despite a lack of significant media coverage which discusses the individual in depth and not as some release promotion. For example, this article claiming No. 6 of WP:NSINGER for being a member of an actual group, and voicing a character seems very loose to me. Alex (talk) 02:37, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
Another point stemming from No. 6 that seems to happen is that people see a group has two members who have an article, and seem to think "quick, two of them have an article therefore all the members can have one!" Alex (talk) 02:37, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
When it comes to singing, voice is what actually matters. I've expounded on that extensively above and do not want to repeat the points. -Zanhe (talk) 02:42, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
Miyeon is still not covered in-depth in any of those sources (unlike her bandmate Jeon So-yeon, which was also lending her voice for KDA), so basically the article exists because people are thinking that she is a member of K/DA, the virtual band, though passing criteria for being a member of two different prominent bands. But the problem is that she is NOT a member of the band, their members are virtual league characters. Saying that Miyeon is a member of the vritaul band is like saying that Emma Watson is a student of Hogwarts or something. Snowflake91 (talk) 10:08, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
That's an invalid analogy. Hogwarts is a fictional place that exists only in the plot of the Harry Potter series, whereas K/DA is a real group with real performances and real music that tops real-world charts. Many people seem to be fooled by marketing spiel and fail to realize that virtual bands are real entities except with fictional characters played by real people (similar to films in this aspect). Denying Miyeon's membership in the band is like saying Emma Watson was not a cast member in Harry Potter films, but Hermione was. As I pointed out to you months ago, most secondary sources credit Miyeon as a member of K/DA, not the fictional Ahri. -Zanhe (talk) 19:17, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

Have to agree with Snowflake91 - WP:GNG basic notability guidelines wants significant coverage that are independent of the subject. There is no significant coverage here, she is mentioned in regards to (G)Idle and K/DA only. If her role were in-depth in regards to creation of said groups or musical career, there would be ample sources to report it. And there just isn't here. Evaders99 (talk) 19:59, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

  • This is emblematic of K-pop editing in so many ways. GIdle has three EPs and four singles, which, from the perspective of NBAND, is pretty minimal, to put it mildly (but of course there is a list of songs, which is even more ridiculous than the separate discography). So we're talking about a band with two dozen songs. Then, the supposed "prominent" contributor to this band has not a single in-depth reference that proves any kind of prominence, and some sort of additional prominence should come from doing voice work for a virtual group that has produced one song, and from singing on a song by an artist who has produced one single album (Hangzoo), a song that apparently went nowhere. Notability in this area is often so thin you can scratch it with your fingernail, and often inflated with circular references and templates, but this is especially egregious in this case. Drmies (talk) 22:25, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
  • WP:SINGER doesn't care about how many albums/songs a group has released, but whether they chart or not. GIdle's EPs and singles have almost all charted in multiple countries, and KD/A's only single has charted in like 20 different countries, from Korea and China to the US and even Hungary, and that's what makes them notable. And Miyeon is notable for being a major member of both groups. There's nothing circular about this logic. Even Billie Eilish, probably the biggest singer of the year, only has released one album and one notable EP. -Zanhe (talk) 06:50, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
But where did you get an idea that Miyeon is a K/DA member? From the source that you provided: "Ahri is a nine-tailed fox mage League champion — and is one of the most well known champs in the game. She gets all the flashiest skins and has a ton of fans. Her abilities in-game feature a lot of dashing around, and a charm, which forces enemies to walk toward her, in love. Miyeon of real-world K-pop group (G)I-dle sings her parts in the song." So where does it says that Miyeon is a member of K/DA? Snowflake91 (talk) 10:59, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
That's how we've always treated real members of "virtual" bands, see Ron Dante and Toni Wine of The Archies, and Damon Albarn et al in Category:Gorillaz members, for example. In the specific case of K/DA, sources such as Newsweek explicitly call the real singers members of the band, and make it abundantly clear that they actually sing and perform for the virtual band (accompanied with a video of their performance). -Zanhe (talk) 19:43, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
I don't understand the comparison there. K/DA is a promotional tool for a game (as stated in the article), Gorillaz is not. Are you also going to claim that Ross Bagdasarian Sr., Ross Bagdasarian Jr. or Justin Long are members of Alvin and the Chipmunks? I'm still yet to see significant coverage of Mi-Yeon as an individual, outside of either group. Alex (talk) 20:21, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
What matters here is whether a group is notable, not its purpose of existence (a cynic would argue that all bands are created for the financial or personal benefits of certain corporations/individuals). If you believe K/DA is not independently notable from the game, that could be discussed at that article's talk page and/or AFD for possible merger or deletion. As long as K/DA is regarded as notable, then there's no question Miyeon satisfies WP:SINGER#6, and there's no need for further significant coverage outside of both groups: the whole rationale behind WP:SINGER#6 is that when a singer is a prominent member of two notable groups, she is deemed to be sufficiently independent of either to be individually notable. As for Alvin and the Chipmunks, of course the Bagdasarians were members of the virtual band. According to the article, the band was originally called "David Seville and the Chipmunks", with David Seville being Bagdasarian Sr.'s stage name (and Bagdasarian Jr. took over the role after his father's death). -Zanhe (talk) 01:47, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Zanhe asked me to take a look at Korean sources to see if she has independent coverage... I'm not particularly familiar with Miyeon or (G)-Idle, however she does see decent Korean-language coverage when she makes public appearances or appears on idol brand rankings, however he coverage is often muddled with other public figures with her same name, vs. someone like Jimin from BTS who pretty much dominates a "Park Jimin" news search. Upon the release of K/DA she did get considerably more solo coverage, possibly enough for her to scrape by during a DR, though I am not fully certain. Should that arise I'd be willing to go more in depth, though as I'm not familiar with the topic vs. other idols it is somewhat harder. DanielleTH (Say hi!) 22:31, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

@DanielleTH: Thanks for your effort. I was hoping you could find reliable Korean sources to support the currently unsourced content. It was originally sourced to this video on Cube Entertainment's official YouTube channel, but the source was removed because YouTube is deemed unreliable. -Zanhe (talk) 00:05, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
@Zanhe: I'll do my best to source what I can. DanielleTH (Say hi!) 00:06, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Cho Mi-yeon

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Cho Mi-yeon's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "gaondigitalchart":

  • From Jeon So-yeon: "Gaon Digital Chart". Gaon Chart (in Korean). Korea Music Content Industry Association. Archived from the original on June 2, 2016. Retrieved September 28, 2018.
  • From (G)I-dle discography: Gaon Weekly Digital Chart:

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 06:12, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

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